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Scott and otz on ds vs pop.
Comments
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Nice fan fiction
1) Wow so detrimental...against meme builds
2) It is the reason for the very existence of the perk
3) Difficult skill check? Are you joking right?
4) You can be slugged for 60 seconds where
- you can be saved by your partner
- get up on your own in case it doesn't happen with Unbreakable
- stand up in the face of the killer waiting for your Unbreakable with Soul Guard
Multiple downsides If the survivor plays worse than a brainless monkey surely 👍
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On a related note on Otz's stream now and both he and his partner say PH doesn't need the nerf.
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If its goal is to actually be an Anti-Tunnel perk, I think when a survivor is capable of doing a DS, the killer should get a notification. It doesn't have to be specific, but "Decisive Strike" should pop up on your Hud, letting you know someone on the field is capable of doing it. Any semi-smart killer will be able to figure out who has it. That way, at least if you slot it, OK, I have to respect it... but ALL Survivors don't benefit from this 5th slightly less powerful "phantom perk" that every killer has to play around even if you don't have it.
Although counter argument to my original argument, that would just make it go from something almost every survivor runs to something every survivor NEEDS to run. Without exception.
So meh, I don't really know how you address it other than nerf it into the ground... which even as a Killer main, I'm not sure that's best for the game.
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How on Earth can you compare Apples to Bananas?? My goodness, people will find any reason to complain about other perks.
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That's just you. Tell it to the tens (hundreds, thousands, whatever) of people who jump in my face after they get off the hook.
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Hey man,
one thing that really bugged me about your video is that you completely ignored the fact that the killer has to earn pgtw with a hook and the survivor gets ds for free. Just really asking, do you think that actually should be considered when comparing the 2 perks regarding the impact of the perks they have on the match?
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Yeah survivors who happen to have Soul Guard might get out of that sticky situation. Still A) A Hex is required. B) A heal is required.
Still doesn't justify how your ability to slug 'indefinitely' is not even a perk, It's a built-in mechanic. Imagine if the game was actually balanced like other games where killers aren't allowed to do that (RE) and where the game sends them back to where they spawned if they are on the ground for too long. Or if after sometime you are allowed to pick yourself up without a perk.
But go ahead and pop off about how survivors have everything.
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All games balance around good players, welcome to 2020. If DS were removed from the game, it would make no difference for Johnny casual playing with his friends on the weekend.
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Hey, when you run out of material, just make up dumb ideas.
Seriously though. Who says stuff like that?? LOL It's like saying "I won't use my DS because it's too early game and the killer hasn't had any kills." 😂
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Agreed the downsides are so minor it's almost irrelevant. Those of us that play both sides at high rank 1k+ hours get it. That said I'll still be using the meta for both sides. Can't keep me down. 🤘
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That is the reason that I said "killers control the activation of both perks". And yeah, it did get at me a little bit that it wasn't mentioned.
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Another Scott video? I fear it's filled with far too much logic for the developers to bother watching.
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Tbh I don't want them to touch DS. It's definitely abused by Survivor players now, but if the Devs aren't careful with tweaks or reworks, it could easily be abused by Killer players. I just think they could make maps smaller so it's easier for killers to apply pressure on maps. (Along with, of course, removing Bloodlust and making more pallets fair.)
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I just want them to nuke DS so I can see what killer complain about next, I'm genuinely interested.
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Babysitter.
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I know you're trolling but genuinely interested.
I guess it would be unbreakable, but UB / DS are often paired in arguments together and would one be "op" without the other, I'm curious.
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Eh, I think unbreakable is too situational, and is only OP at the highest level of play, which is tournament level.
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I dont want to use DS either. I only use it defensively.
Its these chumps that use it offensively that are going to get it nerfed. I’ve seen people pop a gen in front of the killers face with DS.
I’m sure these clowns will be the first ones to complain too if it ever does get nerfed.
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Soul Guard is now guaranteed a meta perk. Because now that Pop is nerfed, guess which progression slowdown will be the new killer meta, as if it already wasn't? That's right, friend, Ruin/Undying! A hex combo that is a massive buff to Soul Guard by virtue of having a very high chance of staying up for much longer into a match and by being a meta perk.
And you don't need a "heal" for Soul Guard to let you eat a free hit, at least now how you seem to be implying. You can pick yourself up off the ground unlimited times as long as a hex is active, which counts as a heal. So the killer literally can't hook you or slug you without eating a massive penalty. For doing what he's supposed to do. Even killer "equivalents" like Dragon's Grip make a single (25% of the team) survivor exposed for 60 seconds. It doesn't automatically put you in the dying state or anything. The Killer still has to come and actually hit you to take advantage of it, and if you're already injured the only thing he gets out of it is the scream, which is totally busted.
DS on its own is very strong, DS with Unbreakable and now Soul Guard is just completely farcical.
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His point about whataboutism was in terms of discussing game changes. i.e. every argument being shut down and not proceeding because of "what about X perk?!"
There is no argument here, they nerfed Pop. There is nothing to shut down, it happened. So now we can ask: What about DS?
Whataboutism isn't literally just asking the question "what about," it's using that as a distraction from an argument or question.
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Also, I'm going to come back to my reply from earlier in the near future, because mark my words, killers will find a way to complain about babysitter one day.
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Looks like someone has never had a monumental landslide and got DSed by someone who got unhooked before you hooked 2 other people. You don't have to have tunnel vision on a survivor to get hit by DS, I can't believe its almost 2021 and people still have this mindset.
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Off the top of my head the only other currently abusable perk is BT. With DS and BT out the way I can't really think of another perk that should be complained about. Nerf Deja Vu threads incoming.
On a more on topic note, DS needs changes soon, like last month soon lol.
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"haha killers don't like meta ridiculously powerful perks that means they'll complain about terrible perks too i am using very good logic"
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I mean, I have seen an unironic thread about how OP no mither is, and how all 4 survivors should start the trial downed, with a 1 time built in unbreakable, so I know it will happen eventually.
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Yes, you seeing an occasional post by a new player or some memelord is the killer community.
Haha survivors will complain about anyyyything!
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Exactly, both sides complain about ridiculous things, I've also seen survivors complain about unrelenting, old bubba, old Freddy etc.
I will eventually see your average noob or some memelord make a thread about how babysitter busted.
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But the original point being made is that killers just complain about everything, which is always a nice quick and clean way to dismiss killer feedback, because they just cry about everything, right? You shouldn't listen to those guys, they'd even cry about babysitter! You only brought up killers, no mention of noobs or memelords or survivors, in order to dismiss complaints like this.
It's an inevitable point that someone will attempt to make in any thread where someone has a gripe about something like DS.
People should be able to voice their complaints without being summarily dismissed if their complaints aren't total nonsense and they're not brand new.
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Yeah, I will try and word my sentences better, I'm a killer main too. I think DS is busted as well, I was just making a joke saying that someone will eventually complain about babysitter.
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All the devs need to do is change ds so it deactivates when someone else is hooked. It'll make killers happy and survivors shouldn't have an issue because it still remains an anti-tunnel perk. The only people who would have an issue are the ones who abuse it, but try and hide behind the "I nEeD iT tO AvOiD bEiNg TuNnElEd" defence.
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One issue with that is that killers can camp me, down me, down the unhooker, hooks them, and now he is free to hook me.
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That's why borrowed time exists. Also, never fall for that camping trap, work on gens and get out. And that's not really an issue, you created a 1 in a million scenario to justify not fixing a perk that gets abused on a regular basis.
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Sounds like you want DS to be both an anti-tunnel perk and an anti-camping perk. Borrowed Time already fills the niche of being anti-camp. If the unhooker is carrying Borrowed Time and the killer manages to down the unhooker as well as the unhooked through Borrowed Time........ that sounds like a case of, dare I say, being outplayed!? Legitimately, in that circumstance, MAYBE both survivors deserve to be punished for bad teamwork through hooking?
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Scott's wrong about PGTW though. How is the distance traveled to the gen and the kick factored into the time taken away from the gen through PGTW? He says it's really 13 seconds, that's just plain wrong! it's 20 sec MINIMUM (disregarding perks, toolboxes, and duo on gen) if the gen was above 25% and that's guaranteed PLUS the amount you would get through the regression of the gen. You could regress a gen that's about to be completed if you kick it with pop and if the survivors don't go back to it because they are unaware as a team then you get EVEN MORE value than 20 sec. Even if the survivors do know and go back to work the gen than you could just use his argument against him by saying that they have to travel to the gen and stop the regression while moving slower than the killer. His argument about PGTW makes 0 sense. SEND HIM THIS I WANT A REPLY.
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You're taking it too literally. Its 13 seconds (in that example) of "gained time" not "actual time" on the generator. The time spent walking to make use of the perk is time spent not pressuring any of the survivors on the map, so it is "lost time." For example, when you down someone after a 20 second chase, you are actually still spending more than 20 seconds to get anything out of it, as you'd have to spend time picking the survivor up, then walking to a hook, then hooking them.
Gens regress at an extremely slow rate, taking 4x as long to regress as it takes to complete, so the effects are fairly neglible unless the gen is ignored for half a match.
To your other point that a survivor has to spend equal time walking back to the gen, yes, you are correct, but you are also ignoring that there are three other survivors whose have no relevance to that situation. Every second a survivor spends doing something, a killer basically spends 3 equivalent seconds doing it. So one survivor walking to a gen takes 5 seconds, but a killer walking to a gen, although still literally taking 5 seconds, allows 15 seconds of gen progress overall on the map due to the other survivors doing their own thing.
They're not even close.
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If you ever played killer with good momentum like Nurse and Spirit, you should knew by now that you get punished for DS just by downing survivors too fast.
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Yeah but what about Déjà Vu? It also has a duration of 60 seconds...
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Yes, but what else can you do in that situation? You either kick the gen nearby and try to set up for a 3 gen situation which is the best way to win vs good survivors or you just let them finish the "better" gens. C'mon, we both know that you don't defend gens that are literally across the map or in ######### positions such as corners of the map because it's not realistic to defend those in high level play.
Gens regress at a slow rate, but it's better than absolutely nothing. People have complained for years about gen regression being to slow plus survivors shouldn't be able to click gens to stop them, they should have to work them for 5 secs to stop the regression.
Your last point is true, but that's universal for every match and nothing can be done about that because its a 4v1 game and was designed that way. All the killer can do is defend gens and hook people and he should prioritize the "better" gens by setting up "3 gen" situations anyways.
PGTW is generally not good early game unless you have extra time for some reason through pressure which shouldn't happen if the survivors are good, but it's pretty damn good late game when multiple survivors are injured and there is less gens on the map and you're getting multiple downs. You said it yourself that you get like at least 5-7 kicks a game which is a gen and half usually. It's up there as one of the better killer perks although inferior to the new ruin and undying combo.
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I'm not justifying anything, I think the current DS is too soft on tunnelers and should be reworked to punish them more.
I'm providing an example of how the changes you provided can be abused
No, you misunderstood me.
I'm replying to the post that suggested a change and I've shown how the proposed idea can be abused by killers.
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I have no weight in the DS conversation, i don't run it as a survivor and it really does not bother me in killer matches either, neither does BT.
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Great, you can parrot Scott. Using one perk change to fuel “change DS” is a whataboutism. It inherently conflates one perk to another, when the perk used as the “point” wasn’t inherently changed to support his argument. His whole argument was based on Pop being 25% and that time vs DS time. The % on Pop wasn’t changed - it’s been 25%.
Scott’s argument. “Pop was changed to 45 sec. You guys know if DS is used 4 times, the survivor can get 20 seconds before killer catches up (for brain dead killers who don’t know how to cut people off, and on those pesky maps where pallets immediately reset and respawn if broken). But for Pop you kick 20 sec off a gen, but it takes you 5 sec or more to walk to a gen. So it’s only 15 sec, and even if you get it 8 times that’s 120 sec at best (Scott’s math, DS 23 sec x 4 = 92 sec fyi). Therefore, DS should be nerfed too!”
sounds like a whataboutism to me.
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