DS is fine as long as

As a 50/50 survivor killer main, I can wholeheartedly say that DS is not a problem, it is an annoyance, killers dribble the obsession to the hook, they swing their weapon and camera around to make them miss it. I see DS as the same as dead hard, it just can potentially avoid an attack but you will go down again straight after.

And this goes for the same as perks that survivors complain about, ruin is not hard to deal with, just find the hex or power through the gen, hitting great skill checks becomes easy after a while

@AnotherRandy said:

@xxaggieboyxx said:
I think just make it to where only one uses it. Obsession only perk. If someone has it and not obsession sucks for them. Then whey would just have another perk. This perk should be more high risk than just "oh you don't get to use it here have a different perk" but like @Orion said. What about when my ruin is cleansed before I can even get to it? Not a bad ds nerf idea but I wouldn't say it is a good one either 

This will just hurt solo survivors, swfs will just at coordinate who will take the DS and everyone else won't waste it. Think a minute before u type man

lol "think before you type" maybe you should think too because not only would this perk still be crutch for the survivor that uses it. it would still reward the people that dont get to use it. there is this thing called chat so it wouldnt always hurt solo survivors. and like i said this perk shouldnt be all fine and dandy completely safe to use with absolutely no drawbacks. do you know how many killer perks have built in drawbacks?? the strongest ones all have something survivors can do to stop it or counter it. the only thing that can be done with ds is enduring and droping them off a ledge. but if they have balanced landing they get away scott free.

so yeah i have thought.

PS: there was no reason to be a dick

Thetruth said:

@mcNuggets said:

@Thetruth said:

@mcNuggets said:
DS is not fine at all.
You can loop for minutes and then [BAD WORD] the killer over because you have a perk.

DS is fine if your getting owned like that you should give up and find a new target

Why should a KILLER find a new target, because a survivor owns a perk?

Pathetic arguments, you are just some salty survivor main complaining about balancing the game to be playable as killer player because your ego wouln't accept that your bad.

Sounds like you get owned daily in this game. get better. and lol at survivor main. Only reason I even played was cause it was given free. btw DS is fine L2P

AnotherRandy said:

@xxaggieboyxx said:

@AnotherRandy said:

@xxaggieboyxx said:
I think just make it to where only one uses it. Obsession only perk. If someone has it and not obsession sucks for them. Then whey would just have another perk. This perk should be more high risk than just "oh you don't get to use it here have a different perk" but like @Orion said. What about when my ruin is cleansed before I can even get to it? Not a bad ds nerf idea but I wouldn't say it is a good one either 

This will just hurt solo survivors, swfs will just at coordinate who will take the DS and everyone else won't waste it. Think a minute before u type man

lol "think before you type" maybe you should think too because not only would this perk still be crutch for the survivor that uses it. it would still reward the people that dont get to use it. there is this thing called chat so it wouldnt always hurt solo survivors. and like i said this perk shouldnt be all fine and dandy completely safe to use with absolutely no drawbacks. do you know how many killer perks have built in drawbacks?? the strongest ones all have something survivors can do to stop it or counter it. the only thing that can be done with ds is enduring and droping them off a ledge. but if they have balanced landing they get away scott free.

so yeah i have thought.

PS: there was no reason to be a dick

Mate, r u mental or deluded or something? Pls try to use ur human brain and logic, I break that down one last time:

The suggestion of "who took ds but isn't obsession loses a whole perk slot" will just hurt solos more again. Because premades will clarify who going to be the one taking ds. SWF will be 100% run all 4 perk slots (16+ aura reading for free).
On the other side solos who can't communicate and clarify who will take ds will end in someone gas only 3 perks for the whole match. SWFs will never ever have this situation of someone with 3 perks. I swear, if someone can't take this logic Im done with my faith in humanity. Such a simple logic but people don't get it. I'm superior to the majority in this forum or are just some kids under 16yo writing? Ffs...

@AnotherRandy said:

@xxaggieboyxx said:

@AnotherRandy said:

@xxaggieboyxx said:
I think just make it to where only one uses it. Obsession only perk. If someone has it and not obsession sucks for them. Then whey would just have another perk. This perk should be more high risk than just "oh you don't get to use it here have a different perk" but like @Orion said. What about when my ruin is cleansed before I can even get to it? Not a bad ds nerf idea but I wouldn't say it is a good one either 

This will just hurt solo survivors, swfs will just at coordinate who will take the DS and everyone else won't waste it. Think a minute before u type man

lol "think before you type" maybe you should think too because not only would this perk still be crutch for the survivor that uses it. it would still reward the people that dont get to use it. there is this thing called chat so it wouldnt always hurt solo survivors. and like i said this perk shouldnt be all fine and dandy completely safe to use with absolutely no drawbacks. do you know how many killer perks have built in drawbacks?? the strongest ones all have something survivors can do to stop it or counter it. the only thing that can be done with ds is enduring and droping them off a ledge. but if they have balanced landing they get away scott free.

so yeah i have thought.

PS: there was no reason to be a dick

Mate, r u mental or deluded or something? Pls try to use ur human brain and logic, I break that down one last time:

The suggestion of "who took ds but isn't obsession loses a whole perk slot" will just hurt solos more again. Because premades will clarify who going to be the one taking ds. SWF will be 100% run all 4 perk slots (16+ aura reading for free).
On the other side solos who can't communicate and clarify who will take ds will end in someone gas only 3 perks for the whole match. SWFs will never ever have this situation of someone with 3 perks. I swear, if someone can't take this logic Im done with my faith in humanity. Such a simple logic but people don't get it. I'm superior to the majority in this forum or are just some kids under 16yo writing? Ffs...

Wait? you expected to get logic from the DbD community? I think you are the one who is truly mental here.

@mcNuggets said:

@ForsakenLemon said:
As a 50/50 survivor killer main, I can wholeheartedly say that DS is not a problem, it is an annoyance, killers dribble the obsession to the hook, they swing their weapon and camera around to make them miss it. I see DS as the same as dead hard, it just can potentially avoid an attack but you will go down again straight after.

And this goes for the same as perks that survivors complain about, ruin is not hard to deal with, just find the hex or power through the gen, hitting great skill checks becomes easy after a while

Play lower ranks.
DS is a huge problem.
If you downed a player successfully, they shouldn't be able to loop you again after stunning you.
It's important in the early game for the killer to hook survivors in order to win, this is completely taken away by DS.

Well, I did play in low ranks, and guess what, it wasnt a problem, so I got out of low ranks, baby killers always got something to complain about

@Blood_Coil_Viper said:
ForsakenLemon said:

@mcNuggets said:

 @ForsakenLemon said:

As a 50/50 survivor killer main, I can wholeheartedly say that DS is not a problem, it is an annoyance, killers dribble the obsession to the hook, they swing their weapon and camera around to make them miss it. I see DS as the same as dead hard, it just can potentially avoid an attack but you will go down again straight after.

And this goes for the same as perks that survivors complain about, ruin is not hard to deal with, just find the hex or power through the gen, hitting great skill checks becomes easy after a while

Play lower ranks.

DS is a huge problem.

If you downed a player successfully, they shouldn't be able to loop you again after stunning you.

It's important in the early game for the killer to hook survivors in order to win, this is completely taken away by DS.

Well, I did play in low ranks, and guess what, it wasnt a problem, so I got out of low ranks, baby killers always got something to complain about

Least killers don't spam threads about nerfing camping, tunnelling, BBQ, Hillbilly, Nurse, NOED, Doctor, etc.. Yeah your point is very poor here.. the most I see killers complain about is DS. Not much else. 

Ily.

Thetruth said:

@Blood_Coil_Viper said:
Thetruth said:

@mcNuggets said:

@Thetruth said:

@mcNuggets said:

DS is not fine at all.

You can loop for minutes and then [BAD WORD] the killer over because you have a perk.

DS is fine if your getting owned like that you should give up and find a new target

Why should a KILLER find a new target, because a survivor owns a perk?

Pathetic arguments, you are just some salty survivor main complaining about balancing the game to be playable as killer player because your ego wouln't accept that your bad.

Sounds like you get owned daily in this game. get better. and lol at survivor main. Only reason I even played was cause it was given free. btw DS is fine L2P

New player says DS is fine lol! Getting "owned" by Decisive is nothing the killer can help you know.. maybe try playing killer at high rank before making silly assumptions? Maybe as you said.. Learn to play? 

Nah DS is fine. It can be countered. People need to gitgud

@Blood_Coil_Viper said:
Thetruth said:

@Blood_Coil_Viper said:

Thetruth said:

@Blood_Coil_Viper said:

Thetruth said:

@mcNuggets said: @Thetruth said: @mcNuggets said: DS is not fine at all. You can loop for minutes and then [BAD WORD] the killer over because you have a perk. DS is fine if your getting owned like that you should give up and find a new target

Why should a KILLER find a new target, because a survivor owns a perk?

Pathetic arguments, you are just some salty survivor main complaining about balancing the game to be playable as killer player because your ego wouln't accept that your bad. Sounds like you get owned daily in this game. get better. and lol at survivor main. Only reason I even played was cause it was given free. btw DS is fine L2P

New player says DS is fine lol! Getting "owned" by Decisive is nothing the killer can help you know.. maybe try playing killer at high rank before making silly assumptions? Maybe as you said.. Learn to play? 



Nah DS is fine. It can be countered. People need to gitgud

You just said NOED is for trash killers in another thread.. your survivor bias is showing kid.. NOED can be countered.. Decisive can't be. Especially at the highest level of play. Which you've clearly never got to. 

Yea i have. its still fine

You haven't unless you've been against full SWF groups at rank 1 using the best items they can.. those matches are why Decisive is not ok.. if only 1 person could run it then it's fine but a whole team with it is not. 

It would still suck, because as killer you aere robbed a hook you earned.
But I agree it would be better.

I would just change Decisive to 45% wiggle bar (obsession) and to 65% (non obsession) and reduce the stun time significantly.

@SenzuDuck said:

@Tsulan said:
Removing that survivor is the problem. Ever tried a Dying Light build? By the time the obsession is dead, 3-4 gens are done. Again huge risk, little reward for the killer. 

Killing survivors is relatively easy, if you're going to run Dying Light, run a mori a long side it so you can feel like a strong and powerful killer.

So killer has to use a offering to use a perk to slow down the game pace by 25%...
Do i really have to add something to that logic?

Each survivor has 4 unremovable perks. Totalling at 16 perks vs 4 removable killer perks. Why is the minority the weaker side? Why can the majority take away perks from the minority?

>
and? It's almost like you guys argue on the forums lacking the knowledge YOU CAN KILL A SURVIVOR. With the amount of things you guys complain about you act as if it's impossible to kill a single person in the game.
2/3 kills is easy.

You can kill a survivor? mind blown

Devour Hope: finally a real incentive for the killer to leave the hook. But naaa, that's a horrible thing. Putting survivors under pressure instead of the killer. 

Yea, "finally". Not like it's been in the game for a real long ass time or something. I've seen killers with BBQ that stand around the hook, it doesn't matter how many incentives you give the killer to leave the hook some just wont, regardless. But again, I'm not complaining about camping because they can play how they want, you can continue to act like I have an issue with camping though.

Killer with BBQ standing around could be simply... you know, survivors hiding behind a gen or inside the terror radius. When the killer doesn´t see anyone, he has to assume that the survivors are hook camping.
So for the love of god, stop camping your fellow survivors for some points or We gonna farm forever stacks.

NOED: It only halves the required hits to down a survivor. Suddenly I fear the killer and it plays like a horror game. Terrible thing... can't have that.

Yea, it only speeds you up, insta downs survivors when they're likely on their last hooks, damn, they should just make it down survivors when the killer looks at him, how exactly do you want noed to be changed? I remember when you argued that NOED shouldn't be counterable because if a survivor has made it that far in the game they've already got "loads" of points, jesus christ, LOL.

So... killer, killing at the end of the match = bad. Killer killing at the beginning of the match = bad.
When would be a good moment to kill again? You just said, that killers should use moris and kill asap.
I honestly think that being killed after 4 or 5 gens have been done, isn´t really a big issue. I usually got my points and pip at that stage of the game.

Ruin: it doesn't reveal your position, it doesn't hurt you it only increases the gen repair time. Something we really need in times of 3 minute matches. 

Don't think I've ever had a 3 minute match personally, maybe... JUST MAYBE, you're not very good at playing killer and applying pressure or winning chases, therefore it doesn't matter how strong ruin is, you'll still have bad matches. Again, good luck new survivors who run against ruin at rank 20, RIP them.

Asuming that new players would be only matched with new players (you know, the whole purpose of the noob ranks). They would hardly get a fully stacked Ruin.
Unless you expect 4x DS, 4x SC, 4x SB, 2x BT and 2x Unbreakable with 4x flashlights a normal noob rank swf group. I repeat: NOOBS ONLY

Haunted Grounds is more like a patchwork. An attempt to solve the totem problem. My experience so far with it: killer gets 1 down at max from it. Hardly worth a perk slot.

I usually run this on the spirit alongside Devour Hope, works really well - maybe you should try it.

Lit totems against the Spirit. I think every survivor who passed rank 10 has stopped doing those totems...
But hey, i could be wrong. I mean breaking a lit (Haunted Grounds) totem while someone injured is being chased, isn´t exactly the most risky thing on the world.

New players: I can't repeat it often enough. We need more things for new players. A separate queue, a barrier that asks people if they are ready to be thrown into the shark tank, another question after 5 or 10 matches, that asks the new players if they want to stay on the normal queue or if they want to go back to noob queue.

Yea because the block off from rank 15+ is working so well, most players will just opt to play normally because they can't find lobbies, good job, fantastic solution.

That is a bug. Devs said it´s a bug. Hell, even new players suddenly find matches in 1-5 minutes on rank 20 after reinstalling the game.

And we need a casual mode. 

The whole game is casual lmfao, tournaments are played with SWF teams, quit your whining.

I mean a real casual mode. Something with 5 hook stages, 12 gens, 3 hits to down a survivor. Something to enjoy a relaxing match after work.

Btw. F13 allowed survivors to kill the killer. Didn't really turn out into a success, did it.

My comment was made sarcastically as you think everything a survivor can do a killer should be able too also, I just proved why the whole "removing perks" was a stupid suggestion, get better at the game.

Oh i think i´m doing fine at my games. No worries.

DS needs a change or a limit. 4x DS is usually a lost game for the killer. Doesn't matter how he plays. 

Weren't you talking about DS the other day and said it should have unlimited uses but you physically stun the killer while being chased, it just has a charge time? LOOOOOL.

So i can´t make a suggestion for a hated perk, that would make it less hated without making it useless?
What was YOUR suggestion again?

and I've said this numerous times, to you aswell - I DONT LIKE DS, i know it should be chaged.

All in all, this seems like a "I can't do anything as killer, hold my hand pls".

Oh i can´t really complain about MY games. But i would say i´m experienced enough to see the flaws in this game. You don´t seem to see them. Which is a shame, otherwise we could have a productive discussion.

@Tsulan said:

On this Episode of: Tsulan is just bad at the game.

So killer has to use a offering to use a perk to slow down the game pace by 25%...
Do i really have to add something to that logic?

You lack logic at all, it takes time to kill survivors, the game would be pointless if it didn't. So if you want dying light to work relatively quickly, use a mori, that would be logical.
"but muh dying light survivor isnt instantly ded er murh gurd perk usless"

You can kill a survivor? mind blown

Obviously dismissing my reply because it actually makes sense, you can kill survivors, no wonder you can't "counter" them... OH WAIT, after they're hooked their perks aren't doing much. You are literally the counter, that big weapon you can use with M1, try using it.

Killer with BBQ standing around could be simply... you know, survivors hiding behind a gen or inside the terror radius. When the killer doesn´t see anyone, he has to assume that the survivors are hook camping.
So for the love of god, stop camping your fellow survivors for some points or We gonna farm forever stacks.

Killers: You can counter BBQ by hiding behind a gen (doesn't work btw) or you can run towards the killer... OH WAIT, they'll just use that as an excuse for camping.
So no, it's not camping, it's countering BBQ, but it's not countering BBQ it's hook camping? You mentioned something at the start of this about logic, you clearly lack it sweetheart.

So... killer, killing at the end of the match = bad. Killer killing at the beginning of the match = bad.
When would be a good moment to kill again? You just said, that killers should use moris and kill asap.
I honestly think that being killed after 4 or 5 gens have been done, isn´t really a big issue. I usually got my points and pip at that stage of the game.

Again, have never once complained about "when" a killer kills, literally told you at the start you could try running a mori to make dying light more viable, literally telling you to kill at the start but apparently I'm complaining about it, carry on with your stupid "logic".
Yep, survivors survived until the end so obviously the killer should just be able to uncounterably kill them all despite them completing their objective, something something logic.

Asuming that new players would be only matched with new players (you know, the whole purpose of the noob ranks). They would hardly get a fully stacked Ruin.

Except you have killers that derank on purpose, and surviving is so easy they don't stay in those "noob" ranks for too long, so regardless you can still end up against a full tier of ruin at any rank, but obviously you only care about killers so new survivors having a bad time doesn't matter.

Unless you expect 4x DS, 4x SC, 4x SB, 2x BT and 2x Unbreakable with 4x flashlights a normal noob rank swf group. I repeat: NOOBS ONLY

What are you smoking? Both sides derank (I can understand that). I don't condone deranking, so again, for your benefit lets pretend I support deranking so your "logic" makes sense.

Lit totems against the Spirit. I think every survivor who passed rank 10 has stopped doing those totems...

Wow, maybe thats why I suggested using Devour hope with it, if they aren't breaking totems then they aren't breaking devour hope. good job on proving this tactic works. 10/10

But hey, i could be wrong. I mean breaking a lit (Haunted Grounds) totem while someone injured is being chased, isn´t exactly the most risky thing on the world.

Again, only looking at it from one side, lets assume haunted grounds is only ever broken when the killer is chasing an injured survivor, LOL. again, more bias, it could only possibly happen when it doesn't count.

That is a bug. Devs said it´s a bug. Hell, even new players suddenly find matches in 1-5 minutes on rank 20 after reinstalling the game.

I'd like a source on this one, doesn't really make my answer any different - people will just opt out because why play against restrictions.

I mean a real casual mode. Something with 5 hook stages, 12 gens, 3 hits to down a survivor. Something to enjoy a relaxing match after work.

Yea, sounds super relaxing, casual is usually used to "practice" competitive stuff, making it completely different is not casual at all, lol.

Oh i think i´m doing fine at my games. No worries.

Sure, that's why you need NOED to be uncounterable, because you do just "fine" lol.

So i can´t make a suggestion for a hated perk, that would make it less hated without making it useless?

You think being able to stun the killer whenever they want would make it less hated? Shows how little you know really.

What was YOUR suggestion again?

I don't make stupid suggestions, so when I have one I truly think would be fair on both sides I'll make one.

Oh i can´t really complain about MY games. But i would say i´m experienced enough to see the flaws in this game. You don´t seem to see them. Which is a shame, otherwise we could have a productive discussion.

There's not really much that can't be played around, I'll continue to reach rank one on both sides despite what they change because I'm not a pleb that thinks only 4Ks count as wins and I don't care if I die as survivor because I'm just having fun.

@SenzuDuck said:

@Tsulan said:

On this Episode of: Tsulan is just bad at the game.

So killer has to use a offering to use a perk to slow down the game pace by 25%...
Do i really have to add something to that logic?

You lack logic at all, it takes time to kill survivors, the game would be pointless if it didn't. So if you want dying light to work relatively quickly, use a mori, that would be logical.
"but muh dying light survivor isnt instantly ded er murh gurd perk usless"

You can kill a survivor? mind blown

Obviously dismissing my reply because it actually makes sense, you can kill survivors, no wonder you can't "counter" them... OH WAIT, after they're hooked their perks aren't doing much. You are literally the counter, that big weapon you can use with M1, try using it.

Killer with BBQ standing around could be simply... you know, survivors hiding behind a gen or inside the terror radius. When the killer doesn´t see anyone, he has to assume that the survivors are hook camping.
So for the love of god, stop camping your fellow survivors for some points or We gonna farm forever stacks.

Killers: You can counter BBQ by hiding behind a gen (doesn't work btw) or you can run towards the killer... OH WAIT, they'll just use that as an excuse for camping.
So no, it's not camping, it's countering BBQ, but it's not countering BBQ it's hook camping? You mentioned something at the start of this about logic, you clearly lack it sweetheart.

So... killer, killing at the end of the match = bad. Killer killing at the beginning of the match = bad.
When would be a good moment to kill again? You just said, that killers should use moris and kill asap.
I honestly think that being killed after 4 or 5 gens have been done, isn´t really a big issue. I usually got my points and pip at that stage of the game.

Again, have never once complained about "when" a killer kills, literally told you at the start you could try running a mori to make dying light more viable, literally telling you to kill at the start but apparently I'm complaining about it, carry on with your stupid "logic".
Yep, survivors survived until the end so obviously the killer should just be able to uncounterably kill them all despite them completing their objective, something something logic.

Asuming that new players would be only matched with new players (you know, the whole purpose of the noob ranks). They would hardly get a fully stacked Ruin.

Except you have killers that derank on purpose, and surviving is so easy they don't stay in those "noob" ranks for too long, so regardless you can still end up against a full tier of ruin at any rank, but obviously you only care about killers so new survivors having a bad time doesn't matter.

Unless you expect 4x DS, 4x SC, 4x SB, 2x BT and 2x Unbreakable with 4x flashlights a normal noob rank swf group. I repeat: NOOBS ONLY

What are you smoking? Both sides derank (I can understand that). I don't condone deranking, so again, for your benefit lets pretend I support deranking so your "logic" makes sense.

Lit totems against the Spirit. I think every survivor who passed rank 10 has stopped doing those totems...

Wow, maybe thats why I suggested using Devour hope with it, if they aren't breaking totems then they aren't breaking devour hope. good job on proving this tactic works. 10/10

But hey, i could be wrong. I mean breaking a lit (Haunted Grounds) totem while someone injured is being chased, isn´t exactly the most risky thing on the world.

Again, only looking at it from one side, lets assume haunted grounds is only ever broken when the killer is chasing an injured survivor, LOL. again, more bias, it could only possibly happen when it doesn't count.

That is a bug. Devs said it´s a bug. Hell, even new players suddenly find matches in 1-5 minutes on rank 20 after reinstalling the game.

I'd like a source on this one, doesn't really make my answer any different - people will just opt out because why play against restrictions.

I mean a real casual mode. Something with 5 hook stages, 12 gens, 3 hits to down a survivor. Something to enjoy a relaxing match after work.

Yea, sounds super relaxing, casual is usually used to "practice" competitive stuff, making it completely different is not casual at all, lol.

Oh i think i´m doing fine at my games. No worries.

Sure, that's why you need NOED to be uncounterable, because you do just "fine" lol.

So i can´t make a suggestion for a hated perk, that would make it less hated without making it useless?

You think being able to stun the killer whenever they want would make it less hated? Shows how little you know really.

What was YOUR suggestion again?

I don't make stupid suggestions, so when I have one I truly think would be fair on both sides I'll make one.

Oh i can´t really complain about MY games. But i would say i´m experienced enough to see the flaws in this game. You don´t seem to see them. Which is a shame, otherwise we could have a productive discussion.

There's not really much that can't be played around, I'll continue to reach rank one on both sides despite what they change because I'm not a pleb that thinks only 4Ks count as wins and I don't care if I die as survivor because I'm just having fun.

Let´s just stop it here. There is no point in "arguing" or reason with you.

SenzuDuck said:

@Tsulan said:
Let´s just stop it here. There is no point in "arguing" or reason with you.

Seems you have a habit of getting into long conversations with me and then suddenly "but muh don't want to reply". I remember when I was conversing with someone else and you interrupted like "hey let me sort him out he always has a habit of stopping when I join in" yea buddy, keep telling yourself that.

Devs favor fun above anything, or at least they claim so.
I don't like versing DS, i don't like using DS, i don't like my fellow Survivors using DS.

You can guess what i'd like to see changed.

@AnotherRandy said:
KillJiggy said:

@AnotherRandy said:

@KillJiggy said:

@AnotherRawe ndy said:

Only one person has it. The only really easy change to ds would be that only one person can use it. Everyone who takes DS has to take a 5th perk. The survivors who isn't the obsession (random) will get it replaced with the 5th perk chosen in zhe lobby.

As killer, the non obsession DS user is hurting more then the obsession DS. 

Honestly, this would be the easiest and laziest way to balance it and I'm pretty sure that even survivor mains will be okay with that

The problem with this, Is that EVERYONE would run decisive. It would basically be a game mechanic.

What? Hell no, only one will have ds in the match, what are you talking?

Everyone would have DS in their kit. Yes only one person would have it but everyone would have it equipped. Therefore it would be basically a game mechanic where every match one person gets DS.

I don't get the problem, it's equipped, but you can't use it unless ur the obsession. So, what is this argument trying to say?

Im saying there wouldnt be a point in not having it equipped