Scott details the issues people have with "boring" killers
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Nope you turn a corner and i shoot with deathslinger i will miss you but with huntress sadly for you you are hit.
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looping is the basis to determine one's skill in this game, as its the only thing to do.
if you dont like looping as a killer and would rather just instantly win or expect survivors to just hold W, you should probably be in brown ranks
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Have you ever played DBD?
"Run in a zig zag" - thats not how this game works, you lose distance, you get hit. Theres plenty of clips from zubat alone with him just ADSing repeatedly and jokingly saying "outplayed" after they dodge a shot they have no way of knowing isnt coming.
Having skill thrown out the window for guessing isnt good gameplay
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To me it seems the whole argument "boring because doesn't involve skill" considers only looping as a skill while there are many others.
For example he talks a lot about the Deathslinger, which I am maining lately, and I can tell there are a lot of survivors who know when you're about to shoot and dodge at the right moment, know how to move to make your aim more difficult, know how to use pallets to not get downed etc. Those are all additional skills those survivors learned instead of learning the default looping and call it a day.
I almost agree on the Spirit, but honestly the fact Iron Will is not used as much as it should (since it's imo the best survivor perk) makes me not root for those that complain about Spirit and sounds.
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You hide at a gen and i shoot you, i hit, some for the loop spots that doesnt hide all of the survivors, with huntress those will just straight up eat your hatchets
There are pros and cons depending the situation
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That's wrong.
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Lmao sounds crazy, can you share such a clip :D
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The Killers I find utterly boring to play against are:
- Freddy -- I tend to see one build on him, regardless of the add ons. Some mix of Pop, BBQ, and some other garbage. His current kit just allows him to rush across the map with no downsides(aside from personal mess ups). Couple that with Pop and you often end up 3-genning yourselves because he just doesn't let you capitalize on him chasing someone else. Whenever I run into Freddy I just expect a boring match, I'm sometimes surprised by something different, but it's usually more of the same.
- Legion -- Similar to Freddy, I'll see them running a very similar build, and their iridescent add ons are some of the most obnoxious in the game. I'm never scared that I can't tell where they are when they go into Frenzy, I'm usually just like "OKAY BUT CAN THE VOLUME BE ANY LOUDER? NO? OKAY I GUESS I'-- well at least I get a break for NOPE HERE WE GO AGAIN." They almost always have Thanatophobia & Sloppy Butcher, I'm honestly surprised when I don't see them use either.
- Spirit -- Some games can be fun, but most are just guessing. I don't like that, while in phase, she can both hear you, see your blood marks, and see your scratch marks. I feel like it should just be one of those. Being in phase feels like there's no downside to her. With Legion, at least you can't see scratch marks in Frenzy Mode. But with Spirit, yeah sure you can't attack them while phasing, but it's like a better version of Wraith, where you can pop out at any time and attack immediately.
I don't quite have very many issues with others, Bubba can be facecamping bags of sand that really bum the game out, but when he's played not by a garbage human being he can be fun to go against.
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The thing is, he outright dismisses the fact that the reason people call killers boring is because they suck against them. He dimisses it as a "terrible argument". When, aside from Deathslinger (and spirit to an extent), that's really what it is. When it comes to Freddy, Oni, Nurse etc, which is who people complain about, they just refuse to adapt.
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He's on point about player participation.
Spirit is boring because once you're injured she can just teleport over to your wounded noises. There's no mindgaming that.
Though I dsagree with the part about Billy. No one is going to not use a killers add-ons. Base kit is such a poor argument when it comes to killer powers.
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If OhTofu killer played against 4 OhTofu survivors, i'm betting on the 4 OhTofu survivors.
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Post edited by Rizzo on4
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This right here captures why nonstandardised TR's should be a thing. Deathslinger would be borderline underpowered with a normal TR, because his ranged attack can't actually down you and it would be easy to constantly keep yourself behind cover. However, his base TR is still too much warning and his M&A TR is just unfair. They should have designed him so that his TR is at 28m. Monitor takes that down to 20, and his max range is 18. Still strong, still stealthy, but now he isn't a stealth killer.
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I play deathslinger as a huntress main and Deathslinger isn't weak if you can aim, hes weak if you're trash at hitting shots. Huntress is weak if you can't land hatchets. the difference about huntress and slinger is that huntress has a huge hum that gives her position away while Deathslinger with MAA has a tiny TR that can sneak up on survivors and get a free hits which is satisfying to be able to do as killer but feels sooo cheap and BS as survivor. windows are free hits and there are some walls on junk tile pallet loops on asylum/father campbells chappel you can hit over which some people don't know about that shouldn't be able to do and its been in the game since slinger came out.
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What makes Demo unfun to go against and mid tier? I'd say he's the 2nd most fun to go against after Billy and low A-high B tier. His power isn't uncounterable and he actually has mindgames to it with risks for both sides, aswell as a pretty fair traversal mechanic with counterplay and decision making
Edit: nevermind, somehow I read deathslinger as demogorgon
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In the current state? Probably. But it's possible balance it.
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My bad, I forgot demo. Yeah, he is fun to go against however he is not really that strong imo. He can easily get genrushed like clown and can get hard cocked by certain maps
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How dare anyone want a modicum of balance in the game
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I kinda have to disagree with you looking at some of them. Ghostface e.g. is actually a fun stelath killer to verse, if his reveal mechanic wouldn't be bugged e.g. His core design isn't really problematic though.
Same for Pyramid Head, whose only issue is that his ability invites Killer to tunnel etc. Current Legion is fine (Old was horrible though). I can understand the others though. I personally think that Plague is even the "worst" designed killer currently, because her power makes her games quite one-dimensional.
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A short time after the live release of Oni (a 90-110° flick was possible, the 180° got patched out in the PTB) Scott started to post some videos that should prove that Oni is op. "50 oni 4ks in a row" for example. To be fair, oni was really good at that time, but got also played by a damn good player with thousands of hours.
So after people like tofu and ayrun agreed the devs nerfed his flick to a maximum of 40°. Many, and i mean MANY people complained about it after that and a month later he got a fix 90° flick.
He's still complaining about spirit being uncounterable btw.
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Because demo has an indication that he's about to use his power and you can still dodge it, while deathslinger just istantly shoots with no time for the survivor to react and also he can just spam M2 to zone the survivor
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Don't know who this guy is but all his argument consists of is insinuating killers are boring if their attack, ability or movement isn't telegraphed to the survivor. He uses clown as an example of a boring killer even though he explains exactly how his ability gets telegraphed. So I'm not sure he even understands what makes a killer exciting.
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What about Demogorgon? I think he is great!
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Demo also has portals to traverse the entire map, something which Deathslinger really struggles at. It balances out.
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Only thing to do? Maybe in context of keeping yourself alive vs the killer in a chase. In general, there is alot more to do than just that. You should be taking note of the position you are currently in and the resources you have to use, knowing which gens to focus on, to avoid a three gen. That and if you have no idea who the killer is, you should be looking around to keep an eye out, just in case it's wraith, ghostface or someone else sneaking up on you. For you will only be making the ghostface laughing like a evil villain, while they are busy stalking you and you don't take the time to look around for you think you are safe, just due to not hearing a terror radius.
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That video might as well read, "I want to 1vs1 killer and I expect to win every chase against the killer". Survivors consistently get free positional second chances from exhaust perks with very minimal counter-play and this thread is about deathslinger getting hits with M&A because they can't look out for a big tall dude with cowboy hat or react to the TR bgm playing. Sounds really pathetic to me. Realistically, the killer is suppose to win every chase but every chase he wins should always come at a cost if opposition plays it well. A large reason to why people enjoy playing against these very basic killers... Trapper,Wraith,Demogorgon, heck even Billy has to do with how much control they have in a chase. Its almost like your expected to get iridescent chaser against these guys if you don't make a mistake as survivor and against a coordinate team, that's an easy loss.
A big reason I enjoy playing against Huntress for example has to do with the fact that you can't really tell if the huntress is going disrespect pallet or predict your pallet throw that results in a hit. With Spirit, you have to listen to her footsteps and make accurate guesses to waste her phase walk. With deathslinger, it is often about baiting shots, understanding his orientation, using LOS against him and in general being a tricky target to hit. One of my favourites killers to face in the game is Infinity EV3 Myers and part of the reason why I like him has to do with his fast vaulting and extended lunge. Most of the time, your able to get the pallet if a killer decides to vault as vaulting is really slow, but with Myers, those windows become unsafe and they are real mindgame themselves. These mechanics enrich the game and add more dimensions. You get way more gratification from getting iri chaser against killers that have favorable chases. Those extra dimensions annoy survivor and thus, they get labeled as "Boring" or "Annoying" because they're no longer in complete control like they are with M1 Wraith.
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I agree with him that hillbilly basekit nerf was unneeded.
I disagree about spirit having no counterplay, that thing gets old really quick. It requires other skills than looping and doesn't nullify it. You do run a spirit the same way you do run a wraith yeah you will lose. But when you start to actually mindgame a spirit as survivor and anticipate what she does and predict her it is really funny to see her get frustrated. There are also very nice counterplays to her so for example this one when you are injured:
This however requires a flashlight.
I also think that the argument about nurse is wrong. She was nerfed and even a good nurse will struggle against good survivors, just like any other killer. I am sorry a killer should not struggle against survivors no matter how good they are, in order for a killer to struggle survivors need to actually be good as well and there has to be more to it but hold m1 and rush gens. Each killer does struggle with rush gens. Apart from that mindgames are what makes you struggle as a survivor even against a wraith when he does a good mindgame and you fail to anticipate it you will get hit.
Thousand of hours do not get nullified because of spirit or nurse. I do not want to comment about Deathslinger, as I have not played alot against him since i play alot less dbd.
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Because they were the only killers standing a chance against swf. Key word is CHANCE. And swf groups want to continue bullying killers. And generally baby survivors keep crying.
Oh and trip, once the Billy nerf gets pushed out people will play spirit and Freddy instead and Bhvr will takle them aswell.
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Those survivors don't know how to dodge Deathslinger, they're simply guessing and it's working against you, based off almost nothing. Unless you're an incredibly predictable player and go through the same motions everytime they're not outplaying you with skill, they're guessing right.
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To a degree he’s right. Survivors find looping fun, and those with a lot of playtime do enjoy putting their skills to the test and chaining pallets/vaults to run a killer for as long as possible. I agree wjth that because I find Myers and Bubba a lot of fun as there’s no real trickery, you can loop them successfully for as long as you can read their attack.
The problem is there is pushback on the other end. While its fun for survivors to loop a killer for 5 gens, it’s not fun as killer to be looped for 5 gens. This is why you often see people say “oh this killer doesn’t have anything that helps at pallets therefore they suck”. I don’t think matchmaking helps either, putting 2000 hour survivors vs less experienced killers resulting in 5 gen chases.
However just because a killer cant be looped doesn’t mean they can’t be fun. A lot of survivors find Nurse fun to go against as long as its not a 5000 hour pro nurse. You juke her in different ways, so as long as theres a fun counter non-loopable killers can be fun too.
Spirit - I don’t mind her power, I think it can feel rewarding predicting and outplaying a Spirit for multiple gens. I’ve done it a fair amount. She’s still has to go around walls and pallets so she isn’t Nurse bad. Only issues I have with Spirit is how people play (they always phase walk to hook to hard tunnel) and the fact that she makes up at least 30% of games you get as her pickrate is sky high. She’s not the most fun but I personally feel there is enough of a counter to her to stop her from being awful to play against.
Only killers I would say are truly boring are Legion and Deathslinger. With Legion yeah theres a counter to his second hit but his first hit theres nothing to it. You can guess where a spirit or nurse will be but with Legion if hes close enough when his frenzy is active it doesnt matter what you do hes getting the hit. If you vault anything he will vault right after you, if you run he will quickly catch up to you. At least with spirit if she tries to guess which side of a window you’re on and gets it wrong, boom she’s on cooldown and you run away. Nurse likewise, shes gonna need to eat a fatigue and then try to catch up. With Legion he will just turn around tap space and vault right back. You’re only option is to wiggle about and try to 360 which wont work against anyone half decent and isnt even an intended thing for survivors. Theres zero interaction to legions first hit, zero. He’s so damn boring. Then on top of that after being hit with zero interaction, you now suffer with an injured health state and are stuck with the choice of either 1) Staying 1-shot, 2) Holding M1 for a while to self-care, 3) running around the map looking for someone else to hold M1 and heal you, and you’ll probably need to heal them too. Since its legion expect to be doing that a hell of a lot throughout the trial.
Legion is awful just absolutely awful. There’s no interaction to him. Just a free hit with no skill required and a game full of holding M1.
Plague - I dont mind Plague strangely. Whereas Legion injures you instantly Plague takes time. She has to puke and puke and puke if she wants you injured quickly. This is possible to avoid as well. Likewise while she may get free injures, she also gives you quickheal fountains which remove the tedious part of Legion gameplay. Plague is like Legion done right.
Deathslinger I’m glad Scott mentioned him because Im starting to find him very boring and not very interactive and I’m glad Im not the only one. On his initial ptb be wasnt too bad but now as people have figured out how to play him it feels like no matter where I am, no matter what object I out between us he manages to drag me around it or walk around it himself and get the hit. Its ridiculous. Feels like all you can do is drop some pallets early, but then with his instant aiming hes gonna get you anyway, and that instant aiming allows him to zone you as Scott said. I would say he’s the only other killer along with Legion I find truly non-interactive and boring to play against. Combine that with his broken terror radius and the fact that to date I have not seen a single Deathslinger NOT A SINGLE ONE that doesn’t proxy camp and tunnel and I just flat out hate going against him.
Ghostface is my most hated killer in the game but hes not specifically boring, and with changes he could become tolerable. Deathslinger and Legion are definitely boring though for the reasons mentioned.
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I remember that, I didnt know it was Scotts fault
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I do it all the time dude. It works.
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Yeah but its NOT the only thing to do, some killers you have to play against differently. If you think theres no skill in faking oit a spirit for example idk what to tell you.
No killer likes looping, its boring af. Mind gaming some tiles is fun. Runnkng in a circle is not
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Dbd might not be the game for you. Theyve been making killers that specificallt stop looping, or at least make it much harder, since doc. Anti loop killers are literally never going any where
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No offense to popular streamers with 5000+ hours in the game, but they all admit to being bored with the game, have like zero energy or enthusiasm regarding the game anymore and openly admit if they werent being paid to play the game they wouldnt.
The term boring is used to describe anything that breaks the "loop the killer" mold.
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For the most part I agree with him.
I feel like survivors need to have counterplay and need to have options.
Whether those options put them at more risk or not is up to them and how the killer plays but the options should still be there.
Problem with old Legion was that even though they were weak because they had no counterplay you were basically screwed you were on a ticking timer no matter how good you were whether it was 30 seconds or 3 minutes you were guaranteed to go down.
Honestly this is why people usually said Billy you was the pinnacle of balance his add-ons were problem but his base kit was fine.
I have a similar problem with Pig I love Amanda don't get me wrong she's my main but tampered timer as an add-on when combined with jigsaw sketch or crate of Gears is just unfun to go against.
Either you get a free rng head pop that the survivor had no way of stopping as it's been proven you will not be able to do it no matter how good you do with the skill checks or the add-on feels absolutely pointless and is just a waste of time to use there is literally no in-between
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Oh right, why didn't I think about it. I wonder why all the other survivors can't "guess right" then, maybe they are all just very unlucky.
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Also huntress can just yeet a hatchet and the hitbox will injure u. Deathslinger has to aim and reel u in/break the chain.
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Agreed 100%. I also enjoy versing Spirit as its smth different and not just ok imma run in a circle can't catch meee oh i'll drop the pallet now so u have to break it. The most boring thing in the game is going around a loop in circles and theres no denying that. Scott saying survivors wanna use their skill basically means make every killer a wraith? Well no thanks. I prefer actually having difficult time in the game than running around an m1 killer. The only boring killers for me are: Freddy (i just dislike him as a character nothing with his power), Bubba (cuz all they do is just camp) and deathslinger cuz even if u manage to get behind an object u still get injured so it makes no difference if u ran at him or tried to run away from him (also deep wound.... didn't we already agree thats a stupid mechanic old legion btw)
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This^ is why I stop watching the video when he said "survivors want to test their skills" and why I main Spirit.
There is no skill involved with looping simply because all survivors are doing is running in a circle. If the loop is unsafe than all they have to do is peek around the corner looking for the red stain or the killers physical body! No skill what so ever, and if survivors can't do that, than the killer is boring and needs to be nerfed.
I'm currently sitting at 2.1k hours, I learned looping when I was at 300hrs, and mastered looping at 400hrs. How is it "testing your skill" when you've been doing the same thing for 1k hours?
I personally enjoy going against these so called "Boring killers" because they make me play in a different way, and force be to use different tactics.
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I have noticed this watching streamers, some are positive regarding new things, but some, man, I have seen them DCing on Midwich "new map sucks why bother even trying"
I call it passive toxicity. Blame the game instead of adjusting playstyle. I personally do not like going against pig or Plague, but I dont want them removed or changed at all. Why? Because I like having to play differently for various maps. Some players get stuck in a style, especially if they have to perform on cam daily, they just want to run loops and not have to counter new plays.
Edit added: Killers are forced to learn different playstyles, because each killer plays different for the most part. Killer powers are not eh same across the roster, despite many being M1 killers, but survivors, well they want to run the same 4 perks and do the same thing every match. Anything outside of that = boring. Sorry but not how it works.
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For the record I don't find any killer "boring". I think boring is an awful term for what we MEAN to say frustrating. People get FRUSTRATED playing against an Iri Huntress or Spirit or Freddy or whatever else. Boring is like, basement Bubba. You can legit say that's boring because there is 0 engagement. Bubba is just standing in the basement. You can make it fun by going down there to ######### with him but that is legit boring. Most everything else is not "boring" to play against, it's frustrating.
Spirit I enjoy playing against and I've learned to just run from tile to tile is the most effective tactic. As a Spirit main, MOST survivors try to either mind game me or loop me. Neither work most of the time. BUT then when you get a survivor that knows to just run to the next tile and/or to strong windows it becomes a different game. You end up having to either leave the chase, or spend a lot of time catching up. Smart survivors lead you away from gens other survivors are on. It is indeed possible to run a good Spirit, you just have to know how to run tiles. It's like playing against Nurse or Hag, you don't loop them you just... run forward. Spirit can only really catch you doing that if she has green add-ons. In some cases even those are not enough (on strong windows).
If I were to call any killer "boring" it would be Doc. He wasn't fun to play against before and he is LESS FUN now. Constantly revealing your position by screaming. Blocking vaults. MORE skill checks. Like really, skill checks are the least fun thing about playing survivor, why do they need to be more janky? It's annoying AF to play against Doc, believe it or not some players do enjoy hiding when the time is right. The game is as much hide and seek as it is cat and mouse.
Deathslinger is annoying too. My issue is less about his zoning and more about the fact that when he spears you he can both get a hit AND pull you out of position, while there is almost nothing you can do about it. His small TR is seriously annoying too. He should have a normal 32m heartbeat honestly.
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But the “fun” aspect is not universal and people have a different opinion on what “fun” is. I know many people who find the “boring” killers enjoyable to face 🤷🏽♂️
I don’t enjoy facing Billy but he is considered to be a “fun” killer.
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Case in point.
Scott said he enjoys going against Billy.
hexy absolutely hates Billy and rages against him constantly.
I enjoy watching both of them play the game though.
Two players with combined like 10000 hours in the game or more and have two complete opposite opinions.
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Not his fault alone to be fair, but he was definitly a part of the people hating against Oni.
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"Fun" is definitely very subjective. I personally find killers like Deathslinger and Spirit to be very boring to go against.
While at the same time, I have no issues going up against a Freddy, and I also find the whole playstyle of Billy boring.
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Or..the survivors are the boring ones? Because there are lots of different killers, but all survivors are the same. If survivors had different abilities just like the killers that is unique to them, then there would be variations for survivors as well. When you get tired of a killer you can switch killer, what can a survivor do? Switch perks and that is not enough.
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Running in a zig zag is useless and is just going to let him walk up to you and hit M1. The only thing you can really do against a good Deathslinger is drop pallets early, but you often can't choose where you engage him given his tiny TR, especially with Monitor. If you're not in a strong tile when he shows up he's basically going to get a free first hit. You can try to preemptively dodge his shots, but that's rarely going to work and is usually going to let him gain lots of distance and M1 you.
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I do it all the time, youre wrong.
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"the people that find a killer boring its because they either dont understand the counter to thst killer and are getting waxed all the time, or they understand it really well and dont find it challanging"
This makes sense for brand new players, but it is just straight up false for the majority of players. By that logic experienced survivors should enjoy playing against all killers.
When calling a killer unfun, survivors aren't really focused on the killer's strength (i.e. whether there are there strategies that will allow you to win against them). They're specifically concerned with how it feels to interact with that killer. Killers like Legion have "counters" in the sense that they can help you win the game. You just need to spread way out whenever possible and not use pallets when Legion's in Frenzy (unless they're a potato). However, this doesn't counter Legion's power in your 1v1. It just prevents Legion from wrecking your teammates right away, and it makes sure you have pallets to use later. The fact is, Legion will always have the ability to apply deep wounds for free whenever they see you and have a full power gauge. There is NO COUNTER to that. That is why Legion is unfun to play against. If they want to hit you, there's just about nothing you can do about it. And then there's deep wounds...
I like playing against killers that have unique counterplay, but there needs to be counterplay in the chase.
The other category of killers I hate playing against are killers who just have busted, cheesable powers, namely Ghost Face. If the reveal mechanic were consistent he'd be a lot of fun to play against. As is the reveal mechanic is really inconsistent and it hurts both sides. Ghost Face can also just throw on lean add ons and use them mid chase to easily expose someone who's staring right at them. The video tape is just bs too...
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