People crying about "nO cOuNtErPlaY" seem to be forgetting the real no counterplay thing.
Yes, I'm talking about old Legion. Some of you have definitely made at least one post about "Spirit/DSlinger/Phead being op and having no counterplay" and I'm pretty sure you don't know what real no counter play is. Let me remind you.
Real "no counter play", at least in means of chase, is when your are going down in that chase no matter what you do or how bad killer is. Once chase starts you can literally start counting down seconds before your inevitable death.
When you started a chase with old Legion of out of 2 scenarios happened:
- Legion is moonwalk abuser. He simply chases you while moonwalking and your Deep Wound timer went down. It took around 16 seconds (or how much was old deep wound?) for the survivor to do down. No matter what you did, you would go down once that timer runs out.
- Legion just uses his power normally. He presses a button and becomes 5.2 killer who vaults pallets and windows as fast as you. You couldn't do anything: drop a pallet - he jumps over it and stabs you; vault a window - he vaults it after you; try a 360/180 juke - he starts spamming his attack with no penalty and no cooldown and still hits you no matter what you do. You also couldn't even gain a distance, since he just gets his own sprint burst to chase you down (although he even hadn't needed it, since he could only stab you once and chase you down with his camera turned down). Hiding from his was useless too, since he could find you using killer's instinct.
In both scenarios there was nothing you could do. There was no way you could do anything about the fact that once you started a chase with old Legion, he would get you down in next 30 seconds. You also couldn't avoid that chase. Every match with Legion was a race against a fixed amount of time which was the Xconst seconds that took Legion to down a single survivor. That is what "no counterplay" is.
Now, let's talk about current "no counterplay" killers: Spirit/Deathslinger/Pyramid Head. None of these killers has come even close to the definition of "no counterplay" which was old Legion. Each of these killers can be partially or even fully countered using certain tricks or strategies or perks. None of these killers would win every chase with any survivor in a fixated amount of time.
"No counterplay" Spirit:
- Iron will - gives you a chance in a lose-lose situation that is when you are injured. Partially useless against stridor, however it still makes tracking you a bit harder.
- Drop chase builds - lightweight, dance with me + lithe combo, quick&quiet, blendette, etc. Anything that could help you disappear in the middle of the chase. These are rare and that is why they work.
- Being unpredictable and roughly understanding her moves. Even though she has the upper hand in mindgames, you still can try to fool her and make her miss. Read any good guide about mindgaming the Spirit for more info. Of course this is not consistent (why would mindgames be consistent?) but that could give you a chance and extra time.
- Stealth builds - all these perks that help to avoid chases and being found: distortion, lightweight, OoO+Sole survivor combo (partially), iron will, spine chill, alert, calm spirit (against Infectious, just in case), fixated, urban evasion, off the record, poised, diversion, red herring and so on. Spirit is strong in chases, so if you avoid them, you don't have any troubles. Some of these perks make you stealthier, others create baits to make Spirit go away from your location.
- Spine chill - it effectively counters haunting grabs. You see the perk light up, even though the Spirit is not here/seems to be phasing in the other direction? Gtfo.
- Also, you shouldn't be letting Spirit injure you in the first place. She has very little info on you when you are healthy, so use that as much as you can.
In conclusion: don't get found and do gens. Spirit is only so strong because most people don't know how to avoid chases and are used to the aggressive gameplay style. Back to the "no counterplay", chases against Spirit aren't going to last fixated amount of time. Both sides can do different tricks to gain advantage or make mistakes that lose that advantage, which makes chases in one case last less than a minute and in other cases last for the whole game.
"No counterplay" Deathslinger
- All "be stealthy" counterplay mentioned above
- His power is heavily limited with obstacles. Always have something between you and Deathslinger. He will either be unable to shoot you or he would be unable to drag you to him.
- Drop pallets earlier. He can't hit through them.
- Try not to vault windows if you know he has time to shoot you. Try going for the pallet or fake vaulting.
- Gain distance. He always has to reload after missed shot and he is 4.4 killer.
- Try not to get in open spaces against DS. That's a lose-lose situation for you. You can try dodging his shot, but don't expect that to work.
- When Slinger is aiming down sights to pressure you, don't run left or right mindlessly losing distance. Do that juke every 1-2 seconds and keep running to the nearest obstacle/pallet/etc.
You have something between you and slinger - he can`t do #########. Counterplay there is definitely (c) Yoda
"No counterplay" Pyramid Head
- If you have a dillemma to either take a hit or get tormented, get tormented. That is the right choice in most cases. Sometimes Phead doesn't hit you and tries to make you tormented first - just crouch over trails and make him waste his time until he gives up and hits you.
- Get distance. He misses punishment - he has a long cooldown, you can run away.
- When you are within punishment range and there's some huge obstacle between you, that does not allow to see Pyramid Head - GTFO. He is very likely to guess where you are and you are very unlikely to manage to dodge that.
- When you are within punishment range and there's an obstacle that still allows to keep track on Phead's movements (low wall loops f/e) - try dodging his punishment by suddenly changing the direction you are moving, although don't be too predictable.
- If there's nothing between you and Phead and he is just charging at you with his power and you have that dillemma of "Vault a window - get punished, not vault a window - get hit", then you can do nothing. Try not to let that lose-lose situation to happen.
- Don't get tormented if you can not to. Crouch over trails.
- Always expect Phead to have "I'm all ears" when you are vaulting something. Get distance, don't remain within lethal range of punishment when you can not to.
Keep distance, don't remain in lethal range for too long and you will be able to extended chase long enough for you and your team to win.
These 3 killers are indeed very strong because they have more control in chase than other killers. Yet it doesn't mean there is nothing you can do about their abilities, which I have proved above. Please stop saying they have "no counterplay" and learn to deal with them instead of instantly pressing babyragequit button the moment you see them, thanks.
Comments
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Comparing old legion that got reworked multiple times to a killer whos power still had to be nerfed (spirit) already doesnt really work...yes old legion was kind of imba but since you say that spirit doesnt get infi as long as youre healthy...
Old legion didnt got any info neither if he could hit someone with FF so you could also say all these "stealth" build would work with him. You try to make a god out of an old king that lost his power.
Then, sorry, but no, having to USE various perks to counter a killer is not a counter, you dont know which killer youre gonna fight, or how its gonna go, so sorry but no, taking various précise perks against spirit to counter her isnt a counter, her only counter is being unpresictable but since you dont know when she phases or when she doesnt it only work half the time at best and thats the problem.
PH and DS can be countered by gameplay, its o ly annoying they can fake their powers without drawbacks, unlike huntress, trapper or billy/bubba where if you take your power you still get a huge slowdown (mode like a very short stun with trapper with the animation but it counts)
Im not saying that all killers should be countered the same way, diversity os better, but when you cant tell what one killer is doing, as shes potentially already next to you or will be catching up in less then 2 seconds, forcing you into gambles rather then actions to counter her, its just bad and should be changed
Edit: spirit also has a very small drawback for facking her power or stopping it early
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It bugs me when people say it’s “random” when you want to guess what Spirit is doing. People aren’t literally random, they’re naturally predictable, and making good educated guesses about what someone else is doing is a skill. It’s why the top poker players are consistently in the top ranks, getting into people’s heads to know their intentions is not just “luck”. Likewise acting in a particular way to make an opponent do the wrong thing is also a skill.
Outwitting a Spirit isn’t just a coin flip, if anything it’s way less “boring” than mechanically watching for a visual cue of an attack and then dodging it 100% of the time.
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Going to disagree on Spirit. If you face a good Spirit you will never deceive them the majority of the time. Sure though let me slap on Spine Chill and Iron Will every game. I'm sure non spirit players love that and it doesn't tilt them because my build should be based on a killer I'm not going to be seeing every game.
Fair points on the other two killers though (Deathslinger and Pyramid Head)
As someone whose played plenty of DS and PH keeping distance is the key to dealing with them but that could apply to every killer. Issue with Pyramid Head especially is if you're within a certain distance they almost certainly will get a hit off on you. They can keep faking out their power to make you try to juke so they can just walk up to you and if you don't juke they just commit because you're an easy target. That's the main issue with those two killers regardless of counterplay. It isn't fun to be on the other end of that and again this is an issue of having the right perks at the right time. Perks that apply to Spirit do not apply to Pyramid Head or Deathslinger at least not entirely. Both killers need a cooldown on cancelling their ability or some restriction. Nothing too hard but I shouldn't be able to spam aim down sights as Deathslinger 3 times within a second for example. Quick scoping however is fun on both ends imo and that shouldn't be touched but again my bias.
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Legion had counterplay. Everyone forgets about the fact that he is not able to see scratch marks, just one point. That allowed a lot of possibilities. Just a few examples.
You know the current window tech? You could do that on every pallet and window against Legion. My guess is that noone ever made the effort to check how it looks for Legion and optimize it. The thing is: you vault, get away, need to keep distance to the vault to be out of sight and return once Legion vaults (Legion vaulted slower than survivors btw, not much but it was slower). Many people just came back too early so that you could see the head during the vault allowing to read the double back attempt. If the survivor times it right and you don't see the head, you either need to check if the survivor got past you and risk losing distance (bad for Legion on small loops) or you assume the survivor ran, turn to the side and risk to miss the survivor before he vaults back. In addition, you still could fake the vault and 360 the pallet instead. 3 options for mindgaming on every vault.
Next to this double backup: triple backup. You move to the side after the vault, crouch back in time to get into Legions back and then don't use the vault but move around Legion to get him between you and the wall. So he doesn't see you, turns around expecting you at the vault again and sees nothing. This can easily cause like 1 second of confusion and depending on the wall lengths on that vault give you enough time to get out of sight. No scratch marks to track -> escaped the chase. Did that more than once.
Another one: Many Legion players tried to be efficient with their power, as their weakness was that chases normally take quite long, allowing gen rushing. So they were able to get into Frenzy with like 10% of the power gauge filled. Just trying to assume the distance to the survivor and how much power gauge is needed to catch up and hit. But that also created a weakness: no slash spamming. One dodge was enough in that case to force Legion into another fatigue, creating even longer chases than it would be by awaiting a full power gauge. And don't forget that old Legion only had 5 seconds of power, not 10 like now. Spreading damage was quite hard. 24m TR being helpful, but once you know you go against Legion it was pretty easy to avoid multiple Frenzy hits by just splitting early once you hear the TR.
Adding to the time aspect: Every killer is designed that you eventually will go down. So the "no counterplay" thing is basically bullshit. I agree on Pyramid Head, who has 'barely' counterplay (get punished or get hit) which allows him to end chases quickly with 'no counterplay'. No counterplay against a power that takes 3-4 hits to down you is not that much of a problem. Normally the killer decides if you escape a chase or not, and that depends on how much of his time you waste. You get your tools to extend chases, but the killer will get you if he commits. Unless there is a major skill gap and the killer simply doesn't make proper use of several tools he has. But besides that, you WILL go down. Regarding that point, the only thing about old Legion to complain about is, that he has a lower skill requirement to do so. But with that skill gap, you still were easily able to loop old Legion for 3-4 gens, especially with the tricks above.
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+1 on that, and please tell me the difference between mindgames and random guesses. Having a wall you cannot see through and the killer moonwalking to one of the sides is pretty much a 'coin flip' as well with that argumentation, never saw someone complaining about moonwalking killers.
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I think you've created a bit of a false equivalent.
For old Legion, you only talk about what happens once you're in a chase (which is you go down). That part is fine.
But then with Spirit, PH, DS, you bring up pre-chase counters which isn't what anyone is talking about. Those pre-chase counters of "just don't get found" (by the way, I love when people say that as if stealth has some kinda god-like mechanic in this game and not getting found is somehow supposed to be an option....), could also technically be applied to old Legion.
But again, we're talking about things that happen once the chase starts and those complaints are legitimate.
Spirit: I don't care about Spirit as much, and I'm fine with her in most chases.
Deathslinger: For how little drawback Deathslinger's power has when he fakes it, they just need to make his terror radius normal size like the Huntress and I'd be okay with him. Maybe. I still hate him
Pyramind Head: Pyramid Head should have some kind of animation stun in between where he lifts his sword out of torment mode and when he can swing. When I say "stun", I don't mean make him immobile. It's fine if he fakes it and then continues to walk. But he shouldn't be able to just immediately swing the way he can now. I guess what I'm looking for is kind of like the old Doctor where if he wanted to hit you after a shock, he had to switch modes. That's how long it should take PH to switch from faking his power to being able to swing
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On the note of deathslinger:
try playing him on custom matches to see WHAT he can shoot through and what not. for example: The railing/bannisters on his hometurf? he can shoot through. Railing/bannisters in the chapel? he can't.
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I'm just gonna point out the fact that if Old Legion had no counterplay then neither does Deathslinger or Pyramid Head. Old Legion could get spun if they were bad enough. PH and DS get juked if they are bad enough. It's not the same, no, but it is pretty damned similar, and it's way quicker than Moonwalking Legion.
Edit: also, Spirits counterplay boils down to guessing, and she can just equip a perk so that it's only you that has to guess. And yeah, it's always a guess. An informed or calculated guess (after she's got a few hits on you, of course), but a guess nonetheless.
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I mentioned that you couldn't effectively avoid old Legion, since he could use killer's instinct to reveal survivors. There was nothing survivors could do against old legion except trying to rush gens faster than he downs them.
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I was expecting the real infinites to be the example. 😋
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It's been a while so I honestly don't remember but did old Killer Instinct work the same way it does now where he needs to get a hit on someone to reveal where everyone is? Or did it just automatically reveal heartbeats without him having to hit anyone?
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That's the stuff we banished from the game long ago and which should've been forgotten.
Although even there was some "counter" - bear traps, nurse, trying to bait survivors from that save spot. Not reliable, but at least there was something.
Old Legion was entirely different story - you can't run, hide or force mistakes. Mechanically broken mess without counter
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You hit survivor and reveal all nearby survivors.
Yeah, you could technically hide all together, but that works so rarely, so I just assume you get revealed once you get within Legion's terror with your teammate, which was the case 99% of time
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Not much to add. Just that I agree with OP one hundred percent. People talking about "no counter" to Spirit and the rest are just frustrated and haven't figured it out yet.
Very nice summary, thumbs up for that.
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No Spirit is literraly an guessing game
you dont know if she is bating or really phasing why because the funcing sound sometimes dont appear
is 50/50 if she is bating and you get out she will hit you
if she is not baiting and you stay you will die
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This is exactly it. Even mind gaming is an educated guess to outplay your opponent. Anyone who says spirit is random has no idea what randomness is. Basically a lot of no counter play can be summed up as "I can't loop this killer the same way I can loop anyone everyone else please nerf them".
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It's not 50/50 if you ever play killer, or have observed the spirit at all.
You start to understand what moves to make when, and what moves SHE makes.
It's only a guessing game if you have zero situational awareness.
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No its always a guessing game isnt like o i understand how she moves
no its an random guy that i never had seen playng aand i dont know how he play
and as the same way if it was an friends i just has played as spirit and some times i play dumb but the survival just jump the pallet and i pick him
the only thing that i can do is using spine chill but if i decide to remove
rip
and you are right its not 50/50 because she can know where i am by my sound of runnig my scream but i cant know where she is or if she i acctuly moving
so no isnt 50/50 because spirit has more advantages
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