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For those calling PH and Deathslinger OP
Keep your distance against these two as much as you can. Not every killer is meant to be played against the same way.
For those who don't know, PH's punishment of the damned has a 2.75s cooldown - if you run straight after he misses you can get an 11m head start (4 m/s x 2.75s) which is close to the distance you get after being hit by an M1 killer (6 m/s x 2s = 12m). It would take him just over 18s to catch up (11m/0.6 m/s - without bloodlust) if you kept on running.
You are better off forcing a miss then 'holding W' rather than looping the same tile and letting him fake his M2.
On deathslinger - I bought him on console and gave up on him after some time. FPS and optimisation issues make him a nightmare to play as, since you miss even at really close range with his minuscule hitbox and janky aiming - he needs the fast ads to make up for it and even then his reload speed is the same as PH's cooldown (and he moves at 60% movement speed while reloading). Plus he is also a 4.4 m/s killer so his map pressure sucks even more.
This isn't to say either can't be strong in the right hands, but calling for nerfs isn't right unless perhaps they are buffed in other areas. I say this playing as them and against them - they aren't freddy or spirit's level at all.
Edit:
I am going to drop some links below. To illustrate my point.
Scott Jund - Strength of hold W
Fungoose - Looping WITHOUT pallets against The Excutioner.
Comments
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Yep, both of them are completely counterable. Its mostly people who suck at doing exactly what counters the killers power that are complaining.
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I don't think either killer needs to be nerfed. Pyramid Head is definitely more fair than Deathslinger though, as his power has limited aiming, reduced movement speed while aiming, and a red glow where it will hit. With Deathslinger its pretty much entirely on the skill of the Deathslinger with a little bit of luck thrown in. Not as bad as Spirit or anything, but still pretty bleh to play against.
Still, neither are overpowered.
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neither are overpowered neither need a nerf.
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Well your arguments about Deathslinger doesn't work at all. You are assuming all of us are in console and since Deathslinger is hard to play people who play that killer will always miss, which is definitely not the case. Deathslinger without a doubt is one of the strongest killers in chases, the strongest in my opinion but that's just an opinion and not a fact. His map pressure is bad so he is pretty balanced like you said, so I agree he doesn't need a nerf. Just wanted to clarify his chase potential, its nothing to be taken lightly especially on PC.
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remember when people called out ph as an op killer? yeah that lasted a month, exactly the time to adapt to a new killer (unless devs didn't nerf that new killer already because survivors bitched about everything).
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Deathslinger is a low tier killer for me. Don't see how anyone could call him OP.
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Deathslinger and Pyramid Head, have the same issue. They're able to instantly M1 after cancelling their power.
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It's definitely more noticeable on PH, but yeah. He needs just a little bit of a cooldown on being able to swing after canceling his power. It's fairly uninteractive for the survivor to not really be able to do anything at a pallet; you either drop it and get hit by the power or fake the drop and have the killer instantly swing on you.
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The only issue with Deathslinger is that he can shoot instantly with no feedback for the survivor. You don't dodge a Deathslinger shot: he misses. Give him a wind up time similar to Huntress or Demogorgon and suddenly he is fine as the survivor has at least some chance to react.
Pyramid Head is just a poorly designed character. Forcing survivors into lose/lose situations with zero chance for counter play is awful character design. Do I drop this pallet/vault this window and get hit by his ability, or do I just keep running and get hit by an m1?
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I'd like it if there was more incentive to use PH's M2 rather than just baiting it and using M1. Maybe if you couldn't cancel trail into M1 so fast, and M2 was a lot less punishing.
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Stop kicking pallets and you'll have near infinite uses for Exe's M2. Some pallets still need broken but the vast majority of them make it impossible to loop an Exe as he will land either a M1 or M2.
To counter that a Survivor needs to focus on stealth and avoiding an Exe. Making use of the terror radius to keep distance, learning how to hide, so on and so on. Exe also asks Survivors to adjust their builds to support stealth or avoiding the Killer. Spinechill, OoO, Premonition, or something else defensive instead of stacking aggressive perks.
Then as a counter counter, an Exe can afford to get out of meta as well. I run Distressing for example giving me a negative (loud) stealth and messes with people who depend on the TR to avoid me. It also combos very well with Coulorphobia (spelling?) and Deathbound. No one can heal anywhere without wasting a LOT of time or telling me where they are. Often both while giving me even more stealth too boot the bipolar nature of Distressing/Deathbound combo. Toss in another perk of choice on top of that and I haven't had but 5 games in total since Exe came out that seen all gens finished.
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I 100% agree with PH. Everytime I play as him and see survivors just holding W, I knew I'm just an M1 killer with very little gen defense at that point. And my hits should be on point or I lose the game. Cant even afford to miss or I lose.
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They're not overpowered. They're uninteractive. Pretty big difference.
People who cry "wahh <killer name> OP" are just stupid if they can't even properly name the problem, and their opinions shouldn't be given much attention; more often than not they will be just absurd and entitled.
People who actually can call out the problem with PH and Funslinger and see that they're not overpowered by any means, but simply uninteractive in chases (which is generally speaking the most fun part of playing survivor).
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People are calling these killers boring, not overpowered, and they are objectively very uninteractive killers who care little about survivor input which a lot of people dislike. Nobody with a brain would call them overpowered, because no killer is. The sooner you have actual empathy for the other side and read what they have to say the clearer their complaints might seem to you.
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I wish the upcoming killers focus their power more on gen defense instead of on loops. Maybe a secondary ability for loops but not completely focussed on it. A better pig maybe?
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On PH, If they removed 1 sec from the M2 cooldown (when you actually used it) and applied that 1 sec to the fake instead then I think that would be a fair trade off. I think his M2 should also apply torment but that is for another discussion.
With deathslinger I can see how on PC he might be more accurate, I think with him his ADS should be slower and his ADS accuracy/hitbox should be better/bigger (maybe more the longer you ADS like huntresses' hatchets) that way survivors will have a cue and it rewards players who are accurate. Right now you have to essentially quickscope with him as his full ADS aiming is really weird (you notice this a lot if you play FPS games).
What I don't want to see is me having to play spirit or freddy again because lower level killers are catching unnecessary or unbalanced (i.e. no buffs to compensate) nerfs.
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No, there are still plenty of threads calling for PH nerfs.
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It's not a lose/lose situation you just dont have the game sense to not put yourself into a bad situation.
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Or dont put yourself into a bad situation, die, then cry op
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Shhhhh, you cant tell survivors not to run aggro meta perks and change thier singular playstyle. How dare the game evolve in any way. That's heresy, get ready for the pitchfork mob.
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You dont need input you need game sense.
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What is this magical game sense that allows you not be in a lose/lose situation vs PH? Hide all game so you never hey chased?
This isnt hide and seek. And even if you try that killers have a lot of aura reading perks so they can find you anyway, again because this game isnt about hiding, its about chases.
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No, you put yourself in that situation.
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Whatbis interactive about dead hard? Nothing, the killer has to anticipate it. That's called game sense. Try having some.
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So a killer that cant kill but can keep gens from being done. Good idea. Cant wait for the 2 hour long standoffs. GG
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By being chased? Wich is literally what this game is about and the most fun part of it
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It absolutely would not be a good trade, there is no reason to ever use his M2 that much. You could increase the cooldown by 1 or 2 seconds and would hardly do anything to him if you play him correctly.
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What people don't seem to understand is that PH already struggles against survivors that just do gens quickly. Removing his ability to put them in a TIME CONSUMING lose lose situation would put Pyramid Head himself in a lose lose situation.
As a result every decent survivor would IMMEDIATELY be able to loop him for 5 gens.
Be honest: What is your typical chase duration against Pyramid Head? Also keep in mind chase power is all he's got.
Spirit (to name sample) can down you QUICKLY and check gens, hooks, gates etc. QUICKLY using her phase power so she has strong chase potential AND strong map pressure.
Meanwhile Pyramid Head has to walk everywhere and people want him to struggle to get his 2 hits in a chase by adding a cooldown when canceling his power...
Apparently people want to face nothing but Spirit and Freddy all day.
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And I bet you run the chase the same way against PH as you do a typical M1 killer right? Right.
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Have you heard of pig?
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How to know if PH only fakes his powers to zone you out or not faking it?
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Get chased, just dont play that chase the same way you would any other killer. You actually have to chamge up how you play, what perks you take. The game evolves imagine that.
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Multiple people here already sugested to make missing M2 less punishing in trade for a short cooldown when canceling M2.
It would even make playing more interesting. I dont want to play a killer that 90% of the times is better to fake using the power than actually using it.
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Yes I have, typically the RB trap lasts 30 seconds and it's off and gens never stop. That's why pig is so bad right now.
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Sorry I thought you meant a killer that could actually defend gens not just pretend to.
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Game sense is not magical. It's the same thing as playing a fighting game, experience tells you when to strike high, when you block, when to grapple. How to anticipate your opponent BEFORE they act. If everything your opponent does can be read then the game just plays itself for you. But that's what you want isnt it?
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Wow a person who can call out absurd strengths but acknowledge glaring weaknesses to a perk or killer. This should be standard when evaluating game play design but nonetheless I'm glad to see constructive criticism. I agree Deathslingers ads is pretty crazy but for all the time spent reeling and reloading a single shot the dude needs either a larger capacity or to have an instadown apply on his redeemer depending on how long hes adsing. If your a two hit killer and your low mobility your usually garbage and that's where a lot of crap killers tend to be.
Now would probably be a good time to look at potentiality having different weapon wiping speeds for slower killers. I always disliked how Deathslinger wastes so much time wiping his gun, reloading after every shot and spends so much time reeling in survivors. Imo its where he loses most of his time. My concern is that Deathslinger having a longer ads would leave him in an unplayable state and especially after legion and billy I don't trust behavior to address Deathslingers core issues. Its hard to not be defensive about nerf's when killers with these kinda track records don't get fixed. They get neutered.
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That would be a really fun change. I too think that his ranged attack should be used as an actual attack rather than a tool for easy and boring M1 hits.
Therefore I think his ranged attack should:
- have a dramatically reduced cooldown ON SUCCESSFUL HITS (similar to Huntress when she hits you with a hatchet up close)
- apply tormented (unless your state just changed [otherwise people would just camp and shoot everyone that got unhooked to torment them again])
- reduce his cooldown on missed shots (slightly) as he would HAVE to take the shot if canceling it would result in a cooldown animation.
In exchange for buffing his ranged attack canceling the power should result in a cooldown animation for a few seconds so he can't just zone everything (which IS boring on both sides).
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I would like to see this counterplay you talk about vs PH.
OhTofu was playing PH last night on stream for a long time to prove exactly this, survivors will get into the lose lose situation no matter what.
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Lmao, make it less punishing sure. Still wont be used because it would be impossible to hit in the open. All I would do is wait for the vault animation to start and immediately M2 and release but now you wont gain as much distance from me because M2 is less punishing. Congrats you made him stronger. Yes do this please. I love it, I can taste the tears already.
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To be honest I haven't played as much deathslinger to fully grasp his potential or what would be the best way to rework/fix him. I think this is where objective (as possible - we can't run away from our biases) deathslinger mains should give feedback. Perhaps a movement speed change would work to balance out the ADS slowdown. That way he would have some map pressure back - I agree he seems to be slow at everything else currently.
I can offer more feedback with PH, because he is my new main and I have played a spectrum of survivors with him and also against him.
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You don't understand what they said. They want to buff the ranged attack but nerf the zoning potential. Canceling the power would result in a cooldown animation giving free distance to the survivor for a few seconds so whenever a survivor runs at a window you have to decide whether to go for the swing or put the knife into the ground in which case you HAVE to take the shot regardless of whether they will actually vault the window or not because if you cancel it you will be unable to do anything for a few seconds allowing said survivor to get away for free.
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How do I explain game sense. If you dont like to think you are going to have a hard time in any game I hate to tell ya. You seem so entrenched in playing one specific way that you cannot even fathom changing how you run a chase or what perks you bring. Its astounding. If you dont understand what game sense is I explained it in terms of a fighting game earlier as an example. Its anticipation. PH may not be one who you can read but he is predictable. I think I have died to him once since release. Force him into bad angles at vaults, use vaults, and pallets sparingly just dont blindly rush to one like so many seem to do. If he has time to slow himself down to fake M2 and hit you then you were going to go down anyway against any killer. But if you do PUT YOURSELF in that situation and you know the fake is coming fake right, he swings, you go left. WOW
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I didn't watch the stream, but from playing PH, survivors who know how to counter him properly (especially teams) can waste a lot of his time. They avoid the trail like the plague to the point where going down is more valuable than losing their DS/BT etc.(fair play to them). His M2 is hard to hit unless its at a locked animation and if you miss they gain alot of distance if they run straight after.
I had the same problem playing against him initially, I kept trying to loop him and kept getting punished. Now I keep distance as much as I can and loop a tile probably once, break LOS and move to another (Fungoose is really good to watch for info for both sides). This wastes a lot of his time especially if he assumes you will carry on looping.
Link to Fungoose's 'Looping WITHOUT pallets against The Executioner' video below.
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Or just buff his ranged attack and leave his zoning alone. He's not S tier in the first place, there's no need for trade-offs.
If we did what you guys are suggesting then people could loop him. All of these suggestion's wouldn't do diddly dick against decent survivors who are able to dodge the highly telegraphed ability in the first place. He would just become better at destroying lower skilled survivors who already get destroyed by basically 115% killers m1'ing them and would get recked by survivors he needs to be good against.
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Really think the 'strength of holding W' video applies here.
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You have a point but we all know the devs would never just buff anything about a killer without nerfing another thing to make up for it. Even Bubba's buff resulted in a nerf of several addons (including my favourite addons).
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It's the same thing with the spirit. "tHeRe iS nO iNtERaCtIoN" But she is predictable, create misleading scratch marks, she stands still at a pallet simply walk away until she reappeares, I rarely need to actually drop a pallet against her. Imagine having to understand a character to perform well against them.
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Thats why I said 'better' pig. Someone who can waste time actively and in a predictable fashion but not passively where it is unnecessary to down someone to apply pressure.
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Again would like to see you counterplaying someone decent at pyramidhead.
Maybe we can get a 1v1 going like @ScottJund arranged the deathslinger one, and the outcome will be the same.
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