Balancing Legion without reworking his power is impossible
You either make him super weak or you make him super strong, there is no in between. What do you guys think? Do you actually have good suggestions for this poor, poor teenager ?
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Balancing is always possible.
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I think a few number tweaks and not depleting the power bar from a basic attack would do alot.
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It would do a lot, but he's so ass that "a lot" isn't enough.
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I kind of agree..or at least he needs a chasing tool separate from his frenzy..legion has been..interesting since he debuted
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I don't see there a problem.
Delete dw, since it annoys survivors anyways and give him the abilitie back to stab multiple times in frenzy, still with all the nerfs that the Legion has today on it.
And vola - problem solved.
Not optimal, but the best old Legion mains can get and survivors whould not need to play mending simulator anymore. That's a win-win-situation for everyone.
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So Legion would just be a fast m1 killer?
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It might not be enough. But it would be a starting point.
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Well yes, but in the addon rework that will for sure come sooner or later for the Legion, they should make the m1 attacks in frenzy NOT stronger - like they have done it before.
The basic attacks in frenzy are strong enough far as I remember and the Legion would still have that ultra-long-stun after frenzy.
I don't see there any big benefits for the Legion - compared to other killers - but the Legion would feel at least great again.
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i think he should get a addon rework speed up his speed in feral frenzy and some small other changes that would make it alot better
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Missing a stab in feral frenzy is way too punishing, especially for console players who have to deal with low FPS causing them to get spun frequently. I think missing a stab should only deplete the power bar a bit, not take them out of the frenzy. Otherwise, I don't think Legion is that bad. I think they're better than Clown, Demogorgon, Pig, Trapper, Wraith at least
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Make his power more engaging for both ends so that it isn't just Killer Chase survivor 2.0. This is also the issue I have with Wraith's power because cloak is cool and all but outside of that it doesn't do anything for him unless he's using super strong addons most of the time.
Being able to injure multiple people should be a bonus part of his power not the main part of it. There's a reason Leatherface's power was used for camping that was the main use for it before his buffs. At least he's passable now.
Legion should get a full on rework. Speed should still be his gimmick but the idea of love tapping people back and fourth is dumb. I still say the people who pushed for HIS POWER to have a penalty for missing a stab using Feral Frenzy is why he's so unfun and garbage right now. You want to know what this caused? People to just walk right behind you breathing down your neck to hit you just like what Bubba needed to do to get off a single chainsaw hit. All because people thought there should be a massive penalty. Absolutely ruined his power and made it unfun and boring for everyone.
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Demo and Trapper just need setup, they're not worse than Legion.
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Love tapping is their whole gimmick to give the feel of a whole team of edgy teens running around with stabby stabs.
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Remove the moronic "you miss you lose it all" mechanic of the power. Its a weaker version of the old frenzy yet you HAVE to land one shot or endure a stun?
Completely remove regular attacks depleting the power bar.
Adjust speed and duration so that Sprint Burst and Balanced Landing aren't GUARANTEES that they can't use their power. First change would impact Deadhard so thats covered.
Then see what happens. Honestly all they had to do was get rid of his BS moonwalk thing and they totally butchered him.
The stun should be shortened. Maybe the stun increases perk survivor you hit during one activation. So if you somehow hit all 4 THEN you get the stupid huge stun he has now. If at all cause it really doesn't make a lot of sense as it currently works.
They should also be REWARDED for being good with the power too. Each hit should increase the speed of the frenzy. Something to make the power respectable. The fact that survivors while injured will OPT IN to get hit by the power is ridiculous. If im injured and I see Legion coming in frenzy I will flat out let him hit me. Better than it burns out and he hits me for real and downs me
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I don't have an issue with missing the stab having a penalty. I think the penalty is too much though.
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The first change he needs is a reduction on the cooldown when exiting Feral Frenzy based on the number of survivors hit during the frenzy. Rewards playing the character well. Other than that maybe a slight increase to Feral Frenzy's speed and duration at base could be alright.
Legions whole strength is being strong in the 1v4, if you make him powerful in the 1v1 he can quickly become too powerful in all situations which limits counter play. Legion will then be labeled as a "Boring killer" by survivors like Spirit.
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Delete him from the game. Easy fix.
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I agree and I have said the same thing before.
Legion is similar to Mettle of Man. There is no way to balance it in its current state. It is either oppressively strong or hilariously weak.
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Not for Legion in his current state. Legion has the same maximum stun time as Nurse. That isn't right. Either make his power worthy of such a harsh punishment or reduce the punishment for using his power.
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Thing is, his 1v4 is awful. It's completely countered by some half-brained positioning and W key gaming, and even if you hit all 4 Survivors in 1 Frenzy, your 1v1 is so utterly lackluster that how much does everyone being injured really matter? Couple that with the 4-second fatigue, being punished for hitting Survivors by losing your power, Deep Wound being absolutely useless... he really has nothing. His power is mediocre at best when it isn't effectively countered and an active hindrance to Legion's pressure when it is.
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Precisely. Legion's win condition is very simple. If the Survivors heal, 9/10, he will win. If they do not, he will lose, 9/10.
His stun is longer than Nurse's when she uses two blinks AND swings. He also gets the same headache inducing blackout effect.
His power drains upon landing a basic attack???
Deep Wounds is an annoyance at best.
His power does not help him get downs.
You are technically better of not using your power if you see a Survivor out in the open.
His power should offer more advantages than disadvantages.
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They won't even need to worry about healing if they prevent his Frenzy by holding W.
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Legion is kinda okay the way it is right now.
Frenzy recovery speed is high enough for half its bar depeletting on a M1 attack to be irrelevant. Frenzy ending on a missed attack isn't very punishing because, well, - normally you don't miss basic hits outside of some clutch last moment DH you that didn't play around for whatever reason.
Generally speaking, he's similar to demo and pig - you need to have a rather specific mindset when playing these characters, but if you know what you are doing, these killers become extremely dangerous.
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I mean a good change I feel would be NOT killing his full frenzy whenever he gets pallet stunned.
Kinda apples and oranges but if Oni gets pallet stunned while in his Fury mode, he doesn't lose his power, whereas Legion, who can't use their power to down people, loses everything.
I also feel that melee attacks shouldn't kill as much of their frenzy bar as it does.
Beyond that though, Legion isn't horrifically bad. Tweak their add-ons a little to fit the newer play style that benefits Legion while getting rid of the older play style (Stab Wounds Study and Frank's Mixed Tape I'm looking at you), and I feel like Legion will be in an okay place.
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Ummmm that's not a win-win at all. You want to give them the ability to stab multiple times while sprinting but with no deep wounds. So he can literally hit the same survivor twice and get a down easily in like 20 seconds or less.
That would make him pretty much the strongest killer in the game if I'm understanding that correctly
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You sure? BHVR, write that down, please!
1) Rework Legion's Deep Wound and rename it into "stab wound" or something. Make its timer not deplete and entirely get rid of "timer goes off - you go down" part. New "Deep wound" would just be a health meter representing how much damage can survivor take from frenzy&allow legion to see the progress of the wound. The wound automatically mends when survivor is healed.
2) Change Legion's Frenzy mechanic: For each survivor without deep wound hit in feral frenzy, Legion applies Deep wound with lesser "health":
First FF chain hit just applies a deep wound. Second FF chain hit applies a deep wound + reduces its health to 66%, 3rd FF chain hit applies a deep wound + reduces its health to 33% and 4th FF chain hit reduces deep wound health to 0%, making it an instadown.
Additionally reduce Legion's fatigue if he hits more survivors. Like 4 seconds base and -0.5 seconds for each successful feral frenzy hit up to 2 seconds. Or, go entirely crazy and just REMOVE it. Replace it with another mechanic, for example: After FF ends, Legion restores their breath for 6-4 seconds. During that, Legion's movement speed is decreased to 70/80/90% and they are unable to perform a lunge attack during that time. (Legion wouldn't be able to instantly attack though, there would be a short pause before that so you can't just run to survivor in frenzy, end it and instantly hit)
Hitting survivor with deep wound in feral frenzy does FF stacked damage to their deep wound (0/33%/66%/100%) if we haven't hit that survivor in this Frenzy or does nothing (or puts some debuff, like exhaustion/bleeding/hindered for a while).
Feral Frenzy instantly ends if Legion has put a survivor into Dying state with it.
Stabby teen get a new life, yay. We trade annoying slowdown via mending simulator for lethality achieved through multihitting with our power. You also get a reason to use your power almost by CD as you get a chance for more downs.
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uh, what
what's the point of multiple stabs if deep wounds is gone?
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#DeleteLegion
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In base, usually that is the case. My apologies, I usually run the Stolen Sketchbook add-on, so my range is significantly higher than base.
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It is extremely punishing on console, where it is already more difficult to hit an attack. Plus, on maps like Lery's or Mother's Dwelling, whenever you activate FF, your FPS drops to 15.
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I actually did a full rework thread about Legion, if you care to check it out. I would appreciate the feedback!
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His power is stupid and doesn't make any sense in the context of 'The Legion' (because its original design was something else). But the devs are dead set on keeping the power the way it is because REASONS, so just short of a rework, a bunch of quality of life improvements is all we can really hope for.
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Demo isn’t bad, but Trapper is much worse than Legion. I say this as someone who loves and mains Trapper, and sucks with Legion.
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I disagree. I think Demo is pretty bad, he is a jack of all trades, but he doesn't really excel at anything. Plus, he kills FPS on console when he uses Shred, for some reason.
Base Legion and base Trapper are fairly comparable power level wise. I feel that as soon as you give Trapper a bag though, he becomes much better. The ability to carry more traps and set more traps faster is absolutely key.
The best Legion can do is to...hit more people, but not down them. Trapper cuts off areas on loops and the maps, he applies pressure through chasing people in his territory and he does it very well.
Legion relies on the Survivors to create an artificial pressure by feeling like they have to heal against him. If they simply do not heal, he will not win. Trapper doesn't rely on that.
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"Poor, poor teenager" LOL good one
I think Behaviour can come with a good and unexpected solution in the future. And it may be a rework, indeed.
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I'm pretty sure they just wanted to be able to chase you and hit you 2 times back to back and down you with Fatal Frenzy XD
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Trapper is both slow (setup) and easily countered by basic survivor tactics. He’s completely neutered by survivors with eyes who don’t run through grass, or by survivors communicating and disabling his traps. He’s hampered by RNG, big maps and bad trap spawns. His traps are extremely visible, countered by perks and items and he requires a bag add on to not completely suck.
Legion may only be able to injure people but at least they can do that. Trapper struggles to even get hits if the survivors know what they’re doing.
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Trapper may have a slow setup, but it can be borderline impossible for Survivors if you secure a strong 3-gen early. Every problem you listed can either be completely fixed or mostly negated with perks, besides RNG and SWF.
Legion is able to injure people easily, but his add-ons do not help him get downs at all. Legion's fundamental problems cannot be fixed or negated with perks. You can buy yourself time, but at the end of the day, Trapper's power does something. It can force Survivors (especially with Bear Trap Darkeners) to not take certain loops and it can greatly shorten chase times. If you need more time to set-up, bring PGTW and Corrupt Intervention. 3 minutes (at least) of minimal gen progress.
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He wouldn't know where anyone is though. Even if someone was right on top of you and you hit them, they would still have 4 seconds to get away once you eat the stun from using your power, which as I've said before, is longer than Nurse's stun.
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I always run a duration addon and a Killer Instinct range addon—I’m like the only person who finds them good thanks to my build. Even so, I wish they were still Frenzy speed addons.
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I just like the stun FF shorten.
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I would recommend trying to play Trapper against decent (not great, decent) high rank survivors and see how easy it is to set up, maintain your set up, chase, get downs, defend gens and control a 3 gen. All while having to collect your power from around the map. Against survivors that don’t brainlessly run through grass, don’t do all gens on one side of the map, use the post-hit speed burst well and know when to split up and when to focus, it’s extremely difficult to build pressure and snowball as a killer that takes so much time to collect and then use his power, and whose power is so easily countered by having eyes or playing with a friend who has eyes.
You don’t need to tell me to run Corrupt because like I said, I’m a Trapper main. I play Trapper consistently at rank one and he’s one of the weakest killers in the game. My opinion was formed from playing him a lot, trying various different perk and add on builds. He’s just got too many fatal weaknesses. Trapper can 4K against bad survivors all day long but that’s only because they make mistakes that would also lose them the match against any other killer.
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Eh, a killer being weak I don't find to be an issue unless you can make them strong by a simple number change, as there will always be weak killers. Plus, them being weak doesn't take away from the edgy bois being extremely fun.
Legion however, if you made his FF movement speed 6.0m/s, reduced stun to 3s, increased duration to 12s, then he'd be a solid mid tier.
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I wrote somewhere how you can buff them https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/ru/discussion/181078/ideas-for-dbd#lattest. Personally, I think the most balanced version of the legion is the old legion with its current limitations.(sorry if something is not clear, just English is not my native language)
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Yuck, Killer Instinct add-ons are just the worst for me. Why chase them if you can't hit them?
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Maybe. But how would it be different from any other killer getting a down and then using their power to chase another survivor.
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These are all things you could take advantage of without Legion's power. These are also things you can use with every other Killer's power. Down someone with a chainsaw, get Infectious Fright, down another Survivor ect ect. Why should it be different with Legion?
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Hex: Ruin. I combine a KI addon with Monitor for a wide map awareness, find someone on a gen, and Frenzy there to force them off and trigger Ruin. Also helps me find out if people are near my totem.
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Just change a couple things about his power and completely rework deep wound
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That's fair. I would just like to know the reasoning behind it is all. Seems like a leftover from before the Legion Rework.
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