So boring killers are the new trend now...
I would usually put out my own opinion, but first of all, this will die out in 3 days. Second, even if I do, everyone will ignore it and spend 6 pages on why my opinion is wrong, so what is the goddamn point anymore?
Comments
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I dont know, but its obvious you care about the topic enough to bother making a post at all.
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Discussion do tend to have people who disagree, or it wouldn't really be a discussion.
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The "boring" killers refers to the killers that put survivors in a lose/lose scenario like Deathslinger, PH, Doc etc. They counter loops in a way that makes them "un fun", but those same killers also have zero map pressure, so although they win chases, they still lose the game and are generally not that strong against decent survivors.
This is where the balancing around 1v1 or 1v4 comes into play. If you balance around the 1v4, the game is more balanced but the chases aren't as fun because they end so quick. With how fast gens are, chases have to be extremely short. If you balance around the 1v1, you get more fun chases but the killers end up extremely weak because as said, he simply does not have the time for chases to last that long in a 1v4.
I think the key here is to make the chases longer and more fun, but for this to be viable, the game lengths need to be increased dramatically to give them time to have these "fun" chases and still have a chance of winning.
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Obviously we would need to go into specific tweaks on multiple of those killers to fix each of them around this design philosophy. The key problem is that these killers powers are way too punishing when used which is why they end up only being used at locked animations like at pallets when they can guarantee it.
I'll use PH as an example but the same philosophy will apply to the others.
Using PH's ranged attack is so punishing that it's almost never worth the risk to try and use when there's no line of sight and behind walls. We fix his issues by adding a recovery time when putting his weapon down, this is to add counterplay at the pallet/window itself and get rid of the lose/lose scenario. In exchange, we improve his "skillful" attacks behind walls and out of line of sight hits by making them less punishing and more rewarding. Make the ranged hit faster to reduce its dodgeability slightly, lower the recovery time after using the ranged attack and apply Torment on ranged attack hit. He is now incentivized to make skilled plays and is rewarded if he does them well.
Now the lose/lose scenario at pallets/windows is removed and his hits now will be skilled ones where you were actually outplayed and the killer predicted your movement. This is the same concept we would apply to the others.
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uh huh. are "boring killers" defined as "killers I lost against because my usual methods dont work on this new one?"
Cause that's how all the other survivors with this complaint define it.
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When people call a killer "boring" they don't mean they cant use the looping meta on them. Nurse for example is fun to play against. She has counters that are simple and it feels good outplaying a good nurse. She also requires you to play more stealthily instead of the usual aggressive gameplay. And at the same time she is still a strong killer
The Spirit is also a strong killer but she is considered boring due to her lack of counters and information. Without information or counters, the survivors will usually just go down in less than a minute of the chase.
Do you see why survivors call other killers boring and some not now? :)
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Survivors also call Freddy, Legion, Huntress and Oni boring to go against. What's the excuse for that? lol
They may be powerful/annoying, but they have plenty of counters.
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Yes, literally that. I should be rewarded as a player for mastering the mechanics of the game, and my experience should matter and help me win chases. Killers like Spirit, Deathslinger and PH all can get downs with very little possible input from the survivor, unless the killer is bad. And that's not the way the game should be, and therein lies the problem with BHVR's current design philosophy: They're so obsessed with making killers "anti-loop" that they've essentially removed survivor skill from the equation. It's just like old Legion, where going down isn't an "if" but a "when". So yes, when my thousand hours in this game is suddenly meaningless because the killer ignores survivor input, it is very boring.
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Why is a killer being able to route effectively the problem? I didn't want to contribute to such a pointless thread but I think what you mention is important to discuss.
It's really not that deep, the problem is survivors REFUSE to change the way they play no matter what. Let's say PH is chasing you around killer shack, you can safely loop it twice and then run away or drop the pallet, assuming the third time you try to loop the building he WILL be able to bait/use his ranged attack to hit you anyway. You could have dropped the pallet early or left but survivors want to always have the upper hand in chases, absolutely nothing the killer can do, cause it's my right to loop this building AT LEAST THREE TIMES.
And the killer is supposed to be the "scary" and powerful side?
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Spirit and Deathslinger I can give you. Neither of which have any real tell. Pyramidhead is easy to loop though.
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Who’s even considered a fun killer anymore? I’ve seen every single killer get called boring by this point, but aside from Billy who a lot of survivor mains love for some reason, who else is there? Demo, maybe?
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But exactly the same scenario: you run into shack, and you have the option of the window or the pallet. PH behind you drops his sword into the ground. Now, no matter what you do, you get hit. If you take the window, he hits you with range while animation locked. If you drop the pallet, same thing. If you just run thru the pallet, he just picks up his sword with 0 cooldown and m1s you. That's the frustrating thing. You're forced into a situation where, despite every resource you have, you have to take a hit.
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"Boring killers" is when a killer main get enough bullying from survivors gen rushing and start playing with really optimal killers like spirit, freddy (yeah, he's really disgusting) or deathslinger (what? I can loop him for days, just learn how to "read" when he's going to scope you), so survivors can't loop for half a game (Deathlinger, Spirit) or can't gen rush (Freddy).
I myself play as Oni 'cause he's fun as a f. (it's always a good feeling when survivors ######### their pants on your blood fury activation - aka run to the nearest jungle gym or get rekt) but when I see the survivors bring 2 or 3 toolboxes on a lobby and check that they're SWF (steam profile) so they'll probably be running one or two prove thyself, I just bring my "unfun" impossible skill checks Doctor build or Forever Freddy :D
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Your thought process sounds similar to mine in a post I recently made. Mind checking it out and seeing what you think?
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You took nothing from what I said. You can effectively loop the building once or twice BEFORE he can successfully bait the hit, unless you're terrible at tight looping you can know for sure WHEN he'll be able to hit you and play accordingly, it is only after you've ALLOWED the killer to get close enough to get in this win/win scenario that they can successfully pull it off. You knew it could happen and you decided to play the same way you do with every other M1 killer.
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Honestly beyond Spirit, PH, Deathslinger and Hag, I don't have a problem with any killers these days. And even Hag I don't mind as long as they're not the type that spams 7 traps at a hook. Certain killers can play scummy, like Ghostface, Freddy or Leatherface, but they're not inherently unfun.
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I think he is wrong and should be reported. :^)
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He's a 115 killer, unless you were 40 yards away from him to start, he'll be right on top of you in 1 loop. And that still doesn't provide any solution for the problem I've raised: it just sounds like your solution to running a PH is just "hold W until I go down"
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It's part of being an efficient survivor to 1 be alert and 2 know when to start running from the killer, you're making it seem like he's not loud as hell and you cannot plan your route in case he comes.
On top of that "hold W till the killer gets bored of me" is 90% of killers. Pig, a chasing wraith/hag, clown, etc literally have to eat loop after loop after loop cause they have no way to catch up/bait survivors. Giving survivors TOTAL CONTROL of loops and chases is the literal complete opposite of balance.
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I get what you're saying, but the point is dropping the pallet early as the only real counter play at a loop isn't fun for anyone.
You can't just loop twice and then drop the pallet or run because that's a guaranteed hit. We aren't saying it's too strong, we're saying it's not fun for either side.
The goal here is fun interactions on both sides while making the killer still strong.
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Yeah it seems you were saying essentially what I was as well.
I'm not particularly fond of a portal solution though. It feels like a bandaid fix that's kind of out of place to me.
I'd personally add extra mandatory objectives that slow the game down without just adding more M1 holding to the gens. I also think the average map sizes need to be shrunk down. Many are still much too large.
I also prefer this solution because I'd rather not fall into the box of being forced to give every single killer a movement ability.
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But that's exactly the problem: with other killers dropping pallets and vaulting windows is the way survivors can elongate the chase. With PH a vault is a hit. A pallet is a hit. If you drop the pallet early, PH just respects it and forces you to vault it again next loop, and you get hit. So survivors have no delay tactic besides just run in a straight line.
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I think you have some very very good points but at the same time I think it's utopical to think both sides will have fun solutions for every situation. DS is not fun, just like NOED is not fun. Even if fun is a subjective matter, it would be impossible to make both sides enjoy the other's tools to win. I hate going against Trapper and Deathslinger, but I still try to find enjoyment out of being chased and try to adapt, knowing full well they both have weaknesses and shortcomings.
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I don't get this idea that psychological reads are "boring". Saying Deathslinger has "no counterplay" is incorrect, he has counterplay in the form of making correct psychological reads on how he's going to act in a given situation and conditioning him to act in a particular way as you play. Just because you can't literally react to his shot doesn't mean you can't mentally figure out how the Deathslinger player is moving and thinking. People aren't random dice rolls, they're fundamentally predictable even when they try to act "randomly". I would think that figuring out how opposing players behave and acting accordingly would be more interesting than, say, being able to 100% counter an opponent if your reflexes are quick enough to react to what they are doing on-screen.
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Just because fun is subjective doesn't mean it's not a sliding scale that can be made more fun for both sides. I don't think DS or NOED is fun or good design for that matter.
If you read my example of fixing PH, I think this would illustrate my point very well. That change would make him much more fun for both sides.
I think that killers that are fun for both sides while still being strong is not utopical.
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Because the seemingly only solutions to make killers less "boring" is to make survivors as powerful as them in chase..that cant happen
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Ok, I'll try and make you aware of why these killers are considered "boring".
Legion is boring because he is literally man with knife. You can't interact with his power at all, he is literally Trapper without traps. Not to mention he was the worst killer to be released and caused a lot of backlash towards the devs.
Freddy is considered boring because there is way too much in his base kit which is something I agree on. He has snares that he can spam endlessly on loops with no penalty, he can teleport to generators with a small cooldown, and he has the stupid micro-sleep that penalizes you for nothing. On top of that theres no way to cancel any of his special abilities.
Oni isn't boring, his power is just too easy to get.
Huntress is annoying right now cause of her busted hitboxes.
I can really give you a explanation on why every single killer is classified as "boring".
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You're not listening to what I'm saying. You can still drop pallets and vault windows to extend chases but with these killers survivors are no longer IN CONTROL of the chase.
There are now repercussions to mindlessly looping the same tiles over and over and over, and you must plan a route ahead and strategically move between tiles to juke the killer. It requires much more skill from BOTH sides, but since survivors now have to plan as much as killers in chase instead of just going around the same tile 5 times it's a problem and unfun gameplay. You can still fake a vault, you can still stun the killer, you can do the same things you always have, you just have to be strategic now.
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I agree with your point, but the point you're arguing isn't what he's actually saying.
"I don't get this idea that psychological reads are "boring""
IE This is not what he's saying.
You can predict the Deathslingers actions entirely and it won't matter is the point. The time for his aim and shot is quicker than your reaction time possible. If you go through the pallet you get hit and if don't you get hit, either way. It's a lose/lose scenario.
Note, we are not saying Deathslinger is too strong or OP at all. We are simply pointing out that it is designed in an un interactive game play manner that isn't fun for either side at windows/pallets.
I even think Deathslinger could use buffs. We just want interactive and fun game play for both sides.
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Let's make every killer weak enough to get pwned 1v1 by even average survivors so high level SWF can become even more busted. Sounds like a great idea
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But you literally can't, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. The survivor is left with zero options against a competent PH, because no matter what they do, they get hit. PH's lack of cooldown picking up his sword means that faking a pallet drop or vault results in zero distance gained, and dropping a pallet early just causes the PH to respect it and hit you vaulting over, or kicking it immediately and forcing the exact same situation 8 seconds later. You've yet to explain to me what a survivor can do against a PH that results in them extending a chase, other than "play smart".
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Everyone is saying Hag is OP now and she's one of my favorites to go against. Hell, I'll take a good Nurse over a good Spirit ANY DAY. Played Myers earlier and was told he needs a nerf because he can down multiple people with 1 Tier 3. I don't look at many threads about nerfs anymore due to people just not knowing how to avoid a killer.
Hag may be boring to you but hella fun for me. It's just a matter of how you play against them. I've made so many PH's DC all because I know how their range attack works. You can easily abuse it to your advantage. Any map with some type of stairs or a different level is hell on PH. If you don't understand, mention me and I'll explain.
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People have to realize that they WILL lose chases as the game is designed that way.
If the survivor and killer have equal skill the killer SHOULD always win as its a 4 v 1 against the killer.
The game doesn't fundamentally work if survivors could truly 1 v 1 the killer but survivors find their fun in 1 v 1 due to the rather bad objective system (Doing gens isn't inherently interesting unless the killer is involved) we currently have.
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Well I have to agree to a certain point:
Both deathsslinger have little counterplay in a chase.
They are both dependant on the killer to make mistakes for survivors being able to make plays.
So from a survivor standpoint i get it that they are boring. Only counter is to genrush because Both new killers lack map pressure.
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Thats just survivors own medicine.
If a survivor knows how to loop and has dead hard to rewrite mistakes into good plays its boring for nearly every old killer.
Just loop 2 times and drop pallet. No fun for the killer.
This is just a flawed game mechanic on both sides.
Somehow there are only two options:
- Killer has power in a chase, if both sides play optimal in a 1v1 killer wins ( deathslinger and PH)
- Survivor has the power in a chase, if both sides play optimal in a 1v1 the survivor can run the killer for 3 gens ez (Legion, Plague, Myers etc)
I would love skill based chases, but appearently theres no killer in the game that has a 50/50 outcome in a 1v1 vsa survivor with equal skill.
Thats just the result of the whole chase mechanic with pallets and windows, loops and base speed of killer and survivors.
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Any killer that can't easily be bullied is unfun and boring. That's what this is about. Survivors with thousand of hours are so bored with the gameplay that they get their fun by ruining other people's experiences instead of just doing what any other normal human being would do and that's play another game. You can't bully a Freddy/Spirit as easily so it's unfun
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I don't think many survivors like going against Nurse to begin with, and fun is subjective. And I think that most survivors want to use the looping meta, because it doesn't take a lot of skill for a big reward. It is the same reason DS, BT, and Unbreakable are popular right now...
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Never hea ed d a good survive call oniz or huntress boring that actually have counter play.
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So what you are saying is, this is like the survivor hiding in the closet with ds ready for when the killer grabs him. There is nothing to be done to counter it. Got it.
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I think the developers should implement bots. You could set the AI up in a way it'll play exactly the way you want it to. It won't chase you when you're unhooked, it won't chase you after a set amount of time, it won't get too close to the hook, you could choose what it reacts to and how it reacts, you could bar them from using certain add ons or perks, and you could even give it "feedback" at an end game chat where it'll respond to you in preset responses.
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Is this based off of Tofu's newest vid? Where he (like Scott) discusses "boring" killers. (I'm putting the boring in quotes because obviously it's subjective what killers people find boring to face on a personal level and from a gameplay standpoint)
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That is exactly what I said. The forum only rides the bandwagon and nothing else.
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Oh oh what if...
So the general idea that a lot of people would like to see is a reduction in his quick scope, aiming down sights.
What if he had 40M or even 72M range, but past--what is it 20M is his current max?--his bolt breaks off the chain and keeps sailing. A survivor impaled with this bolt takes a health state, and lets out a cry of pain every X seconds. They are able to remove the spear with a few skill checks.
I mean it kind of makes him similar to Huntress, but they could totally tweak the bolt breaking off the chain, like it severely arcs down after the chain breaks, so a deathslinger would have to purposely aim higher to get the bolt to go max range.
The drawback to the extra initial range would be that Deathslinger would have to either find his bolt again or go into a locker to get a new one. If he hits a survivor with the chain then same situation as usual, he gets his bolt and chain, reloads, keeps on truckin'.
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Killers I've seen described as boring:
Trapper
Hillbilly
Wraith
Myers
Hag
Huntress
Doctor
Cannibal
Freddy
Pig
Clown
Spirit
Legion
Ghostface
Demogorgon
Oni
Deathslinger
Pyramid head
Killers I haven't seen described as boring:
Nurse
Plague
So congrats to nurse players, although I suspect the fact that there are a complete total of maybe 50 players who don't play struggle nurse has something to do with it. No gratz for plague players because there are no plague players.
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I hate the word boring, It's just another way to say this is op/that is op to get the devs to nerf that what does not need it.
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We should remove pallets and loops then. Lets make survivors when they hear Terror Radius run in straight line until killer catch them. What is the point of my Skills/Expearinse/Predicting the killer if i should always lose the chase to rank 20 wraith because its 1v4.
Actaully what is the point making this game an online game then? make the killer play against bots.
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I mean, a thread lasting 3 days sounds pretty good for a discussion already had hundreds of times.
May I ask OP an example of a "non-boring" Killer that stands a chance against good Survivors?
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I never said they shouldn't be able to delay but a lot of people seem to believe they should be able to loop killers of equal skill for 3-5 gens which simply put isn't the case.
The killer is DESIGNED to be able to get you eventually as most of the game's dynamics come from stalling killers in chase for your team to finish generators and doing risk/reward with hook saves.
Survivor's being untouchable to killers in chase shows a large skill discrepancy rather then balance.
The game's main dynamic is interacting with the killer and the killer needs to win chases to be able to foster that interaction as if survivors always win interactions of equal skill then the killer CAN NEVER INTERACT WITH THE SURVIVORS.
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I find legion and huntress annoying but only because of legion having no chase interaction and hatchet hitboxes being the size of small planets.
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I like to refer to them as "cadillacs".
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If you go up against a killer that counters loops, and you can't use stealth to, you know, avoid being in a chase in the first place, I would posit that you haven't "mastered the mechanics of the game." Almost every killer that counters loops is beaten by stealth. Except for Doctor. Still have trouble figuring out how to counter him.
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Freddy can lock down loops so fast you don't have any interaction and patrol gens like none other. Absolute most boring of all.
Spirit is fun if you have spine chill if not then its guessing games. No fun.
Legion forces very thrilling gen rush. It's that or heal forever and most likely die of sheer boredom and desperation.
Doc has his moments I have no complaints aside from the tier 3 slug heal block.
I'd like to add that ghost face is boring because you're damned if you look at him and you're damned if you don't. Not much to do then but run spine chill (again) and be a wallflower.
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