General Discussions
General Discussions
The unfair standard survivor mains set for us killers
I keep seeing posts of games by good streamers where they get gen-rushed and completely lose the match. Lots of the comments just say that the killer in question should just 'pressure the gens' and then point out every small mistake the killer makes and blames that for why they lost the game.
This is very unfair because these survivors expect us to make 0 mistakes the whole game or we lose. Playing killer at the moment is so stressful because you have to be using your time extremely efficiently or all the gens pop instantly. It's not good for the balance of the game when making a few small mistakes will lose you the game as killer, but as survivor you have access to perks like DH that allow you to recover from a mistake so easily.
Most killers can't be in multiple places at once, and the killers that are just M1 killers with no map mobility literally can't do anything at all against a competant team.
The problem is, BHVR won't balance the game around the potential that good survivors have, because most survivors simply are very bad. THey balance the game around rank 10-15 claudettes who hide in bushes. It's a tough situation for them.
Comments
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People are so good at pointing out mistakes. And some of them are really dumb.
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The only Streamer whose videos are constantly used on this forum as "evidence" is not good. What are you talking about?
And well, playing Killer just got easier and easier...
And:
"The problem is, BHVR won't balance the game around the potential that good survivors have, because most survivors simply are very bad. "
If the Survivors are very bad, why do Killers struggle that much? Because they are not as good as they think they are?
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Killer is the more difficult role because it’s the 1 in 1v4. If you make killer easy and stress free, and survivor the role that requires more time and constant attention, everyone will play killer and the game will die.
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In the past two years we had so many balance changes to make the game better. There are still issues but playing Killer is and propably always will be the more challenging and unforgiving role to play.
While I agree with most of your points I feel the need to point out that in the past DBD was so unbalanced that I have yet to encounter something that comes even close to how it was back then. You stating playing Killer just got easier and easier is of course true but it has the taste of downplaying the fact that Killer still is a lot more challenging than playing survivor by a large margin.
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I mean scotts put a bunch of videos on the problems with the game as well and otz said the early game slow is gonna be amazing. Scott admits in the smoll pp video a killers not getting 12 hookd in a game its impossible your gonna have to play "shady" somehow. Then survivors have builds like unbreakable ds "the invincibility bubble". Big surprise if i want to get kills im gonna have to slug or tunnel you eventually its a given. A killer can come on the forums and say "survivors are overpowered" but survivors can say "nah i get bad teammates". Well lets say said killer just faced a deathsquad with all 4 ds unbreakable and said survivor faced a ebony iri head huntress. Their both correct right? Thats why the game needs some major rebalancing thatll take a while. Making solos almost as good as swf,Giving all killers the same amount of power while making them still play different. And Fixing holding w and r1 every game. Nurse and spirit are the only 2 that can "reasonably" face a survivor deathsquad with optimum perks which tru3 isnt wrong thats why nurse and spirit are the only 2 used in tournament. A michael aint gonna cut it. But said good spirit and nurse will dominate solos because they lack the swf power.
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Funny because dead hard doesn't work 50% because latency/hitboxes
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Some perspective: You are the entire team. Your mistakes are supposed to be 4 times as impactful as a survivors.
Just food for thought.
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OK, this is actually a good perspective that I hadn't thought of
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So if most survivors are bad, what's the problem? Why should we balance the game in your favor due to a small minority of players who are better than you? I don't see your logic. This is not an e sport game, I don't understand why people get so butt hurt over it.
They need to just remove the ranking system all together so this nonsense whining stops and we can just enjoy the game for what it is.
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Because it's unfair to balance around casual players when there will always be a competitive side of DBD where survivors will destroy almost all killers. It doesn't matter that it's not a high proportion, because typically these veteran players will spend the most money on the game and play the most, meaning they should be high priority to balance around.
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I agree that there is an issue with this game where the majority of perks for rank 1-8 gameplay contribute NOTHING to the match for the killer. once a person plays against coordinated SWF teams. They can play through about ANYTHING and abuse the killer. Here is what my list looks like, for perks I have crossed out. and even then, good teams still counter them EASILY.
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How do you play around Im all ears?
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Because being a good survivor amounts to being able to extend a chase to at least 20 seconds and splitting up on gens. Ofc it's a bit more nuanced but a single survivor making a mistake is not much, it just amounts to less optimal gens and the only hard mistake you can do as survivor is go down near others against snowballers.
Have you ever played one of those nice games where you could never efficiently slug somebody while survivors weren't dicking around and booked it as soon as you came near them? Good luck on those, even if you end each chase in less than 20 seconds all 5 gens will pop. Picking up Survs and hooking them takes so much damn time, it's the reason why you HAVE to slug against competent teams that focus on gens. Ofc those are rare and most people want to have fun by engaging with the killer.
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I don't understand, why are perks like IF and STBFL crossed out but Iron Maiden and Mad Grit aren't?
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bad survivors can hold m1 and win the game, thats how survivor favored this game is
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Now do the same for survivor perks. I bet you'll find most of them are literal trash OR can be played around as well
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BOTH sides are guilty of this on some manner. Killers have unrealistic standards for survivors and dealing with some of the total BS that THEY can do.
Not saying that either side is right, but yeah. Until a good portion of the community takes a good look at itself, nothing's gonna change.
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"THey balance the game around rank 10-15 claudettes who hide in bushes"
Right..... that's why BBQ, Nurses Calling, Whispers, Stridor, Infectious Fright, Hex Undying (shows where you are just by being close to a totem), and all these things exist. To make the game for fair for those pesky 15 Claudettes who hide in bushes.... -_-
We got ourselves a regular old Sherlock over here, Mystery solved, case closed, check and mate.
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In general I agree with you. But in regards to the tru3 vid that was posted tgese werent small mistakes. He made a few very large mistakes that cost him that game.
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Yup most survivors are that bad and it's unfortunate that this allows for swf to be such an issue but just imagine how bad it would be for solo survivors if the Killers were buffed for swf.
They already struggle with killers as they are now.
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I'm not going to completely disagree that gens go too fast, the devs still has many ways to further improve the health of the game's balance, but I just don't see how it's so bad anymore.
I do agree that killer mistakes are more punishing than a survivor mistake, and that killer at a high level of play is more stressful and probably also harder than survivor, and at the highest level of play the survivors have a much greater chance of winning. But it's also not nearly as bad as many people make it out to be. It also makes sense that mistakes on the killers side are more punishing than survivors, since there is only one killer but four survivors.
Saying that the devs are still just balancing the game around rank 10-15s is just not fair. The game's balance has continuously been improving over the past months and years, and most noticeably were the changes to maps that favored killers and made survivor more challenging.
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Gentime is indeed a problem at the start of the game. You are right when you say that you can not force them off gens at the same time if they are smart and split up at the beginning of the round.
But why do killer still win more often then they loose their games? (assuming that 2K is a draw, 1K loose and 3K+ a win).
I think because of 2 reasons:
- The last 1-2 gens are very hard to complete if the killer plays well and the survivors are not a coordinated Team.
- Survivor are alturistic and feed to much.
I am not tired to say that the best option to solve at least the genspeed problem is to slower gens at the beginning of the match and make repairspeed faster at the end of the game. Its a simple but effective concept, but killer mains just hear the term "fast" and hate the idea instantly. 😓
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Mostly all the recent updates have been killer sided and you guys still complain lmao
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because survivors can make a lot of mistakes and still win killers make 1 little mistake and they done they lose.
how that fair?
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It's not supposed to be fair. Killer is the harder role and killer mains feel incredibly oppressed because of this. Remember that a single survivor only accounts to 1/4 of the team. If a killer makes a mistake, you're making a mistake for 100% of your team. Your mistakes SHOULD be more debilitating.
You see a lot of killers complain that gens go by far too quickly while ignoring the snowball potential of their power. I don't know how many games as killer where I had the first 3 gens pop early and I was still able to pull off the dub.
Remember that the game gets CONSIDERABLY easier once 1 survivor is dead. Survivors basically play unhook/heal simulator if you pinball between the last 3, resulting in your win.
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doesn't always work that way sometime the snowball lands on the killer head,some killer can't handle how the gen go which end with no snowball potential.
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I'm not trying to belittle one side but here is an example of a streamer/youtuber that helped me improve a lot but that also makes mistakes when playing killer.
Ussylis.
He is probably the best survivor main imo (the only survivor main that I watch so forgive me if I'm wrong)
He usually corrects what the killer is doing and saying what they are doing wrong.
Yet when he plays killer he makes worse mistakes than most players (forgive my english)
Most killers won't be able to play 100% amazing every time, bhvr doesn't need to balance against the best players but they need to cut some slack for killers, rarely I get a match where I can relax and just play normally but usually a single mistake will cost me meanwhile survivors have a few things up their sleeves to fix their mistakes.
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Its not supposed to be easy tbh get over it survivors barely have any good perks as it is.
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That's a load of crap. When they nerf killer, they make meta shifting changes. See nurse, ruin, Billy, spirit, oni, and legion.
When they nerf survivor, its tiny adjustments, like a 5 second increase in gen times with multiple survivors working on it. They changed maps, but added a ton of long walls and buffed vaults, plus barely made maps smaller.
They nerfed toolboxes, but buffed the crap out of sabo. What they do to killer would be the equivalent of adding 30 seconds to a gen, or removing a hook state and giving nothing to compensate.
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thats because survivors lose all the time lmao the only ones who have a chance are swf or maybe 1 survives so yeah and most perks are useless
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Lol. There's not a killer in this game that can beat a meta perk, gen rush squad. Not umbra, otz, tru3, zubat, monto, bronx, etc. I've seen them all get destroyed by it, nothing they can possibly do.
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Play pig. She hard counters doing their objective, aka "genrushing"
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I watch ussylis too and I 100 percent agree.
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Imagine thinking that Nurse, Billy, Spirit, and Oni are considerably weaker after their nerfs. Also, Oni got nerfed for a couple of weeks and then they gave him his flick back. These 4 killers still have the biggest snowball potential in the game despite the nerfs. I'll give you Legion tho.
They didn't add more long walls. That's a load of BS. You're just unlucky if you get a map with multiple long walls. Tiles are completely RNG. The vault buff is basically how vaults were before dedicated servers, so they brought vaults back to normal if anything.
You forgot to add the fact that they removed most semi-infinites which were the biggest time wasters in the game. I'll agree that maps are still the biggest determining factor of whether or not you win/lose a game outside of skill.
Also, Imagine thinking sabo is a problem. I've never lost to a sabo squad... like ever. If anything, you want players to sabo b/c they're not actively doing the objective and progressing the game.
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Boy, you're absolutely delusional.
Of course it's is a valid statement that most of survivors completely suck. I doubt that most killers will have problem dealing with bad survivors. However, the 1% that has at least 2 of IQ and play with friends to win in the most optimal way are unbeatable unless you're a god like nurse/spirit.
It's not that we are pissed off that we "get outplayed" from time to time. The problems is with the inconsistency that our games go. Normally, I can get a easily 4k on the red ranks which is due to survivors making absurd mistakes or not playing optimally but some games will just end with 4 escape because of extreme gen speed without having us have some impact on the game.
It would be something absolutely different if the case was: 3 games won with ease, 3 draw games or won with difficulties and 3 games losing with 4 escape. However, that's simply not the case. In reality 80% of my games I get an easy 4/3k and 20% I get completely destroyed. There's no "in between" and what is most scary is the fact that the survivors who all die in my matches loses because they make basic mistakes multiple times. I'm sure that if these survivor played the most efficient way, then it would be impossible to have good games on red ranks.
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Those killers are considerably weaker, they're still decent, but nothing like they were.
They absolutely strengthened tiles and added long walls, I NEVER saw them before the changes.
Try a sabo squad with three oak offerings and an ormond. Talk about a nightmare.
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Noooo my second chance perk isnt working nooooooooo
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"kilLEr SidEd" if that were the case this conversation wouldnt be happening . this game is so unbalanced it'll soon tip over.
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Imagine thinking a 7000 + full time streamer who plays this game professionally is bad.
Well if an "average" killer main who plays professionally has a lot of problems with killer side, imagine a man who actually has a family and a life OUTSIDE of DBD, or someone who wants to take a break from being a top tier killer.
And as far as the bad survivor thing goes, you can't actually measure the skill between a whole team and a single person. Both sides have different goals, one side chases while the other is chased, and there isn't really much of a tug o war system here, as much as it should be anyway. You could have more blood points than 3/4ths of survivor side and de-pip, while you can die and pip as survivor, there is no consistency between the two so that's a fallacy.
I don't understand what's so difficult for you guys to grasp. Even Scott Jund Begrudgingly admitted SWF teams can be overpowering, even if he sanctioned that with a BS unknowable of killers not facing Tourney SWF nearly as much as they think (said something stupid like only 1% of SWF play like that, well where is that magic BS logic in regards to the number of frame perfect killers?)
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I mean you make a mistake as survivor you die so...
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thats the whole proble, the survivors have too many second chances while killer has only noed that still has an easy counter
most of survivor second chances dont even have a proper requirement, but most of the killers perk have ######### requirement that makes no sense and renders the perks useless
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Well I'll admit I skimmed the majority of the comments on this but I didn't see anyone particularly mention the business aspect of why this works the way it does. Ideally the majority of the community plays survivor, this is required for the game to function without outrageous queue times for everyone involved. For every 1 person playing killer there needs to be 4 people who would rather play survivor at any given time in the day for a lobby to fill.
What this means for the developers is that they must design a game where 4/5 people will chose to play survivor over killer without making 5/5 people choose to play survivor. There is not a doubt in my mind that the developers purposefully grant a slight favor to survivors over killers and have actually done a surprisingly good job keeping this meticulous balance between favoring and keeping the game playable. Not only do they have to balance the actual game, but they have to balance peoples interpretations of the state of the game so that people prefer survivor to Killer.
As to the Ranking issues with certain perks many have pointed out, the majority of players rest within 5-12 rank range so they in turn have the game mostly balanced towards that subset of players causing minor issues in balance for players outside that range.
The point I'm attempting to make is there is a reason why killers will always be, and should always be, slightly underpowered mechanically, and why making a few mistakes as killer can cost a game whereas survivors can make far more mistakes and not be as heavily punished. Of course if you choose to look at this in the most cynical light possible, they are giving the majority of the community more leniency so they will spend more time and hopefully more money on this game. However you choose to look at it, this is a key aspect of the design of the game as a whole.
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Are you a console player? These 4 killers are the easiest to 4k with on PC. They are in no way JUST decent.
I've played games where I didn't have single long wall on multiple maps so I stand by conclusion that tiles are still completely RNG. I haven't heard that they increased or strengthened the amount of tiles by any person, dev, or player outside of you. If anything, Gas Heaven and Wretched Shop have turned into complete deadzones with barely any tiles/pallets.
I'd rather face a sabo squad on ormond, which I will probably win more than 80% of the time, vs an efficient team on gens that will make me lose more than 90% of the time.
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People don't like him so they say hes bad. It has nothing to do with actual skill, they just don't like him because he points out blatant obvious issues in the game, and it just so happens most of them are in favor of survivors over killer.
"Good Killer" translates to killer mains who play in a way I agree with. Killer mains who think SWF is okay and not an issue, and that 2 kill 2 escape is balanced.
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April 2020 developer update. Tile tweaks and window logic.
PC player. Yes, those killers are still decent, but the power was drastically changed, while the survivor meta was left untouched.
What happens when you get a sabo squad that's also fast on gens? Three on gens, one good looper, you catch the looper and his teammates are in the area, ready to save? I'm seriously starting to think the entirety of the top survivors live on Sao Paulo, Korea, and Russia. The rest of the world just deals with bad survivors and thinks everyone has them.
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Number one all those killers are fine except legion he needs a buff and a rework.
Survivor doesnt need any major nerds they have been getting nerfed since patch 2.0. Vaults were never "buffed" they were fixed. They never added long walls its rng based they never mentioned tweaking its spawn rate.
They made maps significantly smaller and yet you ask for more if they were any smaller the killer would be able to get across the map way to quickly and gen protector builds would become meta. The game would get boring and stale quickly.
Sabo is weak prepping hooks is still and will be better.
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the reason people do this is because they would make a mistake and im assuming its that one tru3 vid where he stayed at shack for three mins then said gen times were unfair
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Fine is a relative term. I'm not sure a top nurse can beat a top swf any more. I know a top billy or freddy can't.
Fixed and buffed are semantics, it's still a huge advantage for survivors. They mention in those notes that they cant list every change, but those maps that got tile tweaks are the ones that love to spawn long walls now.
They made a couple of maps smaller, crap like mothers dwelling, ormond, azarovs, and rotten fields are still massive.
God forbid a killer can cross a map in time to pressure a gen. What would the survivors do if they couldn't wrap up a match in 4 minutes? Oh, maybe use the insanely overpowered meta and 15 safe pallets per map to actually engage with the killer
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A top nurse can still beat top swf. A freddy can too actually. A too swf always had the advantage and billy while being good in the right hands falls short.
Even with these so called "buffed" vault I still take steps and get hit. Hit validation did nothing neither did fixing momentum. The maps they listed sure they spawned long walls but most maps only have like 1-2 jungle gyms at max only one I see have more than 4 is blood lodge.
The maps still can not be too small any experienced killer knows a gen protector build would become metanand too easy to use and win.
I never said I want the killer not to he able to pressure gens maps still shouldn't be extremely small.
You should put your killer agenda aside nobody wants 4 minute games.id say on average you get 10-11 pallet spawns per game. I actually had a 6 pallet game on azarovs resting place it was so bad a double pallet spawned.
The mwtq isnt "op" it discourages too ways to play. Even then you can still do both of them as they are 1 time uses.
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And I can swing with the survivor still in the vault animation and hit wall. If it takes half of a solo gen just to cross the map, the map is too big.
Do you want to know how many 4-6 minute games I've had this week alone? 4, and I only play about 4 games a day, so about 1/3rd of my games are gen rushers. So yeah, quite a few people want 4 minute games.
I broke 13 pallets on lerys and saw at least 3 more. There's usually 4 per corner on a coldwin map, usually jungle gym into cow tree, into shack, into jungle gym.
The meta is absolutely overpowered. Dead hard for distance saves 4 downs per match in average in my games. Ds and unbreakable deny 2 downs for each player. I need to start filming these matches for you people, see what you have to say with actual video evidence of how broken this game is.
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