Why I think Noed is not unfair or op perk
You didn't care to cleanse totems and rushed the gens hoping the killer has no noed because "it's common decency not to run the perk". Toooooooooooo baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad :3
Comments
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Trying to get all totems to counter noed is a bad against because
1. You're wasting time and killer might not have noed
2. If you get totems that spawn on obvious areas then the very well hidden final totem that becomes a hex would be troublesome to find.
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I don't think NOED is unfair or OP, but I do think it isn't healthy design.
You are rewarded with free downs you didn't earn because survivors were lazy. I'd like if it punished "gen rush" by giving the killer more time to make skillful plays. Then it fulfills its purpose but makes you actually earn them.
IE something like activating 3 random gens after the last gen is powered if they didn't do all the totems. Making the survivors do 1 extra gen in other words.
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if someone says "it's common decency not to run NOED" i'm just gonna respond with "it's common decency not to run every second chance perk under the sun, and yet, look at your build"
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I dislike NOED because it mainly punishes solo survivors over SWF. As a SWF if you get NOEDed you have no excuse. As a solo, how are you supposed to know all of the totems are done? I can do 4 totems and be unable to find the 5th, only to learn my team ended up not cleansing it and getting rocked by NOED.
It's just unfun to play against as a solo player.
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Your argument is invalidated by the fact that the "counterplay" to the perk is stronger and more useful than the already ridiculously strong and completely unearned perk.
You want to run NOED and claim its balanced? Fine, I hope you get all my DS/UB opponents/teammates. Y'all can go have a nice time together. Away from me. In your trials of boring, frustrating mutual toxicity.
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Wasting time is the point if you're worried about no weird you risk wasting time if you don't want to waste time then you risk being hit by it
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I would argue that totem scouting is not wasting time because it's one of those secondary objectives in game, plus you can bring perks and maps to help you scout for totems, essentially taking less of your time to find them.
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- Wasting time is exactly the whole point of Noed. Just like DS is for killer to waste time on a downed survivor who doesn't even have DS perk. You take the risk, you suffer the consequences. It does not always reward to cleanse the totems or not to cleanse them.
- There is a perk to help find totems. The choice not to run that perk is on the player, not the game's design. You have the option to ease your search for totems or run the chance that they are either easy to find or hard to find. Hex totems should be hard to find, otherwise they would be wasted perks as they get cleansed quickly before serving their purpose.
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I have the same thoughts about it for the most part, although there are some very valid points out there. Namely:
- It's way harder to deal with solo where you can't ask the other people how many totems they did.
- The 'counter' to camping is to do gens and leave, but if you do that, you aren't cleansing totems and you risk a second person dying to NOED.
Granted neither of those are really unsolvable issues, the latter being fairly rare in my experience, but they are very fair points and I don't think they should be completely ignored just because you're alright with the way it works.
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So, should we be expecting more killer perk nerfs because of survivor main complaints? I mean, some of the most recent perk changes were pointless attempts to try and cushion the blow of the Billy massacre... Should we just be ready to have anything with a high pick rate be decimated instead of trying to address underlying issues?
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Rare? Every camping bubba ive met runs noed because of that scenario lol. Unless you rarely deal with campers so thats why your saying that. Which i do myself but yeah otz literally made a noed camping bubba stream where he got solid 4ks the whole time. It was pretty atrocious and i hope you guys have a plan for that. Also totem counter on detectives hunch would solve the 1st problem buffing solo.
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Well there has to be a compromise if its changed or we get what we got with ptb hillbilly
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They should add a totem counter and make totems more faster to cleanse, I think that would fix noed problems
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Could we at least get a compromise and have the Exposure notice instantly, rather than on first hit, like every other exposure effect?
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No? I never said anything like that. If you disagree with the points people have made, please feel free to explain why they're wrong. Immediately jumping to "Woe is me" doesn't make their feedback invalid, it just shows that you're not really interested in having a discussion about it.
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Right. Me, personally, I don't go against that many actual campers. Actual campers, at least. I do get a fair few "I don't get it, I sprinted right at the hook before the killer could leave and now he's camping" campers, but that's totally fair and I'd blame my teammates in that situation, not the killer.
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I don't really care if people run noed or not. At a certain point, you take the chance as a survivor and do what you can if it activates or not. At a certain level, you know how to cleanse it or are able to escape regardless.
I think that the real issue is people that rely on certain perks to win them games. At the end of the day, if you are relying on noed to win your games, you really aren't a good killer and aren't getting better. When you are able to win regardless of the perks that you put on, that is a good killer. I also want to point out, I am not calling the person who posted this a bad killer. I don't know how they play and what they are using. It is statement in general.
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Give small game a totem counter that says how many more totems are left 😃
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I just wish there was a way, a single way to know if the killer has noed before the exit gates are powered. pretty sad when you cleanse all totems and the killer doesn´t have it. then it wastes survivor times for nothing. i wonder, if there was a way to know if the killer has NOED, if it would have some impact on gen speeds, 'cause survivors would spend some time cleansing totems, or not cleanse them and get exposed at the end.
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Yeah then he has a survivor slugged and one hooked so thats 2 on gens at most he'd be dumb not to jump on that. But it is really sad to genrush a bubba because hes camping just to see another teammate go because of noed. Because then he drew which should never be a thing with camping. But the problem isnt on noed really either its the fact we don't have enough time to do all gens and escape before survivor dies on hook. Playing fair should always override cheap tactics in my opinion.
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######### I like peanits now??
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If you guys added a baseline totem counter, point 1 would be solved.
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And if you are solo that thinks Noed is a problem you have Detective's hunch which after all gens are done you should have clensed all totems, or at least have a hunch of were the Noed one would be.
The Noed complains should be ignored it's not a great perk. A Noed killer has to play with three perks all game and then hope to get some value out of it. Nerf it and gen rushing would be even worse.
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Everybody knows you don’t see good players with NOED but you’ll always see bad players with NOED.
It really is “training wheels”.
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Also it's a hex. So chances are high it'll just spawn next to a generator anyway.
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I think we need to be careful about how much information we hand over to survivors for free. A big part of the game is using what information you have to intelligently manage your time.
I totally agree solos need some love, but free info can really tip the balance.
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It’s info swf already has. Solo q desperately needs some help and bringing them up to swf levels makes it easier to balance the game.
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I agree fully. But just giving everyone SWF info would require massive killer buffs/survivor nerfs across the board. The reason survivors lose games is almost always them using their time incredibly inefficiently (due to lack of info) or being too altruistic. The more info you give to survivors, the more efficient they'll get with their time and the harder it gets for killers.
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This, exactly.
One of the two main reasons I quit being a survivor main was the insane amount of tunneling/camping killers running NOED. Do the gens and leave, only to get one or two more fed to the mouth breather playing killer at that moment. It was very boring, always led to crap BP whether you got out or not, and fed overall bad behavior. The tunneling and camping has taken over killer play from rank 20 to rank 6. You can easily rank into red ranks being a braindead mouth breather tunneling hardcore in every match. Why? NOED. If you stop to cleanse, you give the killer 1-2 more kills. If you don't, you give the killer 1-2 more kills.
Easy fix that really helps solo players more than SWF, and in reality, helps killer players get better (I could go into the lesson I learned about NOED as a crutch when I started playing killer, but I'll save it for now).
- Totem counter attached to Detective's Hunch or Small Game: As a player who favors running Trapper and Pig over all other roles, I have no problem with a totem counter. Why? The more time you are cleansing totems, the more time you are not on a gen. I'll take every second I can get.
- Make NOED require a pre-requisite to activate - but guarantee it activates regardless of totems remaining. Or, remove it as a totem, give it a pre-req and have it be a 60 second burst at the end of the game. How would this work?
- NOED does not spawn unless you get x number of hooks, or hook each survivor once. Period. You have to spread it around. This may be a bit controversial and could hose over killers where someone DCs or dies by other means (RBT).
- NOED is on a timer. For each hook you achieved during the match, NOED lasts 45 seconds plus 30 seconds per hook. The more you hooked, the longer it lasts. If you gain 7 hooks in the match, it is permanent until destroyed.
- NOED is no longer a totem, it is a 60 second end-game burst.
- NOED is no longer a totem, it is 45 seconds, plus 20 seconds per stack (stacks are gained for each hook).
- NOED is still a totem, but if the killer did not achieve 5 hooks during the match, the totem's aura can be seen by all survivors on the map.
For those who say it would be too limited in the end, why waste the perk slot, so are several other survivor perks. Hope is extremely limited, yet still used. NOED, in any of these above forms, would still be a great perk for end-game builds. It would not be removed from any of my EG perk builds.
Look, I don't really care about NOED. In it's base form, it is a good perk. I do hate seeing it abused by lazy players who get rewarded for crap efforts. It punishes players already being punished by a lazy, toxic killer. Sorry, but hardcore camping/tunneling from the start is lazy and toxic. It is also insanely boring! So, if it gets nerfed, you can thank these types of players that are often defended on these forums. Just like toxic survivors earned a healing nerf, in no small part due to self-caring at pallets, lazy killers are pushing for a NOED nerf.
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Okay here is my take on it, I like how BhVr has been dealing with Noed feedback, instead of straight up nerfing it! (Nerfing something to solve the issue with it) they introduce new perks to help counter it. Soul guard I have fallen in love with! It was a nice addition to the game that truly counters noed slug fest. While not completely countering the perk. The killer still can get at least a 1k with noed but if someone has soul guard he can’t go for more without some risk.
I find the whole “Nerf this! Its waaay too strong! Op broken! Etc etc” arguments to be going down the wrong direction instead of nerfing perks, add perks,killers, hell even new items to help deal with those perks! Like how they added PH just the fact he exists might deter some players from running DS since he renders it useless.
kinda trailed off during that but TLDR is instead of nerfing everything, buff other things or add new things entirely to help counter against what was asked to be nerfed.
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For the first issue, give us a totem counter.
For the second issue, literally just use your brain. If you know a Killer is camping and you see gens start to fly, that means the rest of your team is genrushing, meaning you have all the time in the world to go hold M1 on bones.
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🤷 Just start it with 1 down and give it tokens for every hook, like devour hope.
0 tokens: 1 use.
2 tokens: 2 uses.
3 tokens: 3 uses.
5 tokens: 4 uses.
That way it's not completely useless if a killer gets zero hooks (since it's still a hex perk), and it rewards them more for completing their objective (hooks/kills).
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Theres not enough time to do both though before 2 minutes have passed. Each totem takes 15 seconds theres also travel time and looking around.
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It really is enough time, especially when you factor in things like there being more than 2 gens left, the hooked Survivor not being dead when all the gens are done, or bones having already been done by this point in the game. Add on to this that even with NOED, the Killer still has to actually chase someone down and hit them, and you have plenty of time to do bones in this scenario.
And just an FYI, it’s 14 seconds, not 15.
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I am quite happy to see the amount of discussion this has raised. I think I should provide my more detailed take on the Noed since people are this interested to discuss the perk based on a quick off the lip opinion.
I think Noed is a great way to punish gen rushing, I think that's its purpose just like ds's purpose is to prevent tunneling. Noed is not there without a purpose just to offer free hooks. The whole existence of noed perk makes some people cleanse totems just like ds makes some killers not pick the survivor even if they don't run ds, out of the sheer fear of not wanting to eat it. This is powerful psychological tool to make survivors want to cleanse the totems... also, it gives good amount of blood points so it's not entirely wasted time even if the killer ends up not having it.
However! I do not think the perk is perfect, not in the slightest. It has so much more potential to be tweaked to something more balanced that will please both sides, killers and survivors. I don't know how exactly, but that's for the devs to figure out.
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You'd be pretty embarrassed if you tried that with a build I'm running.
As for the op. While I don't think Noed is unfair or op. Maybe you could actually articulate why. Rather then telling them sucks to be you.
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the solution is to rework the perk to not activate just because gens are done and totems are active. There needs to be another prerequisite. Played many games with killers that camp each survivor they catch and then gens are done and they have a 1 or 2k and then they slug with noed and get the last two kills because you guys allow the perk to exist as is. CHANGE IT for the better of this game because it ruins this game's experience. Just make it require all four survivors to be hooked and the totems and then the toxic camping people that use it have to adapt. You guys have expressed not wanting camping to be desirable and punish the killer's points for it but its not doing anything. Making it require each person be hooked won't affect killers that play effectively because they'll get the four hooks but killers who camp the whole game won't benefit from it and will be further punished for their bullshit strategy that works because you have this perk that helps encourage it.
Survivors will have to continue doing totems, BUT killers will have to do something other than having the perk equipped or guarding totems. It will force them to hook survivors which is their goal to pressure them. Yes camping can be a legitimate strategy , but when its their only strategy and they do it the entire game what are the survivors not in a coordinated swf supposed to do?? They just lose and it turns people away from this game.
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I think nobody will be surprised if NOED falls in the end. To many complain about it.
Personally I have run it only 1 time to test it. I think it is a great perk if you run in a fully trained 4 swf, but otherwise it is a bit too much imo.
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NOED is fine. We have a ton of second chance perks. If NOED gets changed when we already have 1 shot killers, all second chance perks should be nerfed. When you get gen rushed and NOED is there to teach them to slow down.
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Sure they will.
But I'm beginning to suspect that someone works at bhvr who is only happy if the forums explode :). This opinion has nothing to do yet with NOED, it goes back much more in time.
Nerfs are not uncommon if enough survivors complain. Guess that's the nicest way to pronounce it.
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To be fair: The developers have repeatedly used lets just say disproportionately light words to describe their intended....Removal of Usability of fan favorite killers.
So its easy for people to be on edge about this given the current and historic circumstances surrounding this type of subject and the developer's words on it.
As for my opinion about this: To make playing against NOED better is as simple as providing a totem counter on the Hud as a quality of life to the game as its knowledge SWF groups have(How many totems are remaining) but solo survivor's don't.
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In a perfect world i'd say its fine, but we have camping killers and we have ebony mories. Mories just need a rework, but my idea was to make it require all four survs to be hooked once to not allow the perk to work for camping killers that rely on it. I've had too many games lately where the killer camped most lately with a hag that placed like 5 traps and they'd stay walking in and out of the room patrolling the hook and they did it for the two people all gens done noed pops, down chased surv down surv at gate easy 4k. That playstyle shouldnt be allowed because its completely unfair especially with a killer like hag. You gen rush to avoid the camping but then you get punished by noed existing and its incredibly unfair in those situations. The perk in other situations will be the same as it is now.
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I never care about NOED cause I always use Small Game and I make sure to take a walk around the map twice per game.
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I only ever run it to insidious nurse behind an exit gate all game. Just to scare the ######### out of whoever opens it and leave them.
It's funny as hell, but ultimately useless.
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Would a totem counter not be a good thing to help fix this. It won't make any difference in a swf team since they already know how many totems are cleansed and their locations. It would help bridge the gap between solo and swf teams.
If killers want something as compensation couldn't we allow them to see all totem auras, with the hex totems being in white. This would give them massive information on where the last totems are for noed. If a survivor cleanses a totem it will tell the killer their location.
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i'd only use that line if the surv actually was running every single second chance under the sun, otherwise, i'd just say "just do bones dummy" and move on with my day
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