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DS does need changes and fast!
Alright so gonna edit this to make more sense.
1. I want to remove DS for about 1 month not a week. This is to showcase why tunneling as a whole needs to be looked at and not have a band aid perk fix.
2. I feel like DS being a perk to stop tunneling was fine as it had an added benefit but now that its most likely only gonna stop tunneling I see no reason for it to he a perk. Not to mention you have to pay for this perk to stop something you can do for free as a killer.
These were my main points. I hope the psit makes more sense now. I'm very worried for the survivor future gonna be another patch 2.0. The start of another nerf era.
Comments
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Tunneling (and camping) need to be punishable, yes. The band-aid perks we have are not enough. I've ran into 6,000 hour rank 1 killers that hard tunnel off hook. It's pathetic and needs to end.
I'd love to use a different perk in place of DS but I can't because I want to be in a match longer than 5 minutes.
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Yes, lets make survivors who tunnel gens punishable! It needs to stop!
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You're talking about how we need the perk because of tunneling while simultaneously talking about liking the perk because of its anti-momentum form and not its anti-tunneling function. That's contradictory. People have also been mad about DS for years, even after each of its "reworks" that still left it in a busted state.
You're admitting that you and others only like the perk because it can be abused as anti-momentum.
While not your intention clearly, you basically affirmed why there's an issue with the perk and why people are justified in their complaints about it.
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Oh boi...
First, which perk are you talking about that got nerfed twice? If it is DS; this is a plain buff. That's why the pickrate is that high, compared to the pickrate before It was "first down usage" instead of "after hook usage".
The most changes requested by everyone would make it a better anti tunnel perk, because it "should" deactivate when you are not tunneled and it stays up longer when you are tunneled. If you need DS to have fun because of tunneling, then the new version is better. For killers as well btw, because they get hit less by DS when they actually are not tunneling.
The only reason why nobody got mad at this perk is because it became an agressive tool for many people, it straight got stronger. No reason actually to be mad at that. When I run it to not get tunneled, I almost never make use of it. Like every 5th game maybe.
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btw nice bait title
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What's exactly wrong with making DS only anti-tunnel perk insted of anti-momentum ? It means it will get buffed to prevent tunneling more and nerfed in ways that allow it progress the match free of danger from killers hooking you. I can't see why would such changes make the perk suddently bad.
Also why should tunneling be punishable ? Playing efficiently to kill off someone asap is nothing that would warrant punishing. Toxic tunneling/camping is something no perk or baseline game change will ever stop. If killer wants to grief you by killing only you fast while throwing the game, nothing can really stop him.
I play survivor almost never using DS and I don't have even half as much problems with tunneling killers as people who run DS every game. Times I get tunneled really fast are mainly those where I played badly and was easy to catch, that's my fault, not killers for capitalizing on me playing bad.
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I like its anti momentum because it justified needing to:
Pay for a perk to prevent being deleted in 2 minutes .
Also I do like its anti tunneling but having to pay for that is ludicrous especially when killer dont have to pay to delete you faster than you can earn bp. I also wouldn't call it abuse because the same devs who claim tis anti tunnel said its smart to be used outside of it but idk these guys are liars and contradict themselves so much. Only when it validates DS being anti tunnel is everyone quick to believe them correct? Problem leaving dbd anyways survivors will killed in the next couple of months to come.
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I don’t think you know old DS, and are just parroting something you read. DS could be used when you wanted it before, you could use it after first hook, after 2nd hook. There was no timer. If you’d like to go back to that, and having to dribble survivors, be my guest
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Not bait it does needs changes to the entire perk.
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in relation to 'The only reason nobody got mad at this perk for being anti tunnel was that it had an anti momentum benefit. Mind you this is a paid perk so not only if you want to jot he deleted you have to pay for it.' 1:Why exactly would someone be mad at a perk for having anti tunnel benefits, and if they were mad about that why would anti momentum benefits cancel those out? 2:it's already been in the shrine 11 times and likely will be again so you don't have to pay for it, and likewise it is not needed to survive or have fun is you later say 'You shouldn't need a paid perk to have fun in this video game'.
'How about make changes to tunneling and not neuter a good perk' what changes do you suggest they make to tunneling? also if they removed the anti tunnel aspect from DS there would be more reason to 'neuter' it.
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There us no build variety when all the builds I run have t ok have DS because killer csnt resist tunneling. So let's jsut remove DS and bt for a week and see hoe matches go. Ik there are some respectable killers but alot of them are just...tunnelers at heart.
That efficient killing method not only removes a player before they can play the game but it isnt very fun to verse. The other side is humans not an ai so they have to be considered it's kinda crazy right?
Once again that's nice kebek but it happens just because it doesnt happen to you it happens.
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So what's your first paragraph about? And what exactly were your suggestions of what and why it needs changes? All I got was "nerf tunneling"
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"I like its anti momentum because it justified needing to:
Pay for a perk to prevent being deleted in 2 minutes ."
Anti-momentum and being too strong is justified to you because it's a paid DLC...you're serious?
A perk being with a paid DLC should never be a justification for a power level, that wouldn't make any sense at all.
People want it to only be anti-tunnel and even better at anti-tunnel than it is now (such as timer pausing in chase among others). No survivors should be upset over a change that makes them get tunneled even less...
The only people that can be upset with this change are people that abused the perk for more than it was intended.
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If you play between 11pm-3am, you’ll get ranked with all sorts of killers and survivors, I’ve been running without DS or Adrenaline for the past month. In 35 Out of 38 games where there was no obsession, killer immediately tunneled unhook survivors into the ground. Being that I had a lot of purple/green/yellow ranks, this made games very unfun, and I would have to BT save before struggle/death to buy as much time as possible. Killers were Red/Purple/Green. Because there was no obsession, it was a license to tunnel.
if someone truly believes if DS was gone killers wouldn’t tunnel, you’re living in a dream world and lying to yourself.
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Bad read then. I did not say that you HAD to use it first down. Btw the dribble was fixed by making the skillcheck appear earlier. Besides that it is not relevant how the perk exactly works and I did not try to point that out. I was just referencing the pickrate at that time.
FYI I started Nov 2017 and do indeed know the old DS and pickrate
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Someone would be mad because it's a paid doc! Having the anti momentum benefits makes the perk better and worth being paid for. It's been in the shrine 11 times but guess what. What if in working or in school or just not playing the game. I've only seen DS in the shrine once playing.
I've missed all those other ones. It's not needed all the time but the majority if the killer finds out you dont have it they will tunnel. You can keep trying to defend this way of playing or defend the fact they are gonna kill this perk, then kill more survivor tools. It is gonna be patch 2.0 all over again.
Getting tunneled out is not fun that's why you need it to have fun. No let's just disable the perk for a couple of days. I want to see hke that turns out.
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The change suggested that I liked most was giving it no timer at all, but deactivates after progressing the game state by, repairing a gen, doing a totem or unhooking or healing a fellow survivor. A variation on this I would personally prefer is that it also can be used twice if you are in fact tunelled twice.
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Once again why do I have to pay for a perk to stop a killer from doing something for free. You never commented on that. Why do I have to pay to be protected from tunneling? Gonna leave it at that because you have no answer. This DS change is going to be the start to a bunch of survivor nerfs. Back to back to back Im guessing.
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I have an answer, the reason it wasn't answered is because that wasn't the point of the post.
Tunneling should be fixed at base, hardly anyone would disagree with that.
The reason it wasn't answered is because as I said earlier, you're argument was in favor of the perk because it was anti-momentum, not anti-tunnel. So you referencing back to the perk being needed because of tunneling is a strawman argument.
We're talking about making the perk BETTER for stopping tunneling.
You keep acting like you need the perk because of tunneling, while openly admitting you want it not for tunneling simultaneously, and then asking why the anti-tunnel perk is behind a paywall... the perk being behind a paywall has absolutely nothing to do with wanting to change how the perk functions.
If you want to argue DS should be moved out of a paid DLC fine, but that has nothing to do with our conversation about DS's balance.
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Add that hooking someone else deactivates it as they aren't being tunneled then and I'm totally fine with this unlimited timer idea.
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Defend what way of playing?, if you mean playing without DS I will defend it, because it opens up for more enjoyable builds for me to use.
Also what do you mean they are going to kill the perk? how is DS going to be killed exactly?
Theres also a ton of other perks that are from paid dlc, in fact some of the perks part of paid dlc are utterly terrible look at Lucky Break or Hex:Third Seal, so how does that justify DS having extremely powerful anti momentum when it is supposed to be anti tunnel?
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If devs removed DS/BT for a week (which they won't, well know that) players would definetly abuse it since they would know those perks are coming back. Tunneling/camping would skyrocket the same way when nerfs to medkits & toolboxes were announced and everyone had to use their syringes and best toolboxes. That would only prove that if something is getting changed for limited duration, people will abuse it for that limited time. Not really a proof that DS and BT are the true saviours who hold camping/tunneling at bay.
Most of the common camping/tunneling is used when it's warranted (unsafe unhooks, all 3 other survivors hovering around the hooked person etc), nothing wrong with those. That's killer not beiing dumb and ignoring survivors horrible decisions for the sake of their fun. I think that people still look at tunneling the wrong way, they want to punish killers for doing it insted of implementing new ways to discourage it.
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lol what killers?
dude you run OoO, there's only 2 killers in the game that stand a chance at deleting you in 2 minutes that's Nurse and Spirit. A Pig or a Wraith sure as hell aren't getting you out in 2 minutes. I can't remember the last time a wraith committed to a chase with me and it wasn't a full game chase.
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doing gen bad
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im confused on what this thread is trying to say
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I edited the post it should make more sense now.
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Edited it.
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okay second attempt. i think the added benefit of anti momentum is fine when its ran by one person but when all 4 have it its just annoying and you lose so much pressure just by getting hit once with ds and you gain like 25m of distance making it hard to chase that same person while others who are probably resetting and/or doing gens and it majorily affects the outcome of your match and punishes the killer for not even doing anything scummy and just playing regulary.
i would agree the perk bandaids should go and make a weaker ds base kit
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If DS would be removed the game would be unplayable and not just literally. Its quite hilarious that so many people intentionally ignore that a 5s stun isnt stopping tunneling at all but still complain about it. This just shows how killer biased this forum is, they just want a slaying simulator.
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I mean its already been discussed to death, buff its anti-tunnelling aspect, nerf its aggressive, do objectives infront of killer, anti-momentum aspect. Scottjund's idea is an example but there are others. No one is saying that DS doesn't function as anti-tunnel but it also does more than that and you know that.
Then again, I see people on here actually justifying its use as an anti-momentum perk rather than an anti-tunneling perk as if you deserve to get anti-momentum for the killer doing his objective and getting hooks.
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Because it's not fair. Honestly what I would do to d's is make it have a much shorter timer that stops in chase and goes slower while slugged. Instead of the killer dropping you, you get to have 50% of their BP gain in that match. You also can't depip if you use it, because it isnt fair to depip when you never got to do anything. This way, it would punish tunneling a lot harder.
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*Golf clap*. I want DS to be basekit, but with some changes, to make it exclusively anti-tunnel, and strong at what it's doing, while nerfing the 60 seconds of immortality part. DS can be used 3 times, the 60 second timer does not go down while slugged, or chased (we need to fix cheesing chase mechanics though). In exchange, the perk is disabled when another survivor is hooked, when touching a gen, or when fully healed.
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Huh, know any other asymetrical game where you beiing killed by the power role is considered unfair ? Asymetrical games work around the idea that the weaker role has the very real posibility of beiing kicked out of the game rather fast by the power role. If you want to play a full match every time you probably shouldn't play the weaker role in asymetrical game.
You people act like DS prevents you from getting hard tunneled. It doesn't, nothing can. If killer wants you dead, you'll die and no perk or game mechanic will save you. Main thing DS does is slowing the match overall and allowing the remaining 3 survivors survive easier but it doesn't stop killer from removing you out of the game in first few minutes if they want to and you can't loop/lose them.
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I just have to point something out tunneling is not a brainless tactic if you are better then the killer you can loop them for gens or until they give up. So I really don’t see how it becomes an issue. A lot of the times it’s not even tunneling, it’s usually someone got cocky or stupid and unhooked while the killer is not doing any thing else or is still right there. True tunneling is if they pick one player even if they will lose the game which does happen but like I said they lose so it hurts one person but not the whole team. My opinion is ds should not exist at all nor should any perk that rewards players for being outplayed but punishing those who outplayed them. I can’t think of any other good game out there that goes “oh you outplayed them? Well sorry we are giving them the win and hmm here have a 5 second stun for your troubles. Your welcome 😊”
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I know that you should never be 100% safe. But you shouldn't be able to just be tunneled out of the game without the killer being punished. Just because the power role wants to be an ######### doesn't mean they should be able to with impunity.
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They are getting punished if you're good. It's generally accepted that tunneling really good loopers is the best way to lose the game with min 3 survivors escaping. Ofc if you're getting tunneled and your teammates are just sucking on their thumbs, killer isn't getting punished but that's the fault of your teammates inability to do gens to give you a chance at escaping.
I get the frustratins behind dying really early but seriously, if all surivors were at least mediocre at looping, killers would lose almost every game they decide to hard tunnel someone.
I still believe that best option to lessen the tunneling issues is by discouraging killers from tunneling rather then punishing them for it.
For example there was an idea that recently unhooked survivors would suffer gen repair speed decrease for a minute or two which rewards killer for not tunneling with more gen pressure. Survivors have higher chance to live longer since they are less of a threat to gens so killers feel less pressured to kill them asap to slow down the game. Both sides enjoy longer match, imao really good idea worth at least testing on PTB.
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I am good at looping, but thats why I always run d's. When I play survivor, I get tunneled to death because I didn't let them kill me. I still depip unfairly.
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Tunneling and camping did shoot up with the recent DS bug. I’ve already written this. 38 games I played where no one equipped DS. 35 out of 38 games I played everyone was tunneled off hook. That’s ridiculous
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DS is an anti momentum perk. Everyone says “make tunneling punishable still base” with zero ideas that could be easily coded into the game. If they actually did that, killer mains would ######### even more. All I’m going to say is this, if people haven’t learned already: be very careful what you ask for. If DS and/or UB are changed, a lot of changes to the game will come, good or bad.
when DS was nerfed last time, enduring was changed. Opened the door for UB because slugging became the strat. Change those 2 perks, meta will again shift. You’ll see
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Isnt it funny how we (survivors) ‘punish’ Camping/Tunneling by bringing a perk, while killers have these built in mechanics virtually in every match and yet the fallacy that this one perk is “omg so powerful” when killers upon killers don’t even see this perk hardly in every match?
It is merely anti momentum in every aspect, even when the killer came back to tunnel you because they STILL tunnel after the stun.
I can guarantee you that at least half of these people will say “it’s a strat” because they caught someone by playing this way, but I guess because I decided to bring a perk which through very specific strategy you manage to pull a stun, it suddenly becomes a “cheesy” mechanic. As if standing still in one place or ignoring every survivor, and focusing on that same one isn’t.
This is why I don’t even take “fix DS” type threads anymore.
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Even if DS was anti-momentum, which it isn't, how is that fair?
A perk shouldn't just be able to do that with barely any input from the other side, remember the disaster that was old DS and MoM?
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So do you think that a killer actually stops tunneling because they see an obsession in the match? Do you actually believe that works? Red rank survivors would like to tell you otherwise.
It is fair when you consider that killers have 0 downside on Camping/Tunneling and how freely they can do that. Adjust those mechanics and I’ll gladly talk about adjusting DS. As it is right now smart killers can get around the DS timer and still play scummy.
So yeah, that’s where I find it’s fairness. In the fact that those two mechanics are still till this day very meta.
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God I remember that. If I played killer every game I had to put up with DS and dribble to avoid getting hit by it, wasting a ton of time. Meanwhile as survivor, I never run it until long after it's rework and even then only use it in periods where I feel killer tunnel like crazy (and even then avoid using it) and honestly? I remember how bad tunneling was back then. DS is definitely stronger now, but it also has much more counterplay.
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Yeah, sure, I'm fine with making DS basekit, with some tweaks. Make it a multiple time use perk, the timer doesn't go down in a chase or when slugged. However, it should be disabled when fully healed, when touching a gen, or when someone else is hooked.
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Also, remember the BS that was wiggle DS? Bodyblocking was legitimately busted back then, because you couldn't even dribble to avoid wiggle DS.
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Oh yes, I remember that well. Very busted mechanic. You only had to wiggle what 40%? So if you weren't right on a hook when downed, a single bodyblock hit meant you got to use the perk. Wasn't fair one bit and had zero counter.
AND you had no way of knowing they had it if they weren't obsession. Weird times.
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It wasn't even 40, it was like 30, god how did I even play this game?
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killers do tunnel because the game is unbalanced and you cant perform 12 fresh hooks without failing misserably, agaisnt decent survivors.
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They are punished. In the ranking system, which will soon mean more given that rank rewards are coming.
Should they be punishable by any sort of authoritative action from the devs? No. Never.
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agree!
You can tell people not to hack and exploit, but the second you start telling people that they are no longer allowed to play the game with a certain playstyle (and yes, camping and tunneling are playstyles. Not great ones, but playstyles nonetheless), it's no longer a game, but a linear interactive cutscene.
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