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Anyone else feels freddy was overbuffed?
Comments
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I pretty much stopped playing Freddy after a few weeks. I mained him before the change. :( Still occasionally because I have a ton of puddin's on him. You'll be getting 4Ks in no time with him with basic knowledge of where to use snares at loops. Throw on corrupt, pop, enduring and spirit fury and maybe those stupid-ass slowdown add ons and never get below 3 kills ever again.
I will never get over losing the 100 second gate open time build.
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Freddy has no 'inbuilt gen slowdown' anymore. And his slowdown addons have been nerfed to the point of uselessness.
His 'inbuilt' counter to TR perks also works against him. He can't use perks that alter or remove his TR. If you find him stealthy because his lullaby is different from the normal TR radius sounds, I'll give you a hint: it gets louder when he gets closer.
The idea that he's a stealth killer in any fashion is laughable. So what if he's invisible from more than 32 meters away? And being 'intermittently visible' at more than 16 meters doesn't make him stealthier than Wraith. Or Ghostface. Or Pig.
Alarm clocks aren't the huge time-wasters you think they are, and are DEFINITELY not better than Piggy Hats. Running full map to get your clock every time you fall asleep is a silly strategy for silly people. You don't even need to use them. You can get another survivor to wake you up or just fail a skill check.
None of the killers in this game are P2W. Your entire argument is nuts because this just isn't a competitive game in the vein of symmetrical multiplayer games. Yes, people play competitively, but you can't compare a killer's skill to a survivor's skill. Also, every killer except the licensed ones can be unlocked for free (if you don't want to support the devs). The only reason the licensed killers need to be paid for is because of - you know - licensing.
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So a non answer
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I never said he wasn't easy.
Also, you counter his anti-loop by just throwing the pallet early like against Clown.
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If you read my posts I illustrated how we're realistically not in a 2k 2e balance currently against high rank "good" players.
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I would argue that the Clown has limited supplies he can use around that loop much like Huntress. Both get slowed and have to replenish their supply is they misplay. Freddy has no such issue and can lay 5 around the loop in seconds to shut it down if he wants to. Than if you try to run to another he can just do it again free of charge.
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"I would argue that the Clown has limited supplies he can use around that loop much like Huntress. Both get slowed and have to replenish their supply is they misplay."
That's a fair argument. However, my counter would be that Clown is currently weak and shouldn't actually be that bad. So we're comparing him to a killer that most acknowledge needs changes.
Also, Huntress isn't quite a fair comparison because yeah she has a slow down and reload, but that's because she can throw over the pallet/many walls and can hit you cross map.
"Freddy has no such issue and can lay 5 around the loop in seconds to shut it down if he wants to. Than if you try to run to another he can just do it again free of charge."
If we include chase time to the loop, laying the traps and then actually getting a hit, how long do you think it is gonna take?
I ask this because the survivor can still waste a good bit of his time before actually getting the hit. We're in a game balance where you need a pallet or a hit in roughly 15 seconds for each chase or you lose...
I'm implying that while he makes the chase quite short, it needs to be. It's the reason almost all the other M1 killers aren't that good, because they can't reliably get hits in remotely that time against good survivors. So compared to the other killers, yeah it's fast...but it needs to be. That's why he's one of the few viable killers against "good" survivors and most the others aren't.
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The Clown is the killer I want reworked the most despite my gripes with other killers. Poor guy. I did exploit the messed up mmr to play him again I'll admit.
I disagree on the chase time aspect. With most other killers you're spot on but not with Freddy. He often saves any time lost in a chase with a teleport to a gen afterwards and than some if using slowdown add ons or perks. I feel like he has the most time of any killer at the point in time. Most games a hook can gain you more time than you lose.
Laying traps is no significant time loss because there isnt any slowdown and the animation can be attack cancelled. And for the getting the hit part. Sure the first few chases might be somewhat long even with how incredibly fast you can trap a loop to force a pallet drop. But once those pallets are dropped or potentially broken chases will go shockingly fast as Freddy. And again, with certain add on combos he can gain significant time back from each hook.
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I'm not denying he's much more time efficient than the other killers.
I guess where we're disagreeing is if he's too efficient. For how fast games go against good survivors I think the speed he does chases is near mandatory.
Since you think he's too fast with his chases, what would you call a fair timed chase? Like what other killer would you use as a good example. Other than the few top tier killers the rest are all way too slow to compete imo.
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Yes 100%
Him being strong really isn't the problem.
It's how rediculously easy he is to play compared to how strong he is.
Even Spirit is waaaay harder to master than freddy,honestly.
His passive sleep timer is in my opinion just waaay to strong and does way too much for the freddy player,without him having to do anything for it.
The only "real" counterplay to freddy is to stay awake.
In order to do that you have to fail a skill check,find an awake teammate or go to a clock to wake yourself up.
This gives freddy free information (failed skill check) and huge slowdown because survivors are forced to stay awake every 60 seconds.
No killer has this much passive pressure like freddy does.
The only thing i want to see to make freddy more balanced is to make the sleep timer longer,survivors being able to go the every clock or my favourite change :
Make the sleep timer pause as soon as you entered a chase with freddy.
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I think people dont understand that killers SHOULD be hard to deal with THEY ARE KILLERS NOT LOOP TOYS!
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Oh i know lets make it so he can only hit people when they are asleep!
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That would be too much. Since it would extend loops into 3 hits rather than 2. He'd just be a slightly better version of his old self.
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I don't run timers when I play so I don't have answer for that. I've gravitated more towards Cannibal and Doctor recently. I think they're pretty fair and well balanced from a no players using perks perspective.
Chase times are also massively variable for indivdual killers if we bring perks into the occasion. Even against a good survivor the builds I use will often end the first chase/early game chases in less than 40-50 seconds. Anything worse than that is a bad chase for me and if there are still jungle gyms/pallet farms nearby I'll break off and find another survivor. It's very rare for a survivor to be enough of a loop god to be able to run me around for that long though. Once a fair few pallets are gone, say, mid game, the timer tanks down to about 30. Less if I'm playing an insta down. Although this is relying on their not being a strong vault loop nearby.
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I feel like this sums up my frustration with the killer better than any of my recent posts. It annoys me how much is just handed to him for free. His chase power is fine. His teleport is mostly OK. But together with all the free map pressure and slowdown that is just HANED to him doesn't sit right with me.
It's very hard to tell a good freddy from a bad freddy because he doesn't have to work for it and will often stumble into wins just through attrition.
Maybe base Freddy is perfectly okay balance wise. But no one plays that. They play pop/corrupt, maybe ruin and spirit fury or enduring. Than the true scumbags will pop on noed just for a giggle knowing that if they have 2 brain cells that gate isnt getting opened, let alone the totems being gone. A good start would be just removing the slowdown add ons ENTIRELY and then judging him from there. If he's still stupid oppressive at all ranks take another look.
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If the actually good killers were still good (Nurse, Billy), Freddy would be regarded as a mediocre killer... which is what he is and what everybody thought about him after he was reworked. Then Nurse and Billy got destroyed, and via process of elimination he became the """""""best""""""" killer in the game, so, of course, survivors want him destroyed.
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Here's a list of positives or things that benefit Freddy to me
- Snares
- Slowdown like Clown gas
- More similar to Hag's trap add-on "water-logged shoe" that slow survivors but better then her's
- No penalty for placing snares unlike Trapper or Hag (& and maybe even Demo portals) with similar trapping abilities
- Only 8 available, but placing more then 8 just replaces the very first one you put out; kinda infinite in a way
- Fake pallets
- no penalty placing them
- only 8 as well (if I remember correctly)
- Able to be placed anywhere a pallet normally can spawn unlike Doctor fake pallets which require pallets to be broken first and only can be placed on broken pallets spots (can be seen as a positive or negative depending on the person)
- Dream world
- Freddy has oblivious status effect when your in the Dream World which can be a positive or negative for specific perks
- Many slow down add-ons which can be paired with perks and stacks with them
- Waking up would only avoid the slowdown add-ons affecting you at that point (still be affected by the perks when awake not making a huge difference)
- Can be harder to see for some survivors (not good visibility)
- Survivors glow bright white; makes easier to spot them; harder to lose in a chase
- Awake survivors cant see Freddy further then 32m (freddy comes in and out of visibility within I think 20m-32m); wont know he's coming unless have spine chill
- Has an add-on that makes it 24m he cant be seen further then that
- Borrowed-time doesn't activate
- Survivors will always fall asleep every 60s (90s if survivor use clock) and can be affected by Freddy's many abilities
- Being in the Dream World is not ever really avoidable; Freddy hits put you in Dream World, neglecting anything you done to not be in it
- Clocks which can wake a survivor up is the farthest from them when first falling asleep, making it usually not worth it to wake up that way
- Add-on which makes waking up by a skill check not possible (only other way is by other survivors, clocks, or being hooked)
- Gen teleportation to any non-finished generator
- Many perks can be used with this to stop gen progression; regress it; or just find another survivor right away
- Survivors in the Dream World increase the rate at which Gen teleportation cools-down faster; (get to use it faster)
- Even if a you teleport to a bad location, survivors being in the Dream World makes the ability come back faster and their are add-ons that increase that effect
- Freddy also has an add-on that makes the obsession permanently stay in the Dream World
That seems like a lot of positives to me. I honestly don't think Freddy abilities has any downsides besides the cooldown on his gen teleport but like I already stated it can easy neglected due to his add-ons or just having survivors constantly fall asleep with no effort on your side.
Even if you take away the add-on advantages (which every Freddy uses anyway so no point in acting like a Freddy plays with no add-ons), Freddy still has a lot going for him. Too much if you ask me
2 - Snares
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Well let's take even your better 30 seconds as an example.
That's on 1 survivor so the other 3 are on gens. That one chase cost you 90 seconds on gens, so more than 1 gen. I'm gonna assume you meant for 1 hit as 30 seconds for 2 hits is near impossible as literally just the sprint burst from getting hit and you catching up in a straight line with zero looping at all would take more than 30 seconds.
1 hit for more than 1 gen. That is an absolutely terrible and near impossible number to win with. I'm not calling you bad, but that 30 seconds for a chase simply loses you the game against survivors that aren't wasting time and sit on gens spread out.
For reference it's 12 hooks to kill them all and you would have lost all 5 gens for 2 and 1/2 hooks.
Now yes, most games don't go that way because most survivors are potatoes. I'm talking about against good survivors that aren't wasting time and know how to loop. I don't want to lose because gens are too fast, I want to lose because I was outplayed.
Against good survivors you need to get a pallet or a hit in 15 seconds or you're losing. 15 seconds is insanely short especially if you picture me throwing you into it as a Clown or Trapper for example. Even just the time to walk across the map as an M1 killer can cost you an entire gen.
That's why shrinking the map and slowing the gens down would be a better solution so that we can keep fun/long chases and it still be viable. However that's not the balance we're currently in, so with the time killers are currently working with chases have to be so fast to have a chance of winning.
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Sweet! Never knew anyone who mained Freddy since he released! He was pretty rough... That’s passion!
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First of all the cooldown is not 60 seconds, it’s 45, and the cooldown can differ depending on how far away the teleportation is, secondly it can be reduced depending on how many survivors are asleep, for each sleeping survivor it’s a 15% speed buff to the power recovery, so if 4 survivors are sleeping thats an 18 second cooldown roughly estimated, so you either waste time running to the corner of the map to wake up or you don’t and he gets a super fast cooldown
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If you know you go to sleep if you get hit, it's a punish for not being careful. If he does lay down blood pools around an unsafe pallet spawn, there are always perks to counter that like dead-hard; they're not a guarantee but they are better than nothing- something overpowered shouldn't have a counter unlike Freddy. He's aids to play against but it all depends on your functionality and bending your playstyle and how good the Freddy is.
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But Freddy isn't an m1 killer. His power literally enables him to get hits, so he doesn't rely entirely on a 115 m1 chase to get a down.
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He’s simply more accessible. Strong, but accessible. In some very small ways he was nerfed in some places. I really LOVED his old ways of stalling the game, and constantly keeping track of survivors to know who is a priority and who isn’t.
I get wrecked by good teams still sometimes with new Freddy.
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An m1 killers power is supplemental to them getting hits. A non m1 killers power is literally getting them the hits.
Freddy pools make his m1 mind games easier (aka supplemental). They are not literally giving him damage states and he still has to play the loop as a normal killer.
Freddy is an M1 killer.
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He has a very good kit, like all killers should have. But he is really boring to play, because he does not need much skill to be good and you ain't feel rewarded in winning after a certain amount of games (at least for me).
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The changes to the game since then aren't really relevant. The fact is, Freddy had the highest kill rate of all killers as of November 2019. Even if the game has changed such that survivors are now destroying killers, the strength of the individual killers in the roster shouldn't have changed much relative to each other (aside from the small number who were actually buffed/nerfed). If Freddy had (and plausibly still has) a higher kill rate than Spirit, that's a pretty good sign that he was over-buffed. This holds whether the overall kill rate is now 50% or if it's still ~65%. The stronger killers should be nerfed to make them more average, the weaker killers should be buffed to make them more average, and then game balance should be adjusted accordingly. The important thing is making it so that all killers are viable and none are overpowered.
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A killer needing to be nerfed because he's higher than others is flawed logic.
If we're aiming for a 2k2e and Freddy's at 2k2e while the others are at 1k3e that doesn't mean it's time to nerf Freddy, it means it's time to catch the others up. Your assumption presumes Freddy's higher rate is above the game balance that they are aiming for and that is entirely based on old and heavily unreliable statistics as we've already gone thoroughly over in this thread prior.
"The stronger killers should be nerfed to make them more average"
This is under the assumption that the "average" is in a good spot currently, of which I do not believe they are.
"The important thing is making it so that all killers are viable and none are overpowered."
I agree with this statement. Where we disagree is how balanced killers currently are.
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By that definition, so is Hag, Nurse and Deathslinger. And, in fact, Legion is NOT an m1 killer.
Generally speaking, when the majority of the community says "m1 killer" they mean a killer that relies on a basic chase, aka 115 movement, nothing but basic attacks, no power to help. Pooling Freddy with them breaks the reason to have the term m1 killer,because he... Well, he doesn't rely on a basic m1 chase in any sense, unless the Freddy in question is somehow bad at the killer. He doesn't even play loops with any similarity.
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Micro sleep should get removed, and he should be penalized for placing snares.
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You're taking the term too literally. Freddy loops as any basic killer would, while Hag, Nurse, Deathslinger do not. Legion also still has to loop as a normal killer after the first hit, so yes, he is an m1 killer.
Just because Freddy's normal loops end faster doesn't make them not normal loops. This is why Clown is an M1 killer as well. He shortens the loops but still has to play it normally.
Freddy completely relies on a basic m1 chase, whether he's good or bad. He plays the loops just like every other basic killer does. Throwing a couple pools down before you loop doesn't mean he's playing it differently.
The vast majority of the community agrees that Freddy is an M1 killer, that isn't really a debated topic.
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Those stats were before both Ruin got changed and his rope add-ons were nerfed. Rework Freddy with double ropes, ruin, and pop basically meant survivors couldn't get gens done which help inflate his kill rate. His overall kill rate has likely gone done since then.
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Freddy without snares is just a gen based wraith.
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It makes no sense to buff the other 19 killers until their kill rates match Freddy then adjust overall game balance to weaken all killers, even if you feel the game is survivor sided. It makes much more sense to adjust killers that are abnormally strong or abnormally weak to bring them back to the middle. For better of for worse, that's been what Behaviour has tried to do. Over the past two years or so they buffed Freddy, Bubba, Wraith, Doctor, and Clown, who were some of the weakest killers in the game, and they nerfed Billy, Spirit, and Nurse, who were some of the strongest killers in the game. There's a lot of work involved with reworking killers and even minor buffs and nerfs still do need to be tested, so it makes sense to focus on the outliers and address those.
The following are the only arguments I've heard to say that the game is survivor sided:
- "[Insert streamer here] Lost badly to a SWF. [Insert streamer here] has a lot of playtime and they're good at the game. Therefore survivors are OP."
- "Red rank survivors keep bullying me. Therefore survivors are OP."
- "Survivors overperform in the DBD tournaments I've watched / participated in. Therefore survivors are OP."
- "Everyone on the forums / my favorite content creator says that survivors are OP. Therefore survivors are OP."
All of these points are anecdotal, and I would much rather trust the most recent game-wide statistics we have than come to any conclusions based on anecdotes. Also, tournaments often have very particular rules that mean they no longer represent the actual game well. For example, certain perks/items/add-ons/offerings will be banned, certain killers will be banned, certain viable killer play styles like slugging or camping will be banned, etc.
I have listed out the changes since November 2019 in many posts in the past and I don't think it's at all likely they would cause the overall kill rate to drop by more than 15%, but who's to say. It is possible that stats will drop tomorrow and we'll see that the game now favors survivors. Until that happens, though, I have not seen any evidence to support that.
My personal opinion is that survivors in a four-man SWF has a high enough ceiling to win most matches on most maps. I also believe that survivors in the real world are often not playing in a four-man SWF, and even those that are in four-man squads usually aren't playing optimally enough to get anywhere near that ceiling.
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Actually, I see very few people outside of the Tru3munity call Freddy an m1 killer, because he doesn't actually loop like an m1 killer. He snares you for free hits or you drop every pallet on the map. No mindgames needed.
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what?
have you play freddy before?
even trapper we call him m1 killer.
and all the thing snare do is slow you down In a small area.
which is weaker than clown
and we call clown a m1 killer
and we dont think clown is no mind game needed right ?
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He wasn't buffed, he was entirely re worked, removing a slew of stuff from the game entirely in the process. Removing his aura reading and invisible dream state aspects without buffing his sight clarity to counter this nerf.
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Those stats were also from a time were toolboxes were way better, maps were much bigger, stronger loops were in the game, genspeed was faster and people had no idea that corrupt is actually better then Ruin. We can assume that his Killrate might be higher since he got more buffed then nerfed overall.
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is that his kill rate at the highest level though because that’s the only stat that should matter.
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He's way overtuned. Not overpowered, but he gets way too much ######### for free that other killers don't. The only killer in the game with passive slowdown and a teleport AND a chase power on top of also being mind-numbingly dull and easy to use with no learning curve or fun to him? A Reddit killer main's wet dream, truly the golden standard for M1 killers and definitely not far too oppressive and powerful for most of the survivor playerbase's skill level considering how easy he is to pick up and play at all ranks. Definitely not.
Also weren't BHVR against the whole "getting pressure for free" thing which was the reason for the ruin nerf, but they reworked Freddy to do just that a few months before?
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Every single TR perk wouldn't even be good on Freddy anyway so it's still not a good reason to give him a debuff to survivors for simply existing. Infectious isn't good on M1 killers, and the other TR perks are garbage, except maybe Monitor. Wouldn't be hard for BHVR to keep the lullaby, but remove the oblivious effect. That way he can still be sort of stealthy but also wouldn't get a free counter to BT (Or a survivor wouldn't have literal permanent wallhacks on him with object, something a lot of people forgot is a thing. You literally cannot mindgame a survivor if they're asleep and have object, a huge negative as a result of him being so bloated and overtuned.)
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His kill rate as of November 2019 was 75-80% in red ranks. There are many red rank players I wouldn't consider to be "highest level", but still, it's the best we can do. His kill rate at red rank was 5-10% higher than his kill rate at all ranks too, so the best players in the game aren't making a dent in his kill stats. (link)
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Most definitely overbuffed.
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He's part of the reason there should not be a DC penalty.
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Well, here's the thing: If every killer in the game had the mobility that Freddy has, they'd all be much closer to him. Even making all of the maps smaller and relatively the same size so that less mobile killers become stronger and high mobility killers can't really take a huge advantage in having it. Closing maps into smaller sizes also allows for less strength from literally holding Shift W and creating more mind game pallets that lets you use skill to out play your opponent.
For example, Clown is like Freddy, except he's worse because he doesn't have map pressure. Why would you play Clown, when you can play Freddy? You might say because a Clown can close the distance in a chase pre-pallet, but if the survivor lets you do that, then they're not a good survivor. Even Demo. Like, killers like Huntress/Deathslinger at least get punished due to a slow movement speed, but a killer like Freddy has map pressure and is really strong at loops, too, and he's 115%.
I mean I can sit here and talk about this for an hour but to sum it up, it isn't Freddy that's the problem. The fact Wraith doesn't by default move faster when cloaked and needs addons, which not only affect is mobility but also his ability to block pallets/windows? The fact Trapper doesn't even have a brown bag by default? The fact Iri heads exist? Some things when you start to talk about the balance of this game when you begin asking questions really blow your mind.
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Literally its pre throw pallets and actively stay awake. Freddy is a boring killer to verse.
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i think he could do with some addon changes specifically the slowdown ones, no killer should have passive slowdown
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I kinda agree. he has base movement speed and he can tp across map. with a power that slows people down. Just a killer that has too much in his kit.
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Gonna disagree with you there. I think he should have the fake pallets and the teleporting since they both fit his character really well. Not too sure about the puddles but i don't think he should've gotten the puddles as well but i feel they did it to give a risk for staying asleep to force people to use the clock to wake up. I think if they wanted to enforce that just make it like it is with the plague where as the only way to heal after being afflicted is to cleanse and let that be the case with freddy but also removing hits putting people asleep or give a slightly longer time to not fall asleep
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The killer you're creating would barely even make B tier. That's extremely weak.
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I mean honestly he still feels like any other basic attack killer he only gets strong with players being asleep but it’s very easy to remove the status condition
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