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Deathslinger has no counterplay?
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A coordinated genrush should not be required to beat a killer. A survivor, which can be a single solo player, should feel like their time and effort invested should be able to thwart off the killer to a limited degree. A good deathslinger will take down any survivor instantly regardless of skill and that should not be acceptable.
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Just curious, you thought Billy and nurse didn't need any nerfs, but huntress and deathslinger do? A good nurse will take down any survivor regardless of skill as well.
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I might not have a problem with deathslinger if they nerfed him to have an animation of lifting his gun. Huntress needs her hitboxes fixed and a cooldown and I might be ok with her.
How often do you see a really good nurse? Once a month.
How often do you see a Huntress wiping the floor with ease? Every day. She's too powerful and convenient.
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I know you weren't asking me, but I think nurse prior to her nerf was OP and needed to be toned down, but is in a good spot now.
Billy nerf was completely unnecessary he only needed addon changes.
My main problem with these killers is their lack of fun back and forth interaction between the killer and the survivor in the chase. The chase is literally what this game is about. Having a killer that is too oppressive in chase or too weak at chase is a bad design. Even if a killer is an oppressive chaser but can still be beaten by a good team by strategies that involve making the chase as boring as possible while ending the game as fast as possible, they're still badly designed because you have a killer that encourages avoidance of what makes the game enjoyable. Similar applies to killer who is too weak in chase. Might be fun for the survivor, but without much room to play with, it's very boring for the killer.
Billy didn't fit in that by any means but nurse did prior to her nerf. Post nerf it's still possible for a REALLY good nurse to fit that, but that's such a minority of players that it's not a significant problem.
Deathslinger requires nowhere near the same degree of mastery and I think the slowdown/delay huntress has makes her fine except for iri head.
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Yeah, I agree, nurse was extremely busted before the nerf, but I am just questioning Sluzzys logic, because it doesn't make sense to me. Deathslinger is much harder to play than huntress, because of how much more precise you have to be, and the fact he has to reload often, (provided, you aren't just faking your power, that takes no skill, and I agree that needs a nerf), but huntress has a higher skill cap, because of her range, and how hard hitting cross map hatchets it, in my opinion. Also, I agree Billy only needed add-on changes, the nerf was unjustified.
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The forums think if you want a killer to be counterable then that must mean you want them to be an M1 killer who is extremely weak
the amount of hyperbole is insane
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Dropping pallets early isn't a counterplay - he can shoot over them and put you into deep wounds. Spreading out isn't a counterplay because a killer can only chase one person at a time regardless. Unless they are Bubba/Oni.
So that leaves your 3rd option. "Move unpredictably". aka - guess, based on him spamming M2 to zone you into a position where he'll only miss if he sucks at shooting. That's your cOuNTeRpLaY.
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- I specifically said dropping pallets early "while injured". Even if he hits you over a pallet he often can't reel you in from behind it to get the down. (P.S. Scott Jund also specifically mentioned this tactic as one of the things you can do.)
- Spreading out is a counterplay that happens to work against most killers, but in particular it works even better against 110% movement speed killers like Deathslinger
- My third point was "use terrain and move unpredictably". Using terrain isn't "guessing" any more than knowing optimal routes in loops is "guessing".
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Definitely. Playing Deathslinger is the best way to learn to counter one. You recognise those points where the Slinger is most likely to shoot at you; when you're heading towards a window or pallet, running along a long wall. That's where as survivor it's your job to be less predictable so that he either misses, or doesn't feel confident to tak the shot at all.
One miss as Deathslinger buys you a lot of ground if you just hold M1 because he HAS to reload, and he doesn't catch up as fast as other killers.
Also it's very similar to Nurse, you have to learn to not be predictably unpredictable. Do you double back every time against a Nurse? She's gonna learn and not overshoot the blink. Do you keep trying to fake a window against Deathslinger? He's gonna learn and not shoot.
Personally I see it more as it's a killer that you have to learn to play against specifically, the "standard" rules don't apply. It's the same as Huntress, Nurse, Spirit, etc. Most people are usually fine with that, but then Scott comes out saying "NO COUNTERPLAY" and everyone just parrots that without thinking, because now there's a reason that's entirely not their own fault to hate the killer.
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- You go into deepwounds anyway. You'e not down, but you're as useless as a downed person because you're on a timer.
- Spreading out isn't a counterplay. Again. The killer can only chase one person at a time. Whether or not you're spread out. What you're describing is generator efficiency - when the issue being discussed is his free no-skill M2 zoning ability in a chase (aka, a 1v1 situation, meaning you need to lay off the "spread out 4HEAD argument").
- Use Terrain and move unpredictably. Except, he can zone you to where he wants you to go (RIP using terrain). Every time you move, you're guessing whether or not he's going to shoot because he can spam his ADS, constantly, and shoot instantly at any given time.
Your points make no logical sense.
This isn't even about opinion - it's actual fact. Go watch Scott's video. He even did the math, down to the milisecond. If you think any of that is "cOuNtErPlAy", and if it's worked for you, every Deathslinger you've faced has sucked. The killer sucking isn't you countering the killer. It's just the killer being bad.
Contact @ScottJund, ask him to set up a playdate with you and Zubat's Deathslinger. Try your CoUntErPlAy with him. Money down you won't, both because you know your logic is broken, and because you're terrified of being embarassed; and believe me, it would be an embarassment.
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Deathslinger has no counterplay cries the survivor as they sprint burst to the nearest broken window and run around it 3 times.
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I did watch Scott’s videos (plural) and you seem to be forgetting that he literally identified the exact strategies I mentioned above as the ways to play more effectively against Deathslinger. His point is those videos isn’t that Deathslinger is overpowered, it’s that the strategy against him is “boring” and “robotic”.
You’re conflating “can’t dodge” with “nothing you can do”. I am NOT claiming you can dodge his shots, which is what Scott timed. I AM saying that there are things you can do to make Deathslinger’s shots harder to hit and THAT is the defense you should use in a chase. “But Deathslinger might still hit you anyway / might be able to zone you away from terrain” doesn’t negate that you should still be trying to do these things because he also might not hit you and might not have the opportunity to zone you away from cover.
Throwing your hands up in the air and exclaiming “iT’s JuST GuEsSeS! no CoUnTeRpLaY!” isn’t a useful way to think about how to play against him.
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He also identified them as "not counterplays", and "not fun". His point that DS isn't overpowered is also a point I echoed here. I never once said he was OP. I said his M2 zoning is a flawed, effortless, skill free mechanic.
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But survivors can use this boring and safe playstyle against every killer, especially the weak ones with zero anti loop ability.
Watched a streamer play pig yesterday and there was zero looping, just run to pallet- drop pallet- wait for killer to break pallet. The entire team did the same tactic while glued to gens and by the time all the pallets were gone 5 gens were done and the gates were 99 for the ds bt combo out the door.
Everyone keeps saying survivors have to play x way or do x thing to counter this oppressive strong killer while forgetting that these tactics are 100 times stronger against weaker killers.
If a tactic or way of playing is possible then you can't pretend it doesn't exist or that nobody will do it.
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And yet nobody has explained what they mean by counterplay. Only that they want aim spam gone meaning that he must take the shot or suffer another loop while ignoring that the spear hitbox is the size of a pin with travel time that is practically luck based to hit a survivor going dawdsdawdasdwdaswdsdadawdasdawdasdawdasdawsdaswdwasdsdwdasdawdaaswdasdawdasdawsd
The only reason huntress can deal with this is because of the size of her hatchets
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”Not Fun” is a totally subjective opinion, completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. To me just dodging an attack you see coming is less fun and more robotic than figuring out how to efficiently use cover to minimize lines of sight, but that’s just me. 🤷♂️
And I would argue his definition of “counterplay” is too limited in that he is only thinking of “hard counters” like dodging as being “counterplays”. But I believe you should include “soft counters” like using terrain to your advantage and early pallet drops while injured (and no, having a Deep Wound isn’t “nearly the same” as getting downed) since they do increase the probability that he will miss and extend your average chase time against him. Just because something doesn’t work 100% of the time doesn’t mean it’s not a counterplay.
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Not fun is subjective. No counterplay is not. Nobody is asking for a hard counter. There just needs to be a downside to his ability to zone.
This isn't an argument you're going to win, bud.
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Scott was specifically asking for the ability to dodge his shots. That is a hard counter. And I’m saying his definition of “counterplay” is too narrow, as is apparently yours.
This isn’t an argument you’re going to win, pal.
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Exactly, they say "no counterplay" because between the time that the shot is fired and the shot lands, the game doesn't bring up a pop up that says "Would you like to get hit by this? Yes. No."
The counterplay exists before and after shots, it's about how you play and making him uncertain and making him miss, not 360ing a harpoon mid-air.
And people are so fast to discount splitting up on gens. A 110 killer that's strong in a chase is fine, but when you hook someone and your choices for what to do next are 3 gens that take 20+ seconds to walk to, you've lost a hell of a lot of pressure and 2 gens. It IS counterplay to adapt your tactics to who you're playing against.
And even after all of that, when you do get shot because No CoUnTeRpLaY!!! you still have input as the survivor to move the chain through objects and break free, denying him the down. Your teammates can run into the chain and force it to break. It's not a 1v1 game. Counterplay exists on more levels that what you can currently do to the killer on your own.
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But they can't run around a truck 3 times, stun the killer and clicky clicky tbag. Can't make a good yt montage from that can they?
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Your point about the 9 meters is actually the glaring issue for me against DS. Nearly every DS will bring monitor on top of his totally messed up TR. So he can sneak up to you this close and sometimes even spear you out of nowherer before you heard anything. I just feel it shouldn't be possible to hit a ranged attack out of the blue and still be so close. Huntress has her lullaby. Mikey can be heard breathing when close, GF' clothes can be heard. Pig has to unsheash or roar, Wraith has to ring his bell (or at least his uncloaking can be heard when near enough). But for DS with Monitor, nothing. You can be speared instantly without preparation. I think he would need at least some audio cue that he starts aiming, that would give survviors are short timeframe to react.
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I laugh at the limited range you say he has as I smile at survivors and pull them back. Good post overall but I still hate him because his terror radius.
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His Terror radius without M&A is 24, 16 with M&A and is max range is 18. T1 Myers can use LoS blocker to close the distance because of his 0 terror radius, same for GF, Pig and DS. T2 Myers with M&A have a terror radius of 8 so it's still easy for him to come close to you for an easy hit/stalking. Yes DS can easily injure you, but downing you is harder.
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Unless I aim mistaken, he does have an audio cue when he is aiming and you are in his cross hair. It's very subtle though, and I believe it was there when he was first introduced. Sounded like a quick ring of a bell, but it is hard to hear cuz of his music.
The short terror radius is one of his stronger advantages, it can help to keep an eye out as a Survivor and be on the lookout to help avoid being ambushed by him. It's not a complete counter but besides Spine Chill it's the best you can do. That and try to keep yourself close to pallets or large obstacles to take cover from should he get the drop on you.
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Would help if people were using the right trigger/mouse and look at their surrounding. It's been 3 game where people DC after 1-2 guys get injured and I hook one when I was in their LoS for more than 40m before hitting them. I wish DC penalty were back and killer get ton of BP for survivor DCing early in the game.
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they to many of these threads.
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Who plays survivor to do gens though or hold w. If you do then that’s honestly just sad.
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If you’re missing shots consistently as a deathslinger main then you obviously haven’t learnt to just not shoot. Then you get the easy m1. Not very hard.
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there is plenty of counter play to nurse, blight and doc. Explain how there isn’t
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You know you can just wait for an animation look before you shoot someone through a window right? If your preemptively shooting then you rlly don’t know how to play him.
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Whenever I see these no xounterplqy threads, I remember "Souls at astake" and its permanent and free deadhard combine with the "killer is attacking"-jingle warning sound.
Thats what people want against DS, nevermind the huge amount of time wasted with reeling in survivors.
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Sorry about that, hope this one was at least entertaining 😅😁
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Yea my bad if ya getting tired of these threads 😅 but I hope it was entertaining somewhat. I totally get some people feelin annoyed by all this.
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that's the gameplay a lot of people who claim deathslinger and PH have no counterplay are calling for, proclaiming it (with an addition of perma-looping) to be 'the most fun' and 'what the game's intended as'...
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Nahh, I'm good. Im not against such threads snd topics, but sometimes theres not much thought put into the actual arguments.
" we want more counter play"
-- cool whats your idea
" make his aiming be super slow so we csn dodge when we see it, also make the shot more obvious, also make terrior radius bigger so we get warned earlier.
-- did you think about the consewuences or how it affects the killer?
"No"
(Bad example is bad)
DS has nothing except the fastAiming that actually helps him, the harringly slow reeling and "ducking weak deep wounds" are all stuff making his ability qeaker than its needs to be. Imagine he really took as long as huntress to ready a shot, he'd be soo much worse than her. He doesnt even have a crosshair lol.
Regardless of the crdibiluty of this example, it actually happens a lot in "nerf this" discussions. Theres rarely any thought put into theoretical consequences. Just look at nurse and what happens when they added just a little cooldown, lol.
It happens a lot in solo-cwf-gap discussions too. They often come up with all those UI-changes or even full blown aura reading ( which i consider the strongest basekit addition ever), but forget that such changes benefit cwf the ssme or even more than solo. Thus the gap wouldnt get closed, but either stay the same or even get bigger. Not to mention the killer compensation, which hardly gets discussed even among killers.
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You are most definitely asking for a hard counter. You should not be able to render his power irrelevant on reaction. You and other survivor mains don’t like killers that force you to play differently: you want to be able to enforce loops on everyone.
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I feel you do not understand what the other one was talking about. It's about and free zoning the DS gets when aiming and canceling it without cooldown to directly M1. It creates a lose-lose-situation for the survivor, if he tries to dodge he is imidiately hit with M1, if not he is imidiately speared. It's the same with PH, btw. I think this kind of situation is solved way better and fairer with Demo, sure he zone as well and hit imidiately when canceling shred, but he cannot jump imidiately. And his shred is only in a straight line and can be dodged.
No one wants to render DS power irrelevant, but there should be some more options for a chased survivor. Right now, being chased by a DS can be really frustrating, bc it doesn't matter what you do, it all depends on the killer whether he hits his shots or not. That's no good design, imo.
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On paper his TR is 16 with M&A, yes, but bc of his messed up TR music he can be way closer until you hear anything, more like 10 meters. And with his harpoon he can LITERALLY spear you without any warning. All the other stealth killers at least have to get really close to you so they can hit you, and all have their faint audio cues that they are near (Myers breathing, GF clothes, Pig unsheath or roar, Wraith bell or uncloaking sounds). Sure they may still hit you, but you have a chance to see / hear them approaching. On maps like yamaoka, there are so many things to clutter your view but have no collision, so the slinger can shoot right through it, giving you no chance to react, since you neither see nor hear him. Downing afterwards is not hard either when the slinger also uses recharge addons, which many do as well (I can't really blame them there, most other addon's are useless).
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I think the main problem is that with his fucky TR he can get a first M1 for free into an immediate shot. That if there isnt a safe pallet and los breaker nearby you're screwed. Theres nothing you can do at all to avoid that hit against a good deathslinger. He'll just aim at your ass and get the large invisible hitbox area even if you juke left or right. His map pressure is insanely bad so it kinda balances out. However it also means hes not viable at all against a good team and very map dependant.
He needs to be reworked to be slightly less opressive in a chase and way stronger map wise.
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Yea I think that’s dumb. If you want counter play on a killer that involves unique movement and knowledge, look at oni’s power, blight, huntress and killers like that who really change up the style of the game and how running killers works.
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Just watch people say 'oh but huntress has her lullaby so you know what you're up against' and then wail about how she's so unfair because 'insert reason x here', be it her addons, be it her range and so forth.
it's a two-fold issue
on survivor side you have some people unwilling to play a match according to whom you are facing, and on killer side you have some people unwilling to play the killer according to their ability. Just look how even big name players play spirit, deathslinger, blight or oni as m1 killers...
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This right here apparently if you want to have chase interaction it has to be a wraith.
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Slinger hard counters windows that's why you cant loop him at a shack. He shoots you and pulls you back into an easy m1 what are you talking about?
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Hes a killer main though that's the thing.
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It sounds like you are talking about a situation in which DS is close to the survivor; I was talking about at range. Yes, up close there isn't much you can do to avoid the shot, but most killers are getting a hit if you are that close. But if you are near a pallet, DS has to guess if you are going to drop it or go around. He can wait for the drop, but then he isn't getting a down.
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Because it's impossible to dodge a skilled nurse or doctor on reaction? You're relying on deadhard or them to miss. Lol, it's pretty obvious.
Blight has a little more counterplay at loops, but once you have to leave, it's entirely in his hands, like the other situations.
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My question to anybody asking for the ability to dodge Deathslinger's shot - what else would you change about him to compensate for that? Because at the moment he's basically an average killer overall, his only strength is that he can quick shot in chases. In fact he's a bit weaker than Huntress as a ranged killer since Huntress can down people from across pallets and has a better one-two combo against healthy survivors.
So if you do, say, slow down his quick shot so it can be dodged then what buff do you want to give him to compensate for that? Because if you only weaken his quickshot and don't buff him somewhere else he'll be a pretty terrible killer overall.
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vsing a doctor isn’t about dodging. This is why people think he’s so strong because no one knows how to play vs him. Your meant to change your route and take unique pathing if he shocks u. For example of he shocks you at a short wall jungle as your going for the window, either go around the outskirts and potentially take the window backwards or run around straight to the pallet like you would with huntrsss or demo.
A good nurse yes is very hard to stay away from, but there are many things you can still do to her, it’s jjudt that good nurses know how to read survivors very well. You’ve gotta make ur pathing super unique and block line of sight as much as possible, make her job harder.
its hot hard to get away from blights power outside of loops. If he dashes at you, find an obstacle to run around which he can’t get around, cars are a good example. I don’t think it’s really fair to say there’s no cointerpkay to blight this early, you’ve just got to learn. He’s not easy like an m1 killer, try different strategies.
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most are sometimes.
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Actually it depends, some loops work hard against him. However I was referring to other killers. Why do people want to play other killers and deal with that? no they'll just play Slinger where they have more input in the chase.
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