An update for Freddy

Old Freddy main here, I miss him so much.

Microsleep is dumb, I just want Old Freddy but remove skill check waking up and use the alarm clocks instead. Generator TP can stay but your snare rework idea is also really cool.

Will never happen though because we need our 3IQ strong killer for those who need him.

I'll have to disagree and say that Freddy was put under the most intense scrutiny during his rework, they changed him from the ground up on a fundamental level that completely altered how his power function in almost every way yet still remained true to his character. What made him a poor killer was very closely examined and explored, his original incarnation was flawed at the most basic level though the concept on paper may have been interesting.

There's a reason that Freddy was reworked to such a scale, the community asked for the change and the developers delivered. The mere notion of re-implementing any aspects of old Freddy into modern Freddy let alone the idea of "taking old Freddy, fix his bugs, and slap on the live version of Dream projection" as if that will make him any better is completely and utterly asinine in every sense of the word.

And I can't believe I have to say this because it's so obvious: Not being able to hit survivors is crippling. I don't mean to be rude, but you have to be out of your mind to seriously believe that this and most of everything else that you're suggesting is anywhere near a good idea let alone superior in-design to modern Freddy.

Most importantly: The Code from Old Freddy does not exist. When the rework went through, this code was deleted, we know this because some few old-version Freddy sympathizers asked the devs if they could keep both the new and old version of Freddy and the short answer was no. One of the cited reasons was along these lines if I'm not mistaken, so long story short unless the devs suddenly have a change of heart and decided to re-animate, re-code, and re-program old Freddy back into new Freddy there is no hope for you or anybody else to ever see old Freddy ever again. Thank God and good riddance.

She is arguably the most poorly designed killer out of the entire current roster. You want an example of bad design @Bard ? Look no further than the Plague.

Don't even get me started, I've written the equivalent of an entire paper on the Plague before, but I'll boil it down for you now to a simple, universal, and well-understood concept that has been repeatedly proven throughout Dead By Daylight's history: Passive is not fun.

Ironically enough, this standard was actually established from the Freddy Rework, Killers had been released before Freddy who had passive powers or passive aspects to their powers, but Freddy's original incarnation pushed this idea to its limit and breaking point forcing a change from the devs because of how terrible it was. Both in regards to it not being fun for killer "Oh man, I get to stand here for 6 seconds and wait until a survivor falls asleep! (Is this what it feels like to be skillful?)" or survivor "Great, I'm asleep and now this Generator is going to take me 10 years to finish, here's hoping a skillcheck pops up soon..." and how poor the ability was from a viability standpoint. With no mobility, no chase potential (being purely an M1 killer), and really nothing of significance or consequence in his kit except for massive slowdown (not interesting) and universal aura reading (not skillful) old Freddy was terrible all around.

The devs since the Freddy rework have followed up on this idea changing some of the most prevalent passive aspects of the game at the time. This includes runner-up for most passive ability: The Doctor, who was also reworked, and the then infamous but-now-a-thing-of-the-past Hex: Ruin rework. More examples can be found but these are some of the most well known, yet despite this there are still killers that exist in today's modern version of the game that are very obviously at fault of passive abilities.

Introducing The Plague (and the Pig!)

Coming in at third place behind the Doctor and Freddy the Plague undoubtedly has a power that is nearly completely passive (and I'll try to wrap this up quickly to stop myself from ranting, I've already written more than I intended to). The problem with her power is it puts the survivor in an un-winnable situation (I use this term loosely, not to describe the match overall but the situation within that match specifically), presenting the survivor with the illusion of a choice but in reality neither option available to them is an appealing one and neither one truly benefits them.

Regardless of the choice which I'll get to in a moment, there is absolutely no counter-play provided to the survivor to avoid her ability. Getting the tiniest bit of Vile Purge on a Survivor immediately means they're sick, there is absolutely nothing they can do to stop the progression of the illness. Realistically speaking the Plague doesn't have to continue chasing that survivor, she doesn't even need to infect them completely, getting the tiniest bit on them means the "timer" has started and eventually at some point during the match they will become broken and injured. No perk, no item, no strat, can stop this from happening, and it's not like this is difficult for the Plague to do, of all the ranged killers she is by far the easiest to control in that she acts like a hose and you can literally spray and pray flicking your mouse from left to right across the entire screen and you'll probably hit somebody.

After that you're broken, and you're presented with that choice I was talking about earlier- either you submit and cleanse yourself with one of the many the Pools of Devotion scattered across the map and give the Plague access to the singlehandedly most aggressive and powerful damaging ability out of the entire killer roster, or you don't cleanse and you remain broken. For the entirety of the match, permanently injured.

At the most basic level this is simply and objectively not fun, for either role. A survivor is placed in an un-winnable situation where neither choice he/she makes really matters, both of them are bad for them and good for the killer, but the killer, the Plague, at the same time is just an M1 killer. After she gets someone fully infected what does she do? She runs the tiles normally as an M1 killer, and like any M1 killer she can be looped to hell and back with zero tools at her disposal to deal with that. Relying purely on the her own skill to run tiles, or as others more pessimistically put it: for the survivor to make a mistake.

I say zero, because we all know the choice most survivors make. Most survivors, unless they are inexperienced or really just don't care and are willing to throw the match, won't cleanse. Which means the Plague is stuck with her one dumb passive ability and distinctly lacking the one fun aspect of her power the Corrupt Purge which is her only redeeming quality- it is completely up to the survivors whether or not she gets access to her power. In other words, survivors are passively afflicted with illness, just so that the Plague can passively (potentially, it's not even a guarantee) get her corrupt purge. She isn't necessarily doing anything (much less anything particularly skillful) to get her corrupt purge, again, it doesn't matter if she gets them sick immediately or if the illness passively breaks that survivor, either way they will eventually become broken and either way they will eventually be confronted with the same un-winnable choice: to cleanse, or not to cleanse. That is the question.

This is why the Plague is my personally most despised and hated killer- both to play as and against. THAT is what bad design looks like.

And really quick I'll force myself to contain this last bit to a paragraph because I did end up ranting: The Pig suffers from the exact same problem The Plague does now and that the Doctor and Freddy did before them, but only to a lesser degree, not as annoying or in your face. Her Reverse Bear Traps are completely passive, she puts one on the head of the survivor and that's it- from then on she has nothing to do with whether or not the survivor lives or dies by the bear trap. She has no control over when it activates, nor does she have any control over how long it stays on their heads, or anything else. The killer is not involved in that process at all, and that is the problem with passive abilities: the fun of Dead By Daylight comes in large part FROM the killer interacting with the survivor. This is a core fundamental truth of Dead By Daylight and its gameplay.

And it's also the reason why Old Freddy sucked, and why he'll never come back in any way, shape, form, or fashion. @Bard

You'd be deluded to think otherwise.

Thank you for coming to class today, I hope you took notes because there'll be a test next week on the content we covered here this week.

Ur right i do agree it is annoying that she negates quite a few amount of perks, which sucks, but i don't think there would really be a way to change this. Personally i don't mind it cause im not usually one to heal anyways.

Interesting point you raised about passiveness, yes i agree passive gameplay and slowdown is very annoying and i think the devs should try to avoid it as much as possible but i don't think its that big of an issue with plague and pig. First of all, you can do many thinks to delay her ability to vomit on you and really make her waste time trying to do so. Also remember it doesn't break you instantly, and yes you can rotate do you really want to be trying to spew on 4 survivors if they are all making sure that doing so is an incredibly hard job? No. I don't see what's wrong with the instadown part, because there are plenty of other killers out there who are instadown. I think it would be boring if it wasnt for her corrupt though. The fact that she starts with one fountain basically gives her the option to use it whenever she wants, which i think is a great design. As survivor, you have to debate whether you want to cleanse or not, which yes both options aren't great for you but are definitely playaroundable. I would honestly reccomend you just cleanse if you're decent at survivor. The fact that she looses her power if she gets stunned is what makes it balanced, and i enjoy being chased by corrupt plagues, because honestly its alot easier to avoid and deal with than people make it out to be. At the end of the day her passive isn't that great, it achieves something legion can easily do, and does take the ability to vomit on people. Legion is far more capable of getting people injured than plague.

For pig i think that it suits she has a passive slowdown. You've got to remember that these killers don't SOLELY rely on their passiveness and it isn't insanely strong like someone like freddy's and old doctors may have been. Pig not only has to get downs for this to work, but if she wants to put any pressure on those survivors, she's gotta catch people at the boxes otherwise they'll just get their trap of eventually, and although yes it does slow down, it's no where near the level of freddy's considering the effort he requires for his slowdown, none.

Yes although these killers do have passive slowdown, i think it works fine for them because not only can it be avoided and takes setting up/effort to use, it is no where near the strength of freddy's and having just a couple of killers with a weaker passive ability isn't that bad. The problem is when you get freddy style passiveness which requires no skill and has no downside.

I wanna love any idea that involves Freddy actually having a dreamworld mechanic again but this idea sounds pretty terrible tbh. Unless I read this wrong you want to reintroduce his massive weakness of having to pull survivors into the dreamworld while removing half his aura range and his slowdown which were the main strengths meant to counterbalance it.

In exchange for this Freddy would receive... demo portals?

Wait, you're saying that clowns gas is weaker chase tool then snares ? Can you explain the reasoning behing it a bit please.

If you're anwer is something along the lines that freddy can spam snares while clown has to reload then the person using the botles isn't probably very good with them so that can't really be a reason behind it. I can't think of anything else that's better about the snares when compared to the gas.

You're probably confused me with seiko300 since this is my first post here.

But just in case you somehow didn't, I'll say that having low skill ceiling killers who are also good isn't a bad thing for DBD. Every killer wants to chill from time to time and just play a less taxing killer while also not getting stomped and freddy is perfect for that. Not every killer should require insane amount of perfect power usage to justify him being good. Freddy is stong and simple to play, nothing wrong with that.

Oh, yes, my bad, I just looked for the profile pic.

And I dont have a problem with simple Killers, in fact, most of them are simple. But it should not be completely braindead.

Let me explain exactly why old freddy was garbage and why new freddy works.

A. Being harmless outside of dream realm leave freddy prone to survivor's pushing a gen until they actually have to move leading to freddy having extremely poor gen pressure. Your suggestion is to reimplement this idea even though it was a majotr reason behind why he was an f tier killer. Are you insane?

B. Trap setting killer have always faired extremely poorly because time is a huge resource in dbd and asking a killer to sit down and plant traps is a big ask. Killers like the hag work because her traps are often fast to place and are extremely easy to track and trigger. Creating immense hook pressure your idea for a spawn point is a waste of time and will just result in a crap version of the hag.

I was there when old freddy was around I took up a dumb challenge by a friend to do get to rank 1 with freddy pre ds rework. It was awful. You will never know the frustration of sitting there staring at a survivor push the last gen utterly helpless because I need to wait for them to transition to hit land. There no exposed no proper payoff for this crippling weakness its just terrible. You can teleport all you like but that doesn't do crap when you cant hit a survivor despite being right next to him.

Of this discussion @Seiko300 puts it best passive abilities aren't fun and freddy's crippling weakness of creating invincibility periods is heavily exploitable. Read below his piece.

pass tbh