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Scott details the issues people have with "boring" killers
Comments
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If killer players have to learn 20+ killers, why shouldn't survivors learn something other than "loop"? ALL killers have counters -do not fool yourself lol (I play survivor too)- this video is TOO flawed. Survivors just want to escape with least effort and daddy BHVR caters to them.
This proves what I always say: survivors are casuals who just hold m1 and "loop", no skill at all required in that.
/e: this guy is arguing that dodging a deathslinger (gun)shot is "guessing", are you people seriously taking his video serious? I mean he (and survivor mains) basically wants all killers to be M1 I guess..
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If you're running in a zig zag, the Deathslinger can walk right up to you and hit you. Not doubting you, but if you can pull this off more than occasionally you're playing against terrible Deathslingers.
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It seems that giving Deathslinger an ADS windup time similar to huntress would solve one of the complaints many have against him. He would definitely need to be compensated somehow, as he's already kinda weak.
Personally I would gladly trade an ADS windup for no more chain break stun. Survivors already get a sprint burst out of it and cannot be downed by it.
Stealth slinger is not going away unless he gets reworked, two of his add ons already reduce his terror radius, in addition to M&A. Giving him a windup, however, guarantees that survivors will always hear his "ping" noise while aiming, giving at least something to react to.
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I just don’t see the point in making MAJOR changes to most killers unless they are game breaking (like old Legion).
You’ll never be able to please everyone and I’ve seen complains about every single killer. It’s just not feasible to make every killer “fun” when not every players have the same idea of what is “fun”.
I enjoy Myers, Demo, Oni, and Nurse. Two of those killers I constantly see people call “boring”.
I hate Billy, Legion, and Freddy. One is considered “fun” and the other are just on the long list of “boring” killers.
People call Hag boring to play as and against and I enjoy Hag on both roles 🤷🏽♂️
Maybe I’m just weird.
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I mean yeah they are starting to run out of ideas, but I've been seeing this more for perks rather than killer powers, like Killer perks now a days aren't as good as the originals like stbfl, bbq and chili, and so on, now there are some exceptions of course with nemesis and deathbound but at the sametime it feels like ideas are just running dry and they can't think of anymore good killer perks without it being stupidly powerful.
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Now one thing I will say is that he does bring valid points. Like Spirit isn't fun to go against or play as, its all just guess work for the survivor, and I personally don't like to play as Spirit a whole lot mostly because I want to play a killer that allows me to show my skill and what I can do in the game. But one thing I do disagree for him is what he said about Deathslinger just a bit, he says that Deathslinger doesn't care about your skill level and is easy to play as. Buddy its a bit hard to play as deathslinger, to me Scott wasn't focusing on his weaknesses, he has very little gen pressure, his gun has travel distance (so takes time to actually catch someone with the spear) and he takes a while to reload, so there is required skill you just gotta remember what you can use to block yourself and cause the chain from breaking, so to me I don't see his valid claim for Deathslinger.
And to me Scott I can tell while he was recording this that he was having a rough time playing against these killers and I don't blame him spirit is ridiculously broken, but when he mentions there is nothing you can do to counter killers like pyramid head or deathslinger, I just disagree mostly on what he says, but thats just what I've been seeing
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So you are saying scott didnt have solid arguments. Deathslinger for example can zone you with no skill and has a less than a second quick shot with zero time to react to. Also combine that with all the loops he can shoot over how do you counter that?
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I think in general the direction they've taken with killer powers is the wrong one. They're shoehorning cooldowns into the mechanically intensive, high skill ceiling killers to limit their upside while also released pretty braindead killers that can now operate at a similar power level as killers that take twice the effort to play. It's a really bad direction for the game to take IMO.
The other problem with the killer powers is due to their simplicity. PH and other killers to a lesser extent ultimately force a binary choice on the survivor. If you do the thing, then I'll do the thing. If you don't do the thing, I'll fake the thing. But ultimately I just have to press the button at the right time. I don't need to charge, aim, flick, etc., like Nurse or Billy and I get the same result. And actually, I'm punished for playing a mechanically skillful killer because it seems to be company policy to break them like Nurse and then refuse to acknowledge their existence from then on.
I don't know where they're taking feedback from, because nothing I read on twitter or the forums, and nothing I see on twitch agrees with the direction the game is going where they dumb down killers, hard cap skill, and cater to rank 15s instead of actually giving them meaningful tutorials and expecting them to learn the game like the rest of us did.
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Well, the counter argument is, is it fun to verse swf that's either genrushing or flashlight saving , pallet stunning, coordinating a 4 man key escape? Come on, it goes both ways.
I'm sick of good killers being ruined when survivors have higher potential.
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The thing is "unfun" killers should exist too since survivors have always been strong as hell and since the devs have switched the design from unfair to too fair where killers are just m1 simulators since your power either doesn't do anything or hinders you in a chase
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I dont take much stock in scott..he says things but offers no ideas or solutions..making it pointless and just discrediting players tired of killers getting reduced to nothing..after billy trust in the devs to make decisions is very low
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That is what im saying, his argument here is weak.
As far as deathslinger, zoning in and of itself is a skill. So your argument is over before it even started. But lets go with it, if youre in a deadzone yes youre screwed but thats always true. If youre close to a vault or pallet and have enough distance zig zag to it, makes it harder for him to make the shot and if hes trying hell most likely miss. So theres still counterplay. The problem is always who has control over the chase, who is leading who. You just need to get better at keeping control. No killer is 100% counterable in a 1v1, and the ones that are are ######### and get wrecked on the regular.
Which brings us to the real crux of tge issue. This isnt a 1v1 game. 1 survivor should not be able to run a killer for 5 gens. Thats stupid. Its a 4v1 game. You need to counter tge killer *as a team* which is 100% possible against all killers
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This is exactly the problem. I can’t loop this killer well. It’s ‘boring’ = I don’t win so I don’t have fun.
It’s different. It can be countered. It’s got more guessing and luck involved than just abusing loops.
I love how everything that prevents people from just running around and around the same piece of debris is somehow boring.
mix your game up, juke crouch hide double back try to guess where she will go and go the other way. Nah I just wanna loop that one thing over and over but oh I can’t boo hoo. Ffs.
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Exactly, theres more skills to this game than running in circles and its REALLY dumb to expect that to be the counter to every killer
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No aiming in and out takes no skill and if your st a vault regardless if you juke a good slinger will be patient and wont shoot at all be cause a good survivor will try to juke giving him a free m1. Also a good deathslinger wont miss. It all boils down to a guessing game which you are trying desperately to defend.
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His main point is that a few of the killers remove survivor skill, and that is highly subjective. All of these killers break the monotony of doing the same type of loop over and over, but does that truly mean they remove your skill?
I don't see the difference to someone doubling-back against a Spirit causing her to miss, and leaving a loop when you lose sight of a killer as they're attempting a moonwalk. Hell, is it any different to his example of when the Billy "predicted" he would vault the window? At what point do "Predictions" become guesses? And do they truly require "skill" to pull off?
His points on old Legion and Deathslinger are pretty valid though, I will say. Deathslinger just feels like a very boring killer from his design, his name is too edgy, and his power is kinda iffy. If you're in front of the edgeslinger, he'll get his shot because he can aim and shoot faster thanthe average human reaction time. Putting pallets down early against him works pretty well though, but if he doesn't then you're doing the same loops over and over again.
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Aiming in and out isnt what we were talking about, zoning is. If the killer is blindly aiming in and out and that works on you then weve found the problem.
"A good slinger" and whats the difference between a good one and a bad one? SKILL.
Im not trying to do anything except point out how bad this argument is. You want to be able to run in a circle the whoke game and somehow are arguining thats fun. Its not. Get better.
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Huntress has a windup time, noise warning the survivor, and an animation. Deathslinger has none, he can instantly shoot
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Yes its skill but the skill we are talking about is his aim but it doesnt take away the fact that he gives you no time to react to his quick shot and he can shoot over almost every loop giving him no counterplay how is that fair you just sound like a biased killer main who wants killers to no counterplay.
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So what if you have no time to react to his shot? Good survivors dont try and wait for him to shoot to move out of tge way. Your problem is against him you as 1 survivor have less control over the chase than against say wraith.
You say im a biased killer main which is an argument almost as bad as "hes boring" ive explained numerous times how to counter him, I do it myself when I play survivor, i dont go on the forums and complain because I cant figure out how to counter a killer. Slinger in a 1v1 is pretty strong, in a 4v1 though hes super weak. Get. Better.
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Yes it’s a guessing game on your end. That’s the point.
Faking out a mistake by the survivor by aiming and bluffing your shots is again the point. Long time aimed shots are really not how the deathslinger works. I learned the hard way recently, its quick scope fast shots or fake outs. Which is it gonna be you have to guess, that’s his mind game. It’s an additional to moonwalking etc etc.
I like how you say it takes no skill but in the next sentence say a good death sling will be patient with his shot and get the hit, implying skill. Which is it?
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If you are "countering" him other than pre throwing it's because they are bad. All that counter you do is just guessing right and like someone linked a specific zubat video where he literally aims in and out to bait survivors jukes and just m1s And like you said his 1v1 is strong there is no getting better against a killer you cant counter but yes 4v1 hes weak he needs a nerf and a buff.
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When I say be patient with the shot as at windows vaults where you either vault or fake. A good slinger also has good aim which makes those shots that you cant react to even more deadly and a guessing game isn't a mind game.
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I agree with every single word Scott says in this video. Devs, hire this man.
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Ok then but hitting with the shot consistently is the skill again. I’m sure its possible to juke a miss out of even the best slingers.
Also there is guesswork in every mind game. The whole point of mind gaming is to fake out your opponent into thinking you’ve gone another way. The very premise of that is predicting/guessing which way they have gone and countering it accordingly. The whole mind game is a guessing game on one persons part, how predictable it is, that’s the skilled part.
if you do the same thing over and over I know where you are going I don’t have to guess. If you mix it up then hmm a more complex mind game is now underway. It’s all guessing.
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"He needs a nerf and a buff" 🤦♂️
Zubat is stupid good at this game. We all know that, aiming in and out omly works in the right areas of the map and if the survivors juke loke morons.
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Uhm duh, just because I don't have fun against certain killers I have to dodge dbd? What kind of cavehuman logic is that?
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Oh yeah they lost ideas on perks when they released huntress I guess. Occasionally they get some inspiration and bring 1 good perk on the entire dlc and that's it. I swear they force themselves to create 3 perks every time and it's going more harm than good because it's only polluting the Bloodwebs more and makes it more confusing for newcomer. They need to stop being this stuck in the "always 3 perks per character and always 4 DLCs per year" mentality because eventually noone can keep track on it.
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The kind that says if you dont enjoy something you shouldnt do it. Theyre not going to stop making anti loop killers
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The best remedy for any lack of agency for survivors...
is for BHR to actually fill the game with things for them to interact. You're not meant to neccessarily have good counterplay or agency against a killer when you are in their headlights because they're a bloody killer.
Problem is when as a survivor hiding or looping don't work there's nothing else on the map and no unique items to use outside of the standard set and some variants there of, so once your tool box of tricks is used up any killer you find "boring" seems predictably hard to do anything against even though those same killers get absolutely slapped against swf competent survivors like normal.
Spirit would be more interesting if there were more hiding places and items that create sounds or distract her. Like if you could drop a radio that produces a consistent noise notification-andrecorded sounds nearby like survivor moans- Freddy would be more interesting if you could maybe use an item to purposefully injur yourself-and there go activate all injury based perks...AND wake up..without having to run no mither but giving up a item slot-
you know all kind of ideas. Throw in some things like enviromental hazards and it dosen't matter if a huntress has an iri head because you could...I don't know...purosefully create a enviromental hazard to YOU-a fire- but that same fire blocks an area and forces said huntress aflame when she passes, revealing her aura. So you can make more decent plays.
I dunno.
Killers generally are fine...they all have a gimmick...some need balancing one way or the other but their gimmicks are fine...it's just their gimmicks in a game with no applicable offerings, items and just loop/vault/closet and pallet maps gets old fast. You can feel caged in very, very quickly.
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Come on man, even in the video I mention the Nurse / Deathslinger having to actually be good for this to be relevant. Yes, you can outplay people with bad aim any day, easily. I am talking about extremely good Nurses or Deathslingers that have no individual chase counters. In fact, the entire video is mostly about more experienced people with thousands of hours being bored of the game and explaining why that is. That's it.
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There's killer powers that are anti loop that arent boring to play vs like demo, huntress, oni to some extent. And then theres the boring ones like freddy, clown, deathslinger etc.
And it has nothing to do if they're strong killers/power (clown is one of the worse killers) or not, just about interactivity or ability to use your skill in chases
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Ok and if someone IS really good and using their skill to beat you, isnt that the definition of being outplayed? You also mentioned in the video that teams can still beat deathslinger by splitting up and doing gens. Its a 4v1 game, not a 1v1 game. So now were back to "if you find a killer boring you need to get better" which you said in the video is a bs argument (its not). Beating a killer SHOULD be a team effort, otherwise we all might as well be playing cod or something.
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Saying something is boring is subjective. Theres a lot of ways to counter Freddy that people overlook. Clowns a little more straight forward but hes weak overall. I dont find any of them boring but then i know how to counter them. ALL of them require skill to counter, theres more to this game than looping
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i like playing pyramid head, ghostface, and plague. this is just not true and also subjective
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Getting snare/bottle spammed is the definition of exciting gameplay
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He wasn't saying no add-ons on Billy, he was saying Billy's old add-ons pre nerf made him feel boring or unfun to play against, and that they only needed to nerf the add-ons and not the base kit as base kit Billy was perfectly fine and felt fun and rewardign to play against.
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Thats why you drop the pallet early and break los. Like i said, theres more to this game than running in circles.
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I agree but if they are going to keep that up they have to add another game play mechanic eventually, because if they just keep giving us new perks its not going to work out, there has to be a new game play mechanic for killers, like for survivor perks there is endless opportunity because they have a lot they can do, its nuts how good their perks are, they are spoiled silly. They gotta give killers the same treatment
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It all comes to personal preference when deciding if something is boring
Scott finds Deathslinger boring but I love going against Deathslinger
I personally like killers with chase power because you have to change the way you run them and keeps the game changing
But Scott Personally may not like having to change the way he runs killers
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I lost the entire long explanation I had typed out, so here's the short version:
Scott is biased. The most boring thing for Killers is going in circles. Nurse Spirit Deathslinger are fun because they don't have to go in as many circles. M1 Killers without a counter to looping like Wraith are really boring to play as. Survivors like looping M1 Killers the most because it's easy.
Survivors want killers they can loop to death.
Killers want powers that can counter looping or shut it down entirely.
Maintaining a balance without frustrating one side or boring the other is hard.
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If someone is good and is using their skill to outplay you, its only outplaying if you are on equal terms of input. Deathslinger is almost entirely on the Deathslinger's aim and input. I don't get how that's hard to understand.
Its like saying a GM chess player is outplaying another chess player when the second player only gets to use pawns and the first one gets to use every piece. Yes, the GM is really good and is using their skill to beat you, but he also has infinitely more options than you.
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So then the issue you have is you see this as a 1v1, its not. Its a 4v1. Its not comparable to chess because in chess both players are SUPPOSED to start off on equal footing. If 1 individual survivor is on equal footing with the killer then when skills are equally matched the killer would always lose because its 4 players all on the same playing field as the one player. Not necessarily in chase, but the entirety of the match itself I mean. You and I both know how stupid the gen speeds can be when the survivors decide to do them AS A TEAM, survivors are supposed to go down relatively fast, the point is for them to stay up long enough so their team to get some of the gens done. Thyre not supposed to run the killer for minutes at a time because there isnt whole minutes the killer can spend chasing 1 person. Youre SUPPOSED to lose those chases. The question is always, well how long does it take for you to lose that chase.
As for deathslinger, ive gone over numerous times how to counter him. I do it all the time in game, sometimes im able to extend the chase, sometimes he gets me early. At no point though am I at a "well theres just nothing I could have done." If he got me i either goofed or hes a really goid killer, and if hes really good then Im SUPPOSED to go down quick. Hopefulky my team was doing what they were supposed to do
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Looping is literally how you play the game though? Like the whole entertainment value comes from the player interaction. If looping is boring to you then why do you play this game? The whole point as killer is to counter these loops with your ability and pick off the survivors.
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Oni had his flick removed and was completely neutered. I don't think Scott was the one to even suggest that change though.
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You're bringing balance when no one is talking about balance. Just how interactable and counterable some killer powers are or not
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Looping is not the only thing in this game, and the better killers know how to avoid it as much as possible. The game isnt called nascar simulator and when the game first came out is was considered an exploit
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An unbalanced game is unfun for 1 side. Thats just true. And if you think theres no interaction or counter between you and deathslinger im not sure what else to tell you
And i didnt bring balance into it, he did when he brought chess up
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No, he compared it to a 1v1 situation where one player inpunt pretty much doesnt influence the outcome of the situation
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Unfortunate you see it that way. I try to be absolutely as objective as possible, noting problems on both sides. Oh well.
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