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So they really won’t tell us what is considered “skillful,” for MMR huh
I played about 10 games on each side yesterday, but it hit me I don’t know if I “did well,” or not. As survivor I had some good chases, some saves, did some gens and totems, escaped maybe half the time. Is that winning or playing skillfully who knows?
As killer I was against potatoes so I played super fair, I literally let the teams reset a couple times to avoid really short games. Now I’m wondering if I should have done that or if that’s considered failing?
Now supposedly they’ve said it can take 10 matches before MMR starts ranking you properly... and with killer MMR being separate it may be a while before everything shakes out, but will we ever know?
I felt like my games yesterday were even more random than before, 1 great teammat and 2 potatoes that lasted 10 second in a chase every time. Or 3 great teammates against a poorly outmatched killer and I had that happen multiple times.
As killer I purposely played the killer I’ve played the most recently, because mods have said MMR was accumulating data in the background but I still got paired against absolutely horrible survivors to be blunt. I’m not great, but I had 6 straight games of 4K with zero or one gen done. Not fun for the other side I’m sure.
So again I ask, how will you ever prove that it’s working correctly? Or how will you know you’re doing well or not? The answer is we won’t, everything is hidden and secret so they can just match 5 random players and we have to trust them.
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Last night was horrible, hoping tonight is better, if not gonna take a break until this is fixed.
Its simply not fun to play with people who just installed yesterday. Majority of my games you could tell 2-3 of the players had no idea what they were doing, they definitely did not play like red ranks do, and I was the only red rank in the matches.
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I just don’t get who these games are fun for? As killer I really don’t enjoy easy 4ks despite what some people think. Maybe some killers do I guess?
As survivor I don’t enjoy a 5 gen chase against a baby killer? And I didn’t enjoy the games where I was literally the only person doing ANYTHING. Kindred was constantly showing me teammates standing, like literally just standings almost AFK but clearly there because they did move rarely.
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Play to the best of your ability and see if the trials feel fair. If they do, the MMR is working properly. If not, it's not.
Which games using an MMR do you know that not only show you everyone's MMR, but also explicitly list every last intricate detail of how their copyrighted intellectual property (i.e.: the MMR algorithm) works?
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That's my biggest concern with MMR, we don't know what they're basing it off of, especially since a win is in a game of DBD isn't exactly concrete.
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Every last detail, I’m not asking for that, but there is no broad idea either. At least in most games you have a general idea like “kills you get vs times you die.”
They could say, “escaping is a big part as survivor,” or let killers know which is better, dominating a team quickly or a drawn out 12 hook game.
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The survivors' goal is to survive, the killers' is to kill. IMO, it's pretty obvious that a big part of it is going to be escapes and kills. The ranking system also gives us an idea of what they consider skillful.
I think the devs' main concern is that if they give out too many details, people will try to game the system. They know a large portion of the playerbase would love to be able to grief newbies and/or bad players. With that in mind, I'll reiterate: just play to the best of your ability and see if the trials feel fair or not. Remember that your goal as a survivor is to survive and as a killer it's to kill.
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The trials don’t seem fair, and it’s not just me and my 10-ish games in each side... watch streamers who play dozens of games each day and the games are still a joke. I’m watching 8k hour killers being matched up against survivors who literally never look behind them. Or camp a pallet, drop it and run without waiting for a break.
Also we don’t “know,” surviving and killing is a big part just because it was before. Especially considering they said the old MM wasn’t a good indicator.
The biggest thing for killer comes down to being nice or playing fair, the old system punished you for quick games but maybe the new MMR rewards you for obliterating the survivors?
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"They know a large portion of the playerbase would love to be able to grief newbies and/or bad players."
Lines like this make no sense when literally the big complaint is red rank players being matched versus rank 20 killers. Or red rank killers destroying rank 20 survs, come on.
As a red rank, I dont want to play against killers with less than 50 hours. We dont want to play with rank 20s thats the whole point.
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What do you mean game the system, like smurfing? People don’t need details to smurf, if you want to lower your MMR you just queue up as killer and AFK. If you’re a survivor you run straight at the killer and let him hook you then attempt escape and don’t struggle. Not giving out details won’t prevent smurfing.
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Killers like Otz stopped giving hatch yesterday to see if 4king constantly would change his experience because players like him with well over 5000 hours, were getting survs with like 100 hours in the game. I am guessing I will try the same, I was letting survs go last night because they clearly didnt know what they were doing....
I literally saw a player with 10000 hours paired up against/with players with 42 hours.
42 hours vs 10,000
that is broken no matter how you spin it/
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Do you think the people who like to grief would come here and say "This new MMR allows me to grief as much as I want and I love it!", or would they be too busy griefing?
Surviving and killing is a big part because it always has been and always will be. It's in the name of the game and the names of the roles. Why would it no longer be relevant?
If the trials don't seem fair, then MMR might not be working properly. There are other alternatives, which I didn't think about before.
From what I understand, the MMR will kinda toss you between extremes until it figures out where you fit, like trying to guess a number between 1 and 1000 but only knowing if your guess is higher or lower than the number you want. That means newbies will have to play against experienced players for the algorithm to properly determine their skill level. We might just be seeing the result of that, in which case it will stabilize at some point.
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"If the trials don't seem fair, then MMR might not be working properly."
10000 hours vs 42 hours
I was matched against killers with less than 100 hours and I have almost 2k. Felt bad for them.
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With more details they could figure out how to lower their MMR without having to spend several hours doing nothing and receiving no BP.
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Did you read the rest of my comment? Here, I'll quote it for you:
There are other alternatives, which I didn't think about before.
From what I understand, the MMR will kinda toss you between extremes until it figures out where you fit, like trying to guess a number between 1 and 1000 but only knowing if your guess is higher or lower than the number you want. That means newbies will have to play against experienced players for the algorithm to properly determine their skill level. We might just be seeing the result of that, in which case it will stabilize at some point.
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Nobody is asking for every intricate detail of their algorithm, but with most games you have a general idea. E.g. in an FPS if you miss every shot and die without killing anyone your MMR will decrease, if you kill 30 people without dying your MMR will increase. But there’s no real equivalent in DBD because if I get paired with teammates that are new to the game I’m much less likely to escape, and even if I were the best survivor player to ever pick up the game that would be true. So you can’t entirely base it on escapes and kills.
Just a general idea would be nice. Considering that neither the player base or the devs can come to any kind of agreement about what constitutes a win, a little bit of clarity about what matters would help people believe that there actually is an MMR system at all. Right now my first hand experience with this new system leads me to believe that they just switched off matchmaking entirely. None of my matches make any kind of sense, the skill levels are all over the place.
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So despite being told MMR has been running in the background quietly gathering our rank/skill for some time now (we dont know how long) youre telling me it just randomly throws you in imbalanced matches.
Ok, well at least we know its random as suspected LOL
Anyone who can actually play this game knows the moment youre on a team with zero understanding of the game, and after last night, it was apparent, after having rank 20 killers and survivors who obviously did not know how to play etc,.... you confirmed what we knew, that its random and not working.
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I didn't confirm anything, I offered possibilities. I don't know how it works or why it's doing this, I'm just thinking outside the "BHVR incompetent" box. I've been quite explicit in this with the use of phrases like "I think" and "might".
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Play to escape as survivor, play to kill as killer. The rest should come naturally. That's my guess, anyway.
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What detail could possible help you lower your MMR quicker than literally running at the killer and killing you self on first hook?
no you’re being a white knight as usual, hey ghoul maybe it’s going to take some games to even out despite the fact that BHVR devs and mods on the forums have said it’s been gathering information so not even will start at “zero MMR.”
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YOu missed the point, or did so on purpose.
If MMR has been running in the background the idea "it needs to stabilize" is false.
People keep saying it takes about 10 games,.... ummm, I played more than 10 games last night alone, and MMR has been running for weeks, so the "it takes time to stabilize" excuse seems like crowd control but not truth.
PS I didnt say anythinjg about BHVR being incompetent, I just dont like the games I am being matched in
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It seems pretty obvious to me that it’s tied to the metrics that make the blood point system and emblem system. They already have numbers, it’s already behaviors body of work of what constitutes performance, and behavior is known for band aid fixes.
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I like giving the last survivor hatch or door especially if they're clearly new or a bit crap, but idk if that's really doing them a favour anymore.
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He’s ignoring it on purpose, some people are too tough on BHVR but then again some people will defend them to the point of it being sad really. One of the devs could go his house and dump all his garbage on the floor and he would say, “well maybe they have a plan for that let’s be patient and see.”
As far as the repeated “escape as a survivor and kill as a killer,” yeah people have been doing that and still you see 8000 hours vs 50 hours from either side
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That's one of my concerns as well. I don't want to be given the hatch by someone who completely outskills me if I'll just end up going against even stronger killers who might not be as merciful.
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I wish they at least told us what a win is now for each side. With how emblem system was designed I really don't know if killing/surviving is actually skillful when you can hard carry your team and then get facecamped or do 8 hook but then everyone escapes.
I don't want full description to all actions that the system is based around, just tell me if killing/surviving is the main thing or not.
Also "just play and if match feels fair then MM is working" is the most horrible excuse ever. I had decent portion of matches that felt just about right with previous system as well and that system defined winning conditions in great detail for me while also telling me where I was rankled so this new one is by all means a huge downgrade.
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My guess is it breaks it down like..
- escapes through gates > regular escapes from hatch > hatch escapes with key
- sacrifices > moris with perks or powers > moris with offerings
So for survivor escaping through a gate will add the most to your score and escaping with a key will add the least. For the killer, it's the opposite. Escaping with a key will subtract the least from your score and escaping through the gate will subtract the most. And the same idea for sacrifices / kills.
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Also "just play and if match feels fair then MM is working" is the most horrible excuse ever.
It's not an excuse, it's how every game with an MMR works, but for some reason only BHVR gets flak for it.
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Literally, no one typed the word "BHVR" or said anything negative about the dev team except you bringing that insinuation in h the thread.
We are complaining about the imbalance of matches in regards to experience in the game. You and only you mentioned "BHVR" in the thread.
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It's also annoying people defending "rAnK dOeSn'T mAtTer"
While i'm still facing with brown rank killer with only 1 perk or me team up with 3 brown rank survivors with 1~3 perks
Sure buddy, let's trust random internet
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So we're just gonna pretend that literally nobody here is talking about BHVR even though they're complaining about DbD's MMR in particular? Alrighty then.
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Other games with MM rating tell you what rank you are and how to increase your MM rating. DBD doesn't do either as of now.
Ranks don't matter and we go not official answer on what defines a win. Is me hooking survivors 8 times but then they all manage to escape a win or a loss ? Did my rating improve or decrease, I don't know since I don't know what defines a win unlike before where I knew it and just didn't care since it wasn't that great at properly ranking people by skill anyway yet it was better then knowing nothing like now and forcing me to play new players until it supposedly "settles" which I highly doubt ti will.
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Hidden MMR is the standard for competitive games, even when they place you at a particular rank (gold, silver, whatever). Which games do you know that only have a rank and no hidden MMR?
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I never say negative things about the devs. I actually state that I believe in them on this forum so for you to assume that just because someone has a complaint about the game that they are speaking negatively about the devs is quite the reach. And seems like attempt to derail the thread about something that no one mentioned except you.
SO I guess you think the game is perfect with no complaints, better not or youre putting down the devs. Get real.
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I never said what I think of the OP, so why are you acting like you can read my mind?
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It would make sense to use the Devotion Level to roughly estimate the skill & experience of a player and then from that point on let people rank up / down depending on their performance.
I've seen actual Devotion 24 players with several thousand hours of playtime going up against Killers with less than 50 hours for several matches in a row.
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IMO they should place every new player in the 25th percentile and everyone else who didn't play when data was being gathered at whatever the average MMR is. I highly doubt any newbie can play better than the bottom quarter of players right off the bat, which would help isolate them from completely unfair trials, and everyone else should be at least average at the game. Devotion doesn't really count for much since it just shows play time; they might as well use the normal rank for that.
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So by “nobody here,” you didn’t mean this thread?
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Good point. I'll edit that to reflect I was thinking of your OP in particular.
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Dude is trying to derail to get thread locked 100%
He was the one reading minds making insinuations no one was talking about BHVR, we are discussing a legit issue with the game.
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I was offering potential explanations for the issue and was labeled a "white knight" and insulted for it. You in particular kept asking loaded questions. Who's trying to get the thread locked?
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That could of course also work, the importance is that they use something to filter out actual noobs. Right now it's actually disastrous what lobbies the matchmaking is putting together, it's a nightmare for new players and the experienced players are getting bored.
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Honestly that all I'm asking for. I want to know my rank and how to reach it, I don't care what my MMR is specifically, I want to know where I am compared to other players be it gold, silver, diamon or whatever they would name it. Problem is as I said already that devs aren't telling us anything which isn't ok in my book.
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We will still have the previous ranks displayed. Nothing's changed in that regard.
Agreed. I'll open a suggestion thread on the subject in a bit.
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I used my huntress last night which I'm not very good with and I don't have many teachables with and all I got matched up with was red ranks and one 5 mixed in. Not sure what they based it off though obviously but huntress is not even in my personal top 10 and I would have needed someone in my top 3-5 in last nights matches.
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Exactly. No one is asking for details, well I'm sure some are, most aren't. It would be like watching a basketball game where baskets count for "something," and stolen passes count for "something else," and dribbling 10 times in a row counts for "something," but noone knows what and there is no scoreboard. Then when time runs out they don't even say who won but everyone should be able to figure it out themselves.
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Are the old ranks used for matchmaking ? If so then that responce is valid, if not, they're as good as decoration. At least I have never seen a game with correctly working MMR system that is matching players from bronze with masters and calling it working properly.
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Not much mystery in what factors in this new system, honestly. Can you lead a chase? Can you safely rescue? Can you do objectives? The only thing that is left to question is are they factoring in the perks add ons and offerings. It would be nice but I highly doubt it.
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Does it matter how many pallets you drop in a chase? Scott make a great video about it, if I get chased first and camp drop every pallet for a 4 minute chase did I “do better,” than the teammates who had zero pallets to use so only had a 1 minute chase?
Can you safety rescue, what if the killer achieved zero hooks all game? That should be even better than safe rescues right?
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If the killer disconnects are you penalized for achieving less in the match? Specifics make it easy to manipulate and bm so I can see why they won't detail what works and what won't.
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I don’t get the concern about manipulating it if you mean to lower your MMR on purpose. If you mean manipulation to increase your MMR despite not being good that’s a concern but then you end up against really good players so I don’t think anyone is doing that honestly do you?
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