Should be an emblem/score multiplier for instant downs for the chaser emblem. and other emblems
Instant down killers/killers using perks that instant down suffer in the chaser emblem quite a bit and don't get as many chaser points as it effectively only counts for half a chase.
easy solution is to double the amount of chaser emblem points gained for instant downs (and broken status effect downs for infection). this would affect ghostface/leatherface/hillbilly/myers/huntress/oni/deathslinger and plague without perks. and everyone else whilst running an instant down perk (ie devour hope, haunted grounds etc)
sublte change, but it would close the divide between people using said perks and those not, as at the moment playing an instant down killer can actually lose you emblem points in a weird way, if your chases aren't long enough.
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survival also is a pretty hard emblem to pip within/get points towards as a survivor. you only really get points for surviving in a match long enough and in incredibly short matches, even if your not downed you can escape and only get gold (very rare) or escape in long matches whilst only getting a silver or bronze emblem due to being downed/hooked a lot.
i feel that lessing the time requirement and buffing the points gained for general survivability (being healed, escaping chase) would be more beneficial to measuring a survivors ability to survive rather then not being downed all match and escaping. also time spent out of chase in a match could also be included in this when it comes to emblems, whilst engaging in other actions. these changes would value a survivor participating in the game more whilst not being downed/regain points after being hooked etc, over just sitting in a locker all match, then running out the exit gates. another neat change to prioritize this and buff healing somewhat, would be to grant survivors survival points much like if they self cared, when being healed by another teammate.
ie survival emblem points should work like the altruisim points system, losing and gaining points based on what happens in the match, with components from lightbringer and boldness being brought in to tighten the curve and make sure your actively participating in the match. also prioritzing being healthy over staying injured as a reverse variant of the killer emblem, for keeping survivors injured.
tldr : instant downs should have no effect on emblems, as killers are based around this as a portion of their mechanics, and the survival emblem should factor in less a survivor escaping, but what a survivor is doing efficently during the time they are alive, along with their ability to stay alive and escape. prioritizing healing oneself and being time efficent during the match, rather then allowing survivors who get in a single chase/do a gen to pip whilst spending a majority of the match hiding it out.
survival points should also include being healed by others, to buff out incredibly long matches where killers aren't downing and hooking, but no gens are being done fast enough, in order to grant a similar/equal amount of survival points for prolonging the match by being healed by other players.
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I actually like the idea of them giving you less reward. You are in essence doing HALF the work of a killer who doesn't use instant-downs and therefore should be given HALF the reward. The Chaser emblem also rewards shorter chases for killers, with under 8 seconds for a hit being considered "perfect", and longer ones for survivors.
The Benevolence emblem is also a communal emblem that covers unhooking and healing for all survivors. Survival is literally lasting as long as you can. What would be nice for it is for escaping to give a guaranteed gold, as it already does, but there is also the possibility of getting gold if you last a long time, or until EGC starts. Not that survivor needs an easier time getting emblems as it is, though.
I get what you're saying, but I also completely disagree. Half of the killers who have instant-downs can have one easy change done to their standard gameplay on the player's side and it would stop just about all of the pipping problems. Plague especially.
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I agree with this in terms of powers. If you use a power effectively, then you get severely punished in rank. You're a great player at Hillbilly, Leatherface, Michael, Ghostface or Plague? You just don't pip anywhere near as well as say, a half-decent Spirit or Nurse.
They should receive something like 1.5x points for chaser and malicious with one hit downs from their power, or for survivors who remain broken by infection for like 60s after being unhooked, long enough that it's a choice not a tunnel.
I disagree on it affecting perks though. One-hit-down perks make the game incredibly easy when they're active and take very little skill from the killer's side, so I don't think they should be rewarded as highly as skill using the powers. That said, second chance perks effectively give survivors additional chaser emblems so I guess the case could be made.
That's just completely nonsensical to me. Most of these cases are punishing people who have higher skill with the killer, and you're saying "players who negelect the power entirely and play like a rank 20 M1ing everything are the ones who deserve the pips."
A Billy who wins every single chase with a chainsaw doesn't belong in the mid ranks any more than one who gets every hit as an M1 deserves to be in red ranks. It's even more of an issue with adepts where you're essentially forced to play powerless which shows nothing about how adept you are with the killer.
"Half of the killers who have instant-downs can have one easy change done to their standard gameplay on the player's side and it would stop just about all of the pipping problems. Plague especially."
Yeah, just never infect anyone ever. Great Plague strategy right there.
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So I think you're actually thinking of the Malicious Emblem.
Chaser awards points for getting a hit in chase and that's about it. There is no bonus benefit to leading longer chases as killer. Mainly because you want to end chases quickly to pressure the survivor team. Both long and short chases that ultimately end in a down should award the same amount of Chaser points. Though longer ones might give you more Hunting Bloodpoints.
Malicious awards points per hit, meaning an insta-down (or one of Myer's insta-kill abilities) miss out on points in this category. Downing a survivor with basic attacks will ultimately yield 2 points (Healthy -> Injured + Injured -> Dying). Using something like a Chainsaw or Evil Within III only nets 1 (Healthy -> Dying).
Best fix would probably be to adjust this category to reward/penalize killers for survivor health state changes. Ie, any time a survivor went from Healthy to Dying state, the killer would be rewarded with 2 points regardless of how the survivor reached that state. This would ideally help killers like Plague, Leatherface, and Trapper who tend to put survivors into situations where they can be downed in one hit (or grabbed out of a trap), while also slightly toning down Legion's ridiculous potential in this category.
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The issue there is that for Plague, 90% of the time survivors don't go from healthy to dying, they stay injured all match so you only get 1 point per chase/down instead of 2.
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Exactly. if your playing effectively within your means, and utilizing the killers power well, then you get punished in emblems for it. it makes doing adepts a lot harder then it needs to be on these killers, and also punishes using their powers effectively. your going to get far less emblem points as a hillbilly, a leatherface or a ghostface, then say a legion who gets an overabundance of points due to quick hits/short chases due to his tendancy to leave players and get everyone injured quickly.
thing is though, it's removing the ability to even get a higher score in these emblems due to the charecters ability. for perks i can agree that there should be a smaller multiplier, as it is effectively shortening a chase etc etc yada yada. But as a ghostface, if im somehow managing to instant down everyone? i should be rewarded in terms of chaser/malicious emblems for this.
and the thing with the survival emblem for survivor is im not trying to outright make it easier, im trying to make it easier on the people *playing the match* and WAY harder on the people who are just... hiding in a locker all game? like, a claudette who hides in bushes, does a gen, and hides in a locker all game at the moment is going to get iridicent survival for walking out the exit gate, despite not really participating in the game. sure they survived, but they didn't do it in any fashion that truly.. interacted with the killer? they just held m1, pressed spacebar once or twice and left. and they got to pip. its like in the old bloodpoint to rank system, how i could literally rank up by just bringing the biggest charge toolbox/sabotuer and saboing all hooks, then doing a gen. i'd pip, but i didn't do anything at all really, and died. i just gained enough bp to rank up through that system.
a player who actively participates in the match, who was hooked and actually had to loop/do gens/be altruistic and still escaped should be a higher rank then a player who just left out the exit gate. A player who survived uninjured the longest, and was active in the match, should also be rewarded for their good play, and denying the malicious category for killers (i believe thats the category?) This does beg the problem of well what if the survivors verse a plague or legion? to which i say they should only be rewarded small amounts of points for being uninjured/healing, and more for remaing alive during a chase or action. higher priority on being active and surviving in the match over being inactive and surviving in the match.
i think in my head i combined both the Chaser and malicious emblems. because they for the most part deal with the same things. but yeah your right. using a power to gain a down, should count all health states removed ie ghostfaces instant down should count all health states when taking into account the chaser and malicious emblems, but so should a trapper trap/a honing stone trap/a padded jaws trap. all of those things count for removing different levels of health states, and the emblem system should reflect that.
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Seriously? THAT's your counter-argument?
Ok. Fine.
I never said NEGLECT your power! And in fact Hillbilly, who you mentioned there, has the BEST MOBILITY IN THE GAME that is also an instant down. Use it to go around the map.
Plague can just HIT PEOPLE WHILE THEY'RE INFECTED AND NOT BROKEN. You get the infection and you get more Chaser. Done.
There is also zero skill outside of the norm in hitting a normal attack with something like EW3 Myers or a Haunted Ground hit. Or even old Insta-saw.
The Claudette you also speak of is punished heavily in the Chaser and Lightbringer emblems for not doing much. They may safety, and I did also say that survivors have it easy with pips. Stealth isn't rewarded as much for the survivor side. And yes, I do play a lot of stealth on both sides.
So, yeah. You've clearly put zero thought into your reply, and decided that I'm clearly ignorant or stupid for going against what you say, rather than asking for clarity. Thank you for showing what a healthy discussion you are after. If you are confused about something I say, you can just ask for clarification. It makes me so much more pleasant to talk to.
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A. Never mentioned a Claudette, that's someone else.
B. "Hit people while infected not broken." Again you're saying a killer should basically ignore their power. Don't actually use it effectively, waste your time giving survivors an extra hit-sprint and then eat 3 more pallets to get a second hit. KILLERS SHOULD NOT BE PUNISHED FOR USING THEIR POWER especially not exactly as it's intended to be used. That also applies once per match per survivor unless they decide to cleanse. You have no power to force people to cleanse, and often they choose not to until very late in the match, which means like 75% of your chases are one hit no matter how you play.
C. "There is zero skill outside of the norm in hitting a normal attack with something like EW3." Except for the staring at survivors to build up your charge to EW3, in which time a regular speed killer could reasonably go for a first hit, instead Michael uses his power and plays exactly as the devs intend and is deducted points for doing so. Oh but I'm sure "just never go to EW3 to be a high skill player."
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Hence why I suggested this would make more sense when based on health state changes. Killers lose Malicious points any time that the survivor heals a full health state; they only really keep the point from downing an injured survivor (provided they hook them afterward). Because of this, killers don't actually lose on points if the survivors aren't able to fully heal before being chased, downed, and hooked again.
It's also worth remembering that hooks actually count for Malicious points in addition to Devout.
(A) So a normal M1 chase for Malicious would look kind of like this:
- Killer downs a survivor (Healthy -> Injured -> Dying): +2 points
- Killer hooks a survivor (moving them forward one hook state): +2 points
- Hooked survivor is rescued (returning to injured): No Change
- Hooked survivor is healed to healthy: -1 point
Net Change in Malicious: +3 points
(B) And say the survivor wasn't able to heal before you chased them again:
- Killer downs the survivor from Injured: +1 point
- Killer hooks the survivor: +2 points
- Hooked survivor is rescued: No Change
- Unhooked survivor is healed to healthy: -1 point
- BUT, unhooked survivor was not fully healed from their previous down & hook: +1 point
Net Change in Malicious: +3 points
You would lose out on a point from only needing to move the survivor from Injured back to Dying, but you would also get to negate the point which would have been lost if this survivor had healed. So ultimately, this awards the same amount of Malicious points. Same deal for killers that survivors tend to purposefully not heal against like Plague and Legion (though Legion can technically hit one survivor in chase an infinite amount if they really want to, fun fact).
(C) A normal chase for Plague's Malicious Emblem:
- Plague makes a survivor fully sick (breaking them): No Change, not considered an attack
- Plague downs the sick survivor: +1 point
- Plague hooks this survivor: +2 points
- Hooked survivor is rescued: No Change
- Unhooked survivor cleanses back to healthy: -1 point
Net Change in Malicious: +2 points
(D) *For Plague after adjusting points to be rewarded from Health States instead of Attacks:
- Plague makes a survivor fully sick: +1 point
- Plague downs the sick survivor: +1 point
- Plague hooks this survivor: +2 points
- Hooked survivor is rescued: No Change
- Unhooked survivor cleanses back to healthy: -1 point
Net Change in Malicious: +3 points
This is all kind of in a vacuum, assuming that the killer will immediately hook everyone that they down and that survivors will not escape the killer's shoulder before being hooked (or use things that cause Endurance). Slugged survivors who get picked up and fully healed currently lead to killer getting no Malicious points from those attacks, and actually cost a point to any killer who downs a survivor with a single attack (whether from insta-down, sickness, or bear traps). Using Health States to give/take points, "one-shot" killers would not be able to lose Malicious points like this, plus they would gain back the point they normally forfeit in standard chases. These examples are pretty basic, but hopefully they illustrate the point.
Your average insta-down killer (and Trapper) will likely earn points similar to Plague's normal result with the current system for this emblem (since they tend to "skip" a necessary attack like she does). Changing this over to be based on State changes would bring them more in-line with other killers for Malicious.
Would it give these killers a slight Malicious Emblem advantage by awarding the same amount of points for potentially half the hits? Yep. Am I okay with that? Also yep.
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Plague is an exception to the two hits rule because of her power for a majority of players, and my method has zero real changes. The only difference for mine is is they escape, then they're broken and you get chaser.
Myers you can also do well outside of EW3 hits, but the main thing is don't get 100% of your hits with them.
I've not once said in any thread to ignore a power. You can go through all 2,600 of them and check if you want. What I have said before is you should not DEPEND on it for 100% of your lethality. If you'd take two seconds to take a breather and read every word once or twice, then maybe we'd not run around in circles like this.
Do NOT put words in my mouth. I am blunt, but what I write is 100% of my meaning. No hidden meanings. No nothing.
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This is it pretty much in a nutshell ngl.
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