Reasons why killers should be able to see if survivors are in groups
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so 1 side can do strong things but the other side can't, never, not allowed, not even it its a 4 man with a key
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I agree that we should be able to see if people are in a group. That includes a group with as a Killer friend.
This way we can decide if we even want to play with them. Perhaps that is the solution.
If Killers don't want to play with SWF, and Teammates also bail on them, maybe they'll decide to not cheat, not do it, or do it in a group of 5 where everyone is aware.
Win-win
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"SWF would always get dodged or bullied by the killer!!"
Doesn't that tell you a lot about how unfun it is to go against a SWF?
"Most SWF aren't deathsquads!"
True. But even when I'm memeing with my 3 other friends the amount of info we have at our disposal is STUUUUPID high compared to when I'm going in blind. SWF groups have insane advantages even if they don't capitalize on it all. It's ridiculous it has been 4 years without any sort of balance to them.
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some people could bring it for the simple fact is a swf even without items.
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Still at least they had a choice to make rather than oh it was a swf and I brought two brown addons as clown guess ill lose
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Ranks do mean nothing that's correct. I'm trying to say if you really believe killer is unbalanced then your incorrect. In those 9/10 games I mentioned you think they were all solo players? They weren't.
Against a really good swf then the game is unbalanced in the survivors favoured but that is extremely, extremely rare.
To me survivor seeing killer and killer seeing survivor are both busted. They both bring unfair advantages that I believe wouldn't work at the highest level.
I'm super scared lol oh no a spirit with green add-ons what am I going to do?! 😂
Here's my main point. 95% of swfs are bad. No matter what everyone tries to tell you this is a fact. So I don't think it's fair that your encouraging a killer to bring an ebony mori (which we all know they will) or busted add-ons like Iridescent Head. I also don't think it would be fun facing the exact same killers every single game because you need to "play sweaty killers to have any chance of winning". I also don't want killers blaming a lose on an "unbalanced" game when it could just be that they played really bad.
I remember telling a story of a 4 man swf I faced recently. I don't know how to link other discussions so here is screenshots of what I said. Most people would've brought a sweaty build or dodged but I was confident in my abilities and wasn't going to make any excuses.
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Never said that all SWF were god tier gamers
Never said that killer was unbalanced
SAID that rank does not equate to skill
Now why would I think this way
Because I think it would be a good addition for the killer to know they might have the off chance of facing a fabled 4 man sweat squad before the game starts so they could bring something better or dodge if they are a coward.
However this will BALANCE OUT THE BLATANTLY STRONG THING with a mediocre thing that will tell people prep better for the match or get out.
Even a crappy 4 man swf is more powerful then 4 solo survivors and is above the killer in terms of who has an advantage. which is why killers should be able to better prepare.
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But a large proportion of people likely will given how much folks complain about SWF. You have the option to face 4 survivors likely not on comms that will be less efficient at coordinating thus making for a more balanced game vs a highly coordinated group that is likely on comms giving them a seriously unbalanced advantage. Most people, even those that like a challenge, will likely pick to former 9 times out of 10 and who would blame them. Add in the new killer lock and you'll have a wait queue nightmare with never ending lobby dodging.
There is no value in telegraphing SWF that benefits the game overall, it just gives people justification to dodge.
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Killers say they would dodge because voice comms are equivalent to having every aura reading perk plus being able to stack second chances. Personally I think swf is fine but using voice comms in this game is as equally scummy as tunneling and camping
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So all the other points don't exist because people can dodge. Nothing of value would be added because people would dodge. Thats one way to make a poor argument.
Not everyone will dodge git gud. <--- heres another example of one to help you get better at it.
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yes which is why I thought killer being able to see if they will have voice coms would help the killer out of the imbalance without nerfing survivors
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Part of reason 5 is the same reason why they should never implement this. It will encourage lobby dodging, son unless they also add a increasing penalty of some sort for each lobby a killer dodges, killers will just start dodging lobbies until they either a find a 2 SWF 2 Solo or 4 Solo's
Would everyone do this no, but how much so many people complain about SWF on these forums it is highly likely that a decent portion of killers would actually do this.
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It's by no means a poor argument, I'm offering a counter point to what you have said and probably the most valid argument against. Even the last point in your post says that letting people know its swf will allow them to dodge. The problem here is sitting in the lobby for 25 mins while people pop in and out because they know you are swf. That's to the detriment of 2 to 4 players for the minor benefit of 1 to 2.
I agree with some of the points you made but it doesn't change the issue that queue times for swf groups will increase due to many killers and solo survivors not wanting to be paired with swf. So if a few minor QOL improvements come at the cost of extended queue times in reality its not much of an improvement.
It also will likely promote killer toxicity because they know its swf i.e. 1 hook mori.
The only way to know is trial it and see if lobby times and dc's increase. But my educated guess says they will.
The final point... don't talk down to me mate, I never said I dodged, but just look at the forums about swf, there is a large community of people (both solo survivor and killer) who obviously will. I'm afraid your reply amounts to nothing more than a feeble attempt to trash talk rather than discuss.
When it comes to logical debate you need to "git gud..."
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I never said they were god gamers either. Your trying to imply they are at a massive advantage, enough that the killer needs something to help them out. You literally said at the beginning "most 4 man swf groups bring map offerings" which isn't true.
Wow the all capital letter sentence came out. Seems like I struck a nerve.
Just think for a second about this. Imagine you played in a 4 man tomorrow. Each of you mentioned in your profile that your in a 4 man with the rest of the team. Your either getting dodged, broken add-ons or a mori. Your probably also going to be seeing the exact same killers every single game which will get boring. There is the exception where someone will feel confident in themselves and play the game normally but that won't happen often. This would still happen to a lesser extent if you said you were a 2/3 man swf.
Btw if the killer chooses to dodge that doesn't mean they are a coward.
It seems like no matter what I say or you say we're going to disagree. I'm leaving this here since we're both just talking to brick walls at this point.
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its a poor argument because the ability to dodge lobbies is one of the points and your argument is just no to all if it because of 1 point I disagree with
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Dc for a 2 man and 2 randos sounds like a coward
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I'd like to know when 3 (mostly for when I'm the lone solo survivor) and 4 man swf, a lot of the most toxic (as in post game chat toxic, insults and the like) people I've run into seem to be together in 3 and 4 man groups (at least indicating it in the post game chat). I'm also fairly new to the game and as a killer am just not skilled enough to face 3-4 people on coms, facing groups like this literally ruins the new killer experience when it happens..duo swf I think should stay unmarked though.
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So everyone is basically of the mindset that with any of these changes, it'll just screw over SWF's and their queue time so we should leave things as they are with the killer continuing to be the only one that's screwed with an unknown disadvantage placed upon them.
Maybe a way to get around that argument, make a killer perk or offering that lets you change loadout + offering mid-match.
For example, let's say you bring a basic build or some meme build expecting a normal game but then you start going against coordinated body blocking with hook sabos, flashlights, and someone using Breakout or some For The People / Soul Guard shenanigans; basically anything that is highly improbable for Solo's. Well, switch to a different preset load out of 4 perks and offering mid-match to stand a better chance against an SWF. Or is this too unfair for the coordinated voice communicating 4stack to deal with against the solo killer player?
No dealing with longer queue times or lobby dodging this way. Basically some kind of implementation of a feature like this in a way that won't screw over Solo's, like no switching to a Mori mid-match (even though survivors can still find keys mid-match).
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The killer should be told after the game when it shows blood points and survivors perks and stuff. If it shows it before then people will just back out of swf games.
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Only SWF are allowed to have fun. The killer is not allowed to have fun. Killers should just get good and let us create our hit squads, allowing us to teabag and flashlight them all game.
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But the point you made is in support of dodging lobbies as a solution to swf if you don't want to face them. Do you not understand your own argument?
"It lets you know if you should dodge a lobby, people who aren't confident in their abilities as killer might be turned off from the game if they get curb stomped too hard by a swf in the middle of their gameplay being able to see if its a swf will let the less confident killers find another lobby where they might feel they stand a better chance." Your last point.
Your rationalization for this is really flawed, as if this is the only reason people will dodge a SWF group and it still leads to dodging.
Also the idea that it will let you "bring the appropriate power level" shows that you would alter your behaviour and gameplay to maximise your ability to win against an SWF. Again prompting potentially "toxic" builds and playstyle in response. Another point I made in counter to the idea.
Lastly new players can be outmatched by even one or two survivors being higher ranked than them and carrying the team, its not due solely to SWF and showing SWF does little to bolster new player experience other than giving them a justified option to dodge a lobby and increase wait times, and we circle back to my main point.
Also the map offering point is just an assumption about map offerings and swf, so again not really a strong point to make in of itself.
Given your other responses are just put downs and calling people cowards its clear your not here to make legitimate suggestions but more so to just rail against swf and anyone who disagrees. Hence this is no longer a rational discussion.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
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fine, instead of showing who is in swf, make it a toggle option to be matched vs 3 or 4 man swf teams or not, as a new player it's really not fair that on top of being matched against solo red ranks I sometimes get matched against 4 who after speaking with them in post game chat it's clear are together..it's a very bad new player experience for killer, and I'm personally waiting for the new mmr system to even touch it again since just before rank reset stuff like this was very common..
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o,O this could work.
This way those of use who don't want to play with SWF of any type EG: Killer + 2 in an SWF, 3 survivor SWF etc etc. Don't have to and those who don't mind can opt in.
WIN-WIN!
So simple - yet - so overlooked and BRILLIANT!
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Ok this is a suggestion where the wait is imposed on the person wishing to not play against SWF, rather than dodging the lobby and pushing it onto others. Its a good idea in theory that answers some of the points such as toxic response.
One caveat however is that we now have a setting where you can toggle SWF and never face them unless you choose, which... increases wait times for both SWF and those who don't want to face them due to reduced player pool to draw from.
We wind up back at the same problem as if you are likely to dodge a lobby due to SWF you are likely to toggle them off. Its why a separate pool would increase wait time. Again by how much you'd have to test it but I'd reckon it would create a substantial cost for players wanting to play with friends and as such lead to them leaving the game reducing player pool overall.
What's worse the occasional bad/hard game or 30-40 mins wait to get a game in the first place.
Who remembers classic wow, (not that I play anymore) with three servers, you get home log in to the queue go do something else and an hour later you can play. If you drop out for some reason then you go do something else and 40 mins later you can play again. It was crap.
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my wait times for killer at up to rank 10, at non peak hours, where between 10-30 minutes depending exactly when it was. I'd rather wait longer for matches that where actually fair for both sides. and occasional? ot happened quite frequently, that combined with the wait times for matches it put me off playing killer until they implemented the new mm I've been hearing about entirely as of the 11th.
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I get my share of stomps to and I basically play killer almost exclusively. Only an occasional survivor. Its not always due to swf though and often swf are the overly altruistic teams that get themselves killed because they all want to escape.
My anecdotal gaming experience of course doesn't invalidate your gaming experience. If wait times are at 30 mins now imagine a separated player pool wait time. I have a low threshold for that these days.
Its a fun game but not enough of an experience that I'd sit for an hour waiting to get into it, plenty of other things to occupy my time.
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@pseudechis Do you think that would be temporary though. If the SWF's were waiting too long - it's possible they could stop cueing that way?
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But should we punish people for wanting to play an online pvp game with their friends. Not all swf groups are decked out bully squads.
I'm the first to call playing on comms basically cheating but can you really just say solo play only. Its not in the interests of the game as a whole to be that limiting. Especially when people enjoy teaming up with folks they enjoy playing with.
Also I can't believe I'm beating the drum for the viability of swf given how hard some of those games can be to face and how toxic they can be, but no moreso than solo folk, also I'm incredibly anti-social at the best of times so a single player mode against well programmed bots would just be my bread and butter but alas interacting with strangers online is the game and so be it... most interactions are pleasant.
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I just check the profiles real quick to see if they're friends with each other and change it up accordingly
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The main concern on one side is unfair advantages and on the other side is wait times, both very important aspects.
In my opinion, SWF should never have been combined with the normal game mode, there is KYF if you want to play with your friends. I've said before SWF should've had it's own game mode, which would've made sense to make as a casual game mode rather than a competitive one with ranks.
The main problem with SWF is that the normal game mode is balanced around SWF not even being part of the equation. The game was created with uncertainty in mind, that you never really knew what your fellow survivors was up to, unless you could see them. Even voiced commands in the game is out of the question, but 3rd party communication is completely fine, which completely contradicts what they're saying and what they want. Communication breaks the balance in so many ways, and it's an unfair advantage that the killer player cannot do anything against, not even the game compensates for this imbalance.
Trying to balance the game around SWF being able to get various unfair advantages, such as having communication, will be very problematic, and there will many things to take into account, like the party being partially SWF. It's the kinds of variables that cannot be properly balanced after, no matter how you try to compensate, there will always be scenarios where the balance doesn't fit. As this is, either Survivors or Killer will become too strong. Game balance is extremely important, and shouldn't be compromised.
There are really only two options here when you boil it down:
- Either getting rid of completely SWF
...OR
- Make SWF into it's own game mode.
In either case, people will have to accept that there will be longer wait times, because people will play the game mode that suits them better. But also do keep in mind, there are a lot of players who've decided to not play the game because of the imbalanced state that it is in currently, SWF contributes alot to this.
I can see why people want to play this game with their friends, but it completely wrecks the game balance, and it's not like it was balanced in the first place. I've personally made a lot of posts to illustrate where some of the imbalances are and how to fix them - still not fixed, not even a single one.
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if killers should be able to see if a team is a swf to bring the power level they need, then survivors should be able to see what killer they're playing against to also bring the power level they need lmao
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And see this is the hard part isn't it? How do you not punish everyone for others actions.
Thing is - I play survivor. More often than not I have a two man SWF or a two man swf that also is with the killer. I have had this so often that it is making the game miserable for the other two remaining. As you pointed out - plain and simple - it's cheating and it's cheating at 2 -3 other peoples expense. Too many are cheats. It's sad that the behavior is ruining it for other SWF groups, true solo player and killers.
In this case I have to take a unitarian standpoint.
There is also a private game mode for people who want to do SWF.
If people want to do an SWF within a public game they need to treat their teammates and the killer with proper sportsman like behavior - I have not met a group yet capable of fully playing fair and honest.
Helk I had one set of SWF with a killer friend kill me straight off the bat last night with an insta kill and then sit there and teabag my corpse. (as the killer was killing me I watched my so-called teammate do that.) I have to just say no to that. I didn't stand a chance. In a way - funny - sure - once. Now rinse and repeat getting killed or farmed like that without getting a chance to play and it gets old very fast.
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Its in support of lobby dodging if they are a coward does that mean everyone will be a coward, no, does that mean there wont be cowards, no you can still dc at any point in the game that it gets too overwelming does that mean everyone does it, no, this will be just fine and for the 1/100 people that are cowards they probably already dodge suspected swf anyway so no real changes there
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Point well made. Don't really have a reply to that. Guess we'll just have to see how the new mmr system corrects game experience. You never know the toxic bully crowd may out preform themselves right out of their own bully league and all end up paired with each other.
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I can't make sense of this rambling post at all. It in no way adresses any of the points I made. I've made my point I'm done. You have yet to offer anything of substance in reply, re-read what you just wrote... seriously. Its completely incoherent.
I have no idea what you are talking about and I'm pretty sure you don't either lets just agree to disagree and move on because jesus dude, I mean seriously get someone to read it back to you.
Lifes to short and after all its just a game.
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just because x can do x doesn't mean x will do x supplement x for lobby dodge and cowards at users digression.
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So far I can see it trying to adjust. I'm getting more games with more like minded people / game play and skill level - regardless of their number. I hope it keeps going like this as if it does WOO HOO.
I love that idea of their own bully league. Wouldn't that be the best karma ever? Oh if only that happens. A girl can dream. 😍
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