I Did Bones. You Need A New Excuse.
This is just a reminder that yes, there are indeed survivors who do bones in order to try and counter NoED. These players also generally don't gen-rush.
When these players come here and say that NoED is indeed a terrible perk and needs changing, they're right. They do not need to "git gud", they do not need to hear "Just do bones." and they do NOT need to hear a garbage spiel about how easy the perk is to counter, the killer is "oNlY pLaYiNg WiTh 3 PeRkS!" or the points of DS/BT/DH/UB being perks and can be stacked.
To now make the "Do bones" argument null and void, I will now highlight every way that this argument is totally invalid:
- Survivor perks, such as Decisive Strike and Unbreakable are used with the hope that they are NEVER ACTIVATED. Well, for a lot of their users anyway. People can claim this as being perks down, much like the arguments for NoED.
- The so-called Survivor equivelant, Adrenaline, is only a small and temporary boost while NoED is permanent if activated. Yes, the health state is temporary, but there are several killers that have base-kit instant downs so this really shouldn't be THAT big of an issue.
- NoED does not discriminate between those who have done totems and those who do not. This leads to several cases like mine where I am commonly doing 3-4 dull totems MYSELF and getting killed after only one hit and hook. I am being punished for others failing, not my own failure. I know that Survivor is technically a team game, but there is a point where the individual should not be punished for the failures of the team.
- It creates bad habits. Rather than actually adapting to applying pressure through various means, or learning how to improve in chases, NoED is used as a safety net in order to get kills that one would not normally be able to achieve, making them think that they are more skilled than they actually are. Rather than getting better at their role, they are telling others to do way more work because they refuse to adapt.
- Counters to a majority of Survivor perks are merely a change in mindset or playstyle, such as trading hooks to apply pressure and avoid Decisive Strike AND Borrowed Time. NoED requires survivors to go out of their way in order to stop one of your perks.
- The "counters" are also indirect and limited, also chewing up valuable perk slots for other perks to counter some of the more unsavoury tactics that killers use and are not perk dependent.
Main point here is that yes, I do the dull totems. They are more bloodpoints and cancel the perk. I AM NORMALLY THE ONE TO GET HIT BY IT. Most of these games, it is also the first hook that I will be placed on and will also ultimately kill me.
There are also many issues that I have with NoED on a fundamental level as a perk, especially with it's activation for both general activation and notification of it's activity. Every other Hex perk requires ONE totem to be destroyed, where as NoED can have up to 5 required, before endgame.
All exposure effects outside of NoED and Devour Hope also give instant notification. Devour Hope also has a lengthy list of requirements to activate outside of "be loosing" in order to achieve the same effect. Devour Hope is also a TEACHABLE perk, one that should be more powerful than base-perks as you have to do a lot more work for them to become available.
So, fellow killers, while you lot think up of an actual excuse for NoED being the way it is, I'll be off actually doing the damn bones whenever I decide to indulge in a little bit of Survivor while I try to progress my Archives. In the meantime, whenever any of you argue about Decisive Strike, Borrowed Time, Unbreakable just remember this advice, since it's ok for YOU to give it: Just don't tunnel, camp or slug. Never mind that the survivor ran at you or started working on that generator or unhooking that other survivor in your face. Kinda hypocritical, isn't it? That's how I feel every time I hear the phrase "just do bones".
I did them, so now what?
Comments
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Do more bones
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you're a whole mood
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Not gonna lie I couldn't agree more.
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I don't really understand this one. You do the bones every game and still getting hit by noed?
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DO TOTEMS AND READY, is it so difficult?
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I strongly agree with this whole post. NoED is a solo queue problem. Like you said, a solo queue player can do 3-4 bones, and still get hit by noed. Same happens to me all the time.
The devs need to add a token system to small game and detective's hunch. And add a (really trashy) way of find out how many totems are left even if you dont have those perks.
if a 4-man SWF complains about noed, then its a cut and dry "do bones" response. But if any other group/person complains about noed, "do bones" isnt a real response. We need a totem counter.
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Survivor mains keep saying this is a team game to justify perk destroying map wide communication so... your team didn't do bones. There are 4 of you and 5 totems, so get to it.
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there's been a thread not too long ago proposing a system to check how many totems are left.
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for me someone who NEEDS to be carried by noed is a complete noob fr me, yu never need to rely on a perk to win and it just shows the lack of skill of the player, same goes by some survivor perks but the point in this discussion is that noed is indeed a baby tier perk
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You can't argue with a wall, they will still resort to saying "Do bones" since they won't accept it either way.
Then complain more about surv perks, that's the cycle.
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So if your team refuses to do bones, why is the killer at fault? It's frustrating, but I blame the team for it, not the killer.
Noed is fine if you are in the lower ranks or learning a new killer. Otherwise it's just a failsafe if you can't end the game before the last gen is done (excluding endgamebuilds, where noed is legit).
Small Game should get a totem counter or a loud notification should play mapwide, once all totems are cleansed. That would help soloplayers a lot.
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Kekekeke do more bones
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I don't use NOED
But do the bones anyways.
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Noed is a perk that can go from the game winner perk to an useless 4th slot, like really
And its 4% Movement speed, you have a perk as survivor that also gives you a bonus 4 or 5% movement speed at the end of the game
Dont tell me youre able to do all the game unseen as the others do gens, and get found just at the end when noed activates on that last totem that you didnt do 🤔
The individual being punished for a teams action or mistake? Yeah like the pigs RBT, the plague cleansing, bringing the killer toward your team mates, etc etc...
DS/UB/BT also gives bad habits ti survivors, Noed aint the only perk that may give bad habit.
>complaining about Noed and then saying that killers dont have to hit the guy that bodyblock you when you dont tunnel, or the guys with DS that do gens, really hope thats a joke or else all you wrote just got busted there.
A killer with Noed is a killer thats gonna be an M1 killer, slightly faster, so still loopable, you can still escape, and you know exactly when it May trigger...
You know rather then complain....adapt, evolve, overcome.
I also play against a lot of noeds when i play survivor, but honestly i dont even care that much about escaping or dying, if i got the BPs , and even there i do my bones 🤷♂️
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There's a bigger issue than just "do bones." The majority of us probably play in solo queue when we play survivor, there is no way to tell others to do bones. There is no way to tell others you've already done bones. There's no way to know how many bones are even left. It's this huge question mark all for a single perk that might or might not be there. There's no practical reason to do dull bones EXCEPT NoED. Simply by existing in the perk pool it can have the power to dramatically slow down the game and even then the survivors might not get any value out of that time spent cleansing bones since they have no way of knowing if they did all the bones unless you did them yourself, or went around counting them.
If you're in SWF, then it's a joke, but if you're in SWF, you're probably also not terribly concerned about NoED. It's like the anti-solo queue perk. It's not even that it even gets tremendous value, it generally just screws over one person because not only is it a secret the entire match whether it's there or not, even in end-game it's a secret until the killer actually hits someone.
It's a strange one, because it's not really OP in the fact that it can let you down people in one hit, but the kind of way it can screw with the entire match even if it's not taken is really, stupidly powerful. At least with things like DS you get an obsession, so if you're not running obsession perks you can guess, Unbreakable is more of a pain but usually doesn't ruin the match for anyone.
I would at least appreciate a NOED warning the second the 5th generator was done. You still get the power of it, but survivors can at least try to play around it a bit.
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Blame the team for what? There are no way of sharing info with other team mates. There are lot of situations like "3 on gen", HEX RUIN, and all three start searching the totem, because you have no chance to say "dude, I have small game, keep killer busy I ll do my job".
And same in case of noed. You did 4 totems in Lery's or Gideon, you meet you team and you cannot share "all around the walls are cleared, check the center rooms".
The mechanic of selection from remainings is stupid. You cleanse 80% of totems on hard map (Like Lery's, where the totem locaions are hell). You should have 20% chance of NOED and not 100%.
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Firstly you seem to be vastly underestimating how much of a difference that 4% speed can make. It's the difference between being able to loop so many tiles another time and, especially whilst unsure of if NOED is in play, can result in the down into hook into face camp.
Secondly, op was saying that if you believe noed to be fine and survivors need to just "do bones" then ds, unbreakable, and Bt are fine because you just need to "not tunnel or slug" .
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NOED shows the killer's insecurity because it implies that they will reach EGC in the first place
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Yeah that second part, makes more sense if mea t that way
And maybe i underestimate what 4% are, but i also already was able to loop a bit around a killer or even escape, giving at least my team enough time to open the doors (just sucks if he gets noed right when he was about to normal hit you)
The thing that i dislike the most about noed is how easy you can camp the hook/bones on some maps when both are near each other
(I see you on almost every topic, how much time do you even pass in the forums? Just wondering)
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It may sucks for solo player but at the end of the day, its still a team game. You cant do everything solo and you shouldnt. If one survivor could do everything solo the game would be near to impossible for killers.
You have to work together in order to escape even if its extremely hard in SoloQ but that doesnt mean you should can do it solo
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No, it's not "extremely hard," it's "literally impossible." There's no way to communicate any information whatsoever about totems. There is no way to work together. You just have to do your part, on your own, and hope someone else had the wherewithal to also do totems, and that the combined totems you did were all of them. Because you can't talk to each other.
That's not teamwork, that's just individuals individually doing objectives. Or not. Maybe no one else did anything.
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A lot. I have nothing better to do so when I'm bored I boot up the forums and respond to topics I find interest in.
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The only thing we need is a totem counter,honestly.
Other than that noed is fine
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The only downside to that, yes DS and Unbreakable are used with the hope of never being activated BUT DS forces to slug...if you don't see the unhooker (I try and go to the unhooker and if I see nobody..I'll go after the unhooked one)
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@DudeDelicious is right.
I go out of my way to do bones in EVERY SINGLE GAME just to try and avoid NoED. I'll ignore generators for a good minute or two at the start of the game to focus on just totems. If I miss just one totem, then it is usually me who dies to NoED. Generally I'll get through about 3 dull totems by myself, while also going for saves before I am nearly forced onto generators to get some Lightbringer emblem.
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Well, yes, but the main point there was the hope of it never being used, and hypocritical advice being given to counter a perk that isn't used 100% of the time.
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Do you know this is a killer forum, don't you?
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My Solo build since months: Inner - Detective's Hunch - Quick & Quit - Iron Will
Or just bring a Map.
If you're SWFs there's no excuse for getting NOED as you can count and call out the totems. As solo try to cleanse the more hidden totems at the start, so the potential NOED can be found easier later (most likely it's the last one). So yeah, NOED is much more a threat vs. Solos. Better don't get hit first and always expect it.
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It's not the killer's fault, but what is would be the advice of "just do bones" that litters the forums. This is because I am the one doing the bones and getting punished because my team can't carry their own weight, their advice is not at all helpful and I just need to hear anything other than "just do bones" or "equip a perk that doesn't help deal with bigger issues" from killers.
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I play both. Depending on the thread, there are people who are on either side.
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Less that totems in a map
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Decisive Strike is only a problem if you allow it to be, or if survivors abuse the power it provides. It is not a fundamentally badly designed perk.
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Disagree with the "you shouldn't be punished for your team"
If you did 4 totems and your team did nothing. Most of the time you'll already have "won" through pipping
Escaping is a team effort though so imo yes if your entire team ignores the secondary objective then you as a team should be punished even if you as a player did 80% of that objective by yourself
Your team should have difficulty to escape if only 1/4 of players play smart.
I do agree that it sucks as the player that did all the work
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Because they do 3-4, not 5.
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"Don't get hit" is not a 'counter' to anything because you cannot judge when you get hit or not.
That's like saying don't let them get hatch if they have a key.
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So, someone like me who uses DS as protection to heal up should be punished because some survivors like to take advantage of some killers greed? I admit that it sucks to see people do it, and if someone tries to take advantage of me like that, they die next.
Also, since when is FAIR a factor, when tunnelling is fine? So many killers don't give a flying care about what's "fair" to a survivor, but do a complete 180 when something happens to them.
Does what happened to you suck? Yes. But I don't see how that compares to NoED and it's problems being core to gameplay, rather than a community based issue.
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Doing bones is just what the killer want you to do. It's a waste of time. Just note where the totems are in your head and if NOED triggers check the totem(s) you remember, if it isn't any of them just open the gates and leave.
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I am not complaining about NoED directly. I am saying that "Just do bones" is not a valid response for complaints about it. Nice try.
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"Don't punish the many for the actions of a few" was indeed the type of message I was going for there. DS Abusers are a small group of survivors, and it is annoying to hear people complain about them constantly.
I did also acknowledge the fact that perks like Small Game exist, but did also say that as a solo player I am almost forced into using other perks to deal with other issues, such as tunnelling and slugging, and Small Game didn't make the cut.
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Hope also doesn't let you pick yourself up off the ground and go to full health.
Yeah, I can go unnoticed. I got to red ranks as a stealth player, back in the days of original Ruin, so yes. I can go throughout an entire game without being chased, or if I am, I don't go down or hooked. Usually I'll get done just after the final generator is complete or if the killer catches me at the gate.
Pig's RBT is indicated to an entire team, not to mention a cascade of problems to kill someone. Plague's Cleansing has audio queues not to mention isn't actually a horrible idea now that she has one fountain available base. Some times I also need to take a breather away from the killer, especially when I've been chased for a while and need to heal.
I never said that NoED was the only perk to create bad habits. Just that it does for KILLERS. As someone who also uses DS for it's intended purpose, I can indeed say that it isn't as bad as how NoED influences killers.
The line after the "just don't tunnel, camp or slug" line was literally about it being terrible and hypocritical advice in an attempt to bait people into saying "it's not that simple".
I did adapt, I did evolve. I don't even care about IF I live or not, but what I hate is the terrible "advice" that keeps on getting perpetuated across these forums. This is not about the perk, this is about how we as a community tell each other how to deal with it.
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How a discussion aiming about solo survivors struggle with bones became a decisive strike debate. SMH.
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No one escapes death is a very awkward perk.
Coming from someone who runs a lot of endgame builds (which typically requires you to let endgame happen) so I will talk about it in a purely endgame standpoint. It's a perk that usually won't net you more than one kill if you're up against smart people.
Most smart survivors will either just leave once they realise you have it or go immersed looking for it until it gets destroyed.
As for perk yes it could completely snowball in the right circumstances but it looks also do very minimal to outright nothing.
Honestly when it comes to the Perk I would suggest a couple of things.
1,) Allow totem counters on survivor related perks like small games or detective's.
2) change no one escapes death so it's not at endgame park but conditional this way you would have to achieve a certain conditions for it to spawn making it more reliable on The Killers end and would feel more fair on the survivors end as the killer earned it.
3) keep it as an endgame perk but change the buffs it gives you they would still have to be powerful considering it's a hex that is not active for most of the game but you could pick something different from exposed. For example something similar to a fully stacked save the best
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Aite lemme breakdown your counter argument.
1- But, EVERY game, the killers entire objective is down and hook you, so 100% of the time DS and BT and Unbreakable and other stuff are ALWAYS viable. You might go a whole game without using DS, but, the killer might have seen the obsession in the bottom corner and assumed you had it so lost pressure avoiding you on purpose to go for somebody else, it's always a constant threat.
2- There are, two killers out of 20 that have a CONSTANT one hit down ability so in 1/10 of games this applies. Adrenaline saves half a minute that you would have to spend healing, and can be very brutal in a SWF. It also gives you a sprint burst.
3- In a team game the individuals will always be punished by their teammates under-performing that's why "you're only as strong as your weakest link" is such a common phrase IRL. Unfortunately that's just how it is, you're going to have teammates that just rush gens, That's not even a bad thing, because NOED doesn't just give you a down, you still have to earn it, you can still be looped.
4- You are right here, it does create bad habits and it can completely turn a tide of the match. But, only until a certain rank. At green rank you might safety with the one kill NOED gets you, but as you get into Purple/red you will start depipping with just one kill obtained from NOED, at which players will have to start looking at themselves. NOED is a perk designed to help new players who are in a unfortunate situation which can be abused by higher ranked players, just like all the crutch things on the survivor side.
5- By that logic, Thrill of the Hunt is unbalanced because survivors have to go out of their way to prevent the perk. It's a secondary objective. Which is why all Hex perks are risk/reward. Survivors may do no Totems so you get maximum value out of Ruin/Lullaby/NOED etc etc or they actually do something other than rush gens like doing totems.
6-Alternatively just bring a map and whatever perks you want.
I am by no means a killer main, I play both equally and don't really have a problem with NOED, and when I do play survivor I play solo 90% of the time.
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NOED is one kill
If someone got smacked and you see the hex notification pop up, just leave. That's what I do anyway. NOED carries bad killers because survivors are too worried that their hooked teammate will scream at them in the post-game chat, so they go for the unhook and it just results in 2 kills. Maybe it can work if you have BT AND the guy is hooked next to the gate, but even then it's a gamble.
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Just to counter a few argument with some slightly jokey but still not wrong statements
- "...DS and Unbrekable are used with the hope they never activate" thats funny because most killers prefer when they dont have to use NOED as well. They prefer that gens dont get done and that they win before that.
- Survivor perks, items, offerings in general need to be weaker than the killers otherwise the game would be insanely unbalanced. Survivors being able to bring 16 perks in total and the killer only being able to bring 4.
- Its a team game, to a point. You first and foremost have to look out for yourself. Sometimes you have to consider is me bodyblocking the killer to down my team mate, and probably going on the hook instead, better than them doing it. Like if they already have 2 hooks and you have only 1 or none at all, you should probably help. But if you are both dead on hook you should probably just let them die. This game is basically balanced around you being punished for your team mates mistakes. 3-genning because the team decided to do 4 gens next to each other and ignore the other half of the map. Being teamed with bad survivors that go down instantly and dying before 2 gens get done. People doing Haunted Grounds. Myers 99'ing off your team mates, finding you and 1-shotting you. On and on.
- Agreed. Except the skillful part. Im sure some think like that but those people are dumbasses. Most people accept its a safety net, they even call it a second chance perk. But hey if the killers wont adapt the survivors should, forcing the killers to adapt because they start losing big time.
- I dont think I get this part. A lot of the time where DS and BT is annoying is when you trade hooks. The one being unhooked comes back and tries to unhook the person who just traded hooks, and is "immortal" while doing so. And a lot of the time the survivors "abuse" the perks by being in the killers face with BT,DS and an unbreakable. Forcing the killer to GO OUT OF THEIR WAY to either hit them and get nothing do to BT, grab them and get DS'd, or down them after they unhooked the first guy, and now the cycle restarts. Except 2 people now have DS up and available and maybe unbreakable as well.
- Yeah well, that usually not a big deal. Unless you happen to play with a lot of survivors that like to play with mediocre builds (thats me btw, I love me some detectives hunch) then most survivors bring BT, DS and unbrekable at least in some capacity and if the killer respects one then he respects all. If he eats one DS he usually learns his lesson.
With all that said I would still like to see a nerf to NOED/DS just probably not as big as one you would like.
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Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of this. I don't think NOED is overpowered but I do think that it's a poorly designed perk.
Cleansing totems on solo queue is just not worth it unless you have a build for it (which is also dumb). Just focus on gens and deal with it after it's active.
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- NoED gets equipped so that it doesnt get activated too ? Which killer wants to see all gens being done ? It's just a "Plan B".
- Adrenaline is a really powerful perk, it doesn't matter if its temporary or not, it still comes in clutch since with that speed boost there is no way the killer can catch up to you. Just because its temporary doesn't mean its not a powerful perk.
- Exhaustion perks create bad habits. Why learn how to loop better when you can just press E to Dead Hard into the pallet ! Meanwhile, there is a perk that is not activated until the end of the game where the killer gets a second chance ! You play with 3 perks the entire match and survivors can still complain about a perk that has no use until the last minute of the game.
- What ? Doing totems are not survivors "going out of their way". Thats basically another objective ! You should ALWAYS look for bones, who knows, the killer might have Devour Hope.
- NoED is chewing up a perk slot until the end of the game, if you want to counter it easily you should too.
Overall, you are just whining. You didn't talk about why NoED is bad or stuff, you just said "If you pick NoED, don't complain about DH or DS or BT or Adrenaline". Was this your point ? If so, its a stupid point. All of these 4 perks are second chance perks that give the survivor 4 more chances, meanwhile if the killer has 1 second chance perk (the only killer second chance perk) thats bad ? And the perk doesn't even activate until the end of the game. You are just complaining that killers get another chance while survivors can get 4.
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No problem with NOED (from a survivor main). It does feel cheap at times but to be honest, the whole game does at certain points.
Also, the bones argument is very valid. Instead of spending time breaking every totem you see, try only breaking hidden ones, that way you won't waste your time breaking them, and they'll be easy to check at a later date.
I don't even think a totem counter is necessary either. The whole power of NOED is that it makes survivors waste time looking around to check totems. Aside from that, there's no reason it should grant a killer more than 1 extra kill (2 at a stretch). Adding a totem counter is basically killing the perk.
Again, this is from the pov of a survivor main (ex killer main)
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It's about the excuse "just do bones". Not NoED as a perk.
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Just add a totem counter. The only problem is that solo players don't know how many totems their teammates cleansed.
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