The Amanda's Letter add-on for The Pig has been Kill Switched due to an issue with incorrect RBT count.
http://dbd.game/killswitch
PSA: How to properly calculate how long slowed interactions will take
Apparently this is needed again and I'm not sifting through 1k of my own threads to find the other PSA I already opened on the subject, so here we go.
Here are the facts you need to know beforehand:
- Interactions in DbD are measured in charges (c)
- Interaction speeds are measured in charges per second (c/s)
- The default interaction speed is 1 charge per second (1 c/s)
- Debuffs of the same type that come from different sources stack multiplicatively
- Buffs of the same type that come from different sources stack additively, but they're usually capped, depending on the type of buff
To get the total interaction speed, you divide the number of charges required by the speed at which you're interacting. Below are two examples with debuffs, both centered on generators, which require 80 c.
Example 1 - Dying Light with 3 tokens
Dying Light gives survivors a 3% speed debuff in several interactions. With 3 tokens, that's 9%.
The interaction speed is, therefore, 1 - 0.09 = 0.91 c/s.
The time required to repair a generator becomes 80/0.91 = 88 s (approximately). As I said above, you divide the number of charges required by the speed.
Example 2 - Dying light with 6 tokens and Thanatophobia with 3 injured survivors
Dying Light is providing an 18% slowdown, while (current) Thanatophobia provides a 12% slowdown.
The interaction speed is (1 - 0.18) x (1 - 0.12) = 0.82 x 0.88 = 0.7216 c/s.
The time required to repair a generator becomes 80/0.7216 = 111 s (approximately). Again, you divide the number of charges required by the speed.
Comments
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@MandyTalk @Peanits can one of you please pin this thread, to help with the discussions around Thanatophobia and the PTB numbers?
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Pretty sure most % effects are additive based on 100%.
For example, PWYF increases movement speed by 5%, but it is assumed a killer moves at 115%, so the benefit is additive and makes you go at 120% speed. Or 115% speed if you are a 110 killer.
Not sure on slowdown effects though, but that would be weirdly inconsistent if it wasn't additive.
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Buffs are additive and usually capped, debuffs are multiplicative, providing a soft cap. If debuffs were additive you could reach -100% on certain interactions.
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I was unaware of this info and i will take it from your 16k post that you've been around the dbd block sort of speak lol
Thanks for the knowledge.
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For the record, this has nothing to do with DbD knowledge, it's just math.
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Yeah but ain’t nobody got time for that. Most people use the simpler way - Do I win? Yes = perk is good, no = perk is trash
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Thanks. Hope they pin this so people can see this and stop using wrong math.
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I hope so too, especially since the last one was buried.
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Are there any mods around to pin this?
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Please pin this helpfull thread!
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I don't understand what you mean with "debuff of the same type stacks multiplicatively" and "debuff from different sources stack additively".
If that was the case, 2 tokens of thana would apply a 16% debuff (4% * 4%), while obviously that's not the case.
Also, in your second example you multiply the debuffs from dying + thana, which are "two different sources", hence, by your definition, should stack additively.
..this being said, to my knowledge these debuffs should all stack additively, meaning that 3 tokens of thana (12%) + 6 tokens of dying (18%) should add up to a 30% slow down, not to a ≈28%
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I said debuffs on one and buffs on the other, read it again. Debuffs do indeed stack multiplicatively, or else you'd be able to get -100% interaction speed in certain circumstances. However, because debuff perks that have tokens or something akin to tokens say that the total debuff is the number of tokens multiplied by the base debuff (for example, two injured survivors with Thanatophobia means 2 x 4% = 8% debuff), I didn't feel the need to explicitly mention that only debuffs from different perks stack multiplicatively. I've edited the OP to be more clear.
Also, 4% x 4% = 0.16%
Hoping @Gay Myers (Luzi) reads this thread and pins it...
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I forgot to tell you before, but your PWYF example s actually wrong. See, 115% and 110% are relative to the survivors' base sprinting speed, which is 4 m/s. A 5% boost to a 110% killer is actually a 5% boost applied to 4.4 m/s, which is equal to 4.62 m/s, or 115.5% (again, relative to the survivors' base sprinting speed).
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ok makes sense, I misread "buffs" to "debuffs" since that was the topic of discussion.
is there an official statement anywhere regarding this debuff stacking behaviour?
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Yes, McLean confirmed it. The exact quote (recovered from the wiki, because I'm not gonna search the forum) was:
"The secret in the sauce is that positive action speed modifiers are added together before being applied, whereas negative action speed modifiers are applied sequentially. Let's say you have Botany Knowledge (+33%) and Resilience (+9%), but you're Mangled (-20%) and using Self Care (-50%). Charges per second will be (1+0.33+0.09)(1-0.2)(1-0.5) = 0.568. Healing takes 16 charges, so it'll take 16 / 0.568 = 28.16 seconds to heal." - Louis McLean
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That i know is inaccurate. Buffs like that are relative to what the 100% case is.
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Yes, and a slow killer's speed is 4.4 meters per second, or 115% of a survivors' base running speed. The 5% bonus is applied to 4.4 meters per second. Why would the bonus be based on the survivors' running speed?
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I understand that, but i'm saying it's additive. It's likely programmed like this:
- Base movement speed is 4 meters per second for everyone
- Killers with different movement speed have a "buff" that gives them extra percentage movement speed
- PWYF and other movement speeds stack additively
Thus a 110 kill with 1 stack of PYWF works as:
4 meters per second * ( 1 + (0.10 + 0.05) ) = 4.6 meters per second.
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It's not, though. We say 110% and 115% because it's easier to visualize than saying the actual values in meters per second (especially since a large portion of the playerbase doesn't even use meters). However, they're programmed with specific values. It'd be ridiculously inefficient to have the game calculate a killer's movement speed when it's a constant.
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Got any proof? I have seen streamers test it before and it seems clear that it is additive.
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i hope this is going to clear some of the misunderstandings that happen in a lot of those "Thana is useless now" posts.
literally had someone tell me that new thana at 4 stacks would only increase the repair time by 12 seconds... (its 20 seconds, for those who were wondering - 80 / 0.8 = 100)
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It is additive, just not in the way you think.
The only evidence I can offer is the wiki. The numbers are too close to see in a recording.
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All interactions that contain a progress bar are measured in charges.
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A wiki editable by anyone is not good proof.
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Neither is eyeballing it. On the other hand, the wiki is reliable because they can actually see the game's code, and what I know of programming tells me you're wrong, because it makes no sense to have the game calculate each killer's movement speed when you can just save it as a constant.
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What are the caps? I was not aware of the caps to speed buffs.
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Depends on the type of buff. Even I don't know them by heart.
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Okay but which buffs are capped? Surely you know at least one example.
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If I'm not mistaken, healing speed is capped at +100% for each individual healer (that part is very important).
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That is a myth. Healing speed has been proven time and again to not be capped at 100%.
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How was that proven?
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The healing speed cap was just people misinterpreting the description of We'll Make It, which was nerfed to not stack with itself for insane healing speeds from one perk. This description has since been changed. If you use we'll make it, botany knowledge, desperate measures, etc. together you will notice the difference from just we'll make it. There are also plenty of "max healing speed" videos out there that once again prove the myth wrong.
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Learn something new every day.
I think one of the devs confirmed the Haste bonus from non-Exhaustion survivor perks is capped at 7%.
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"They" can't see the game's code, it's a wiki, i can go edit the page right now to say whatever i want.
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I've had an admin friend of mine show me the game's code because they wanted help understanding it, and there are guides on how to read the actual game's code, but you believe what you want.
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You can also edit Wikipedia whenever you want but that doesn't stop the fact admins are aware of any and all changes made and your account gets banned if you get the length of a ship wrong by a couple of millimetres. They're on that #########, trust me.
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I just confirmed with my admin friend that the Haste bonuses from Hope and Blood Pact do not stack, meaning the Haste bonus from those is capped. They also don't refresh each other's timers. Just mentioning since you wanted to know a buff that was capped.
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The point is. You can't just come in here and make blanket claims with no proof other than "a wiki anyone can edit" and "don't worry I have a friend"
You sound like the guy who says "my uncle works for nintendo, trust me".
If you can provide some kind of actual proof for your claims or if devs want to comment sure, but you can't expect people to just take your word.
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I mean, I do expect that after 16 thousand comments, people have a little trust in what I say, but if you're skeptical, you can just import the game to the Unreal Engine (it's free) and check for yourself. I'm not 100% sure how you actually do that, but there are tons of guides on it.
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That's not how that works. The game code is compiled. You can't just decompile it and have it work perfectly. Unless the game leaked at some point and if that's the case there's no telling when it was or what version.
Also. I don't care if you have a million posts. Using your post count as if you are some authority figure is a logical fallacy. Appealing to your false authority doesn't make your argument or your lack of evidence any better.
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Also. I don't care if you have a million posts. Using your post count as if you are some authority figure is a logical fallacy. Appealing to your false authority doesn't make your argument or your lack of evidence any better.
My point is that people have gotten to know me and know I don't talk out of my ass. If I'm not sure about something, I say so. If I am sure, it's because I've done the research.
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PWYF % is based on the Killer's "normal" movement speed. If they're 4.6 m/s and get a 10% buff, that's 5.06 m/s.
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Buffs are additive.
Debuffs are multiplicative.
So to find out how long it takes to heal with Sloppy Butcher (20% debuff), 2 stacks of Thana (4% debuff each stack), Botany Knowledge (33% buff) and Resilience (9% buff) the formula looks like this...
16 / (((1 - 0.2) * (1 - (0.04 * 2))) + 0.33 + 0.09) = 13.84083045 seconds
From my own personal testing, it seems that the game doesn't round up or down after the first decimal it merely drops all the numbers after it. So the above value is simplified as just 13.8s. Even if the second digit was 5 it would be the same. However this is testing on Xbox which is 30fps, so accurate measurements are more difficult. It may be keeping the second digit and dropping everything after that (ie. 13.84s).
Also @Orion there is no cap for survivor actions. The only cap is We'll Make It which doesn't cap overall heal speed, it just caps the max bonus of WMI to +100%. So instead of getting 300% for saving 3 people in 60 seconds, you just stay at 100%.
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From my own personal testing, it seems that the game doesn't round up or down after the first decimal it merely drops all the numbers after it.
That's truncation, ubiquitous in programming.
Also @Orion there is no cap for survivor actions. The only cap is We'll Make It which doesn't cap overall heal speed, it just caps the max bonus of WMI to +100%. So instead of getting 300% for saving 3 people in 60 seconds, you just stay at 100%.
I didn't say actions were capped, I said buffs were. I confirmed that the Haste bonuses from Blood Pact and Hope, for example, don't stack, meaning they're capped at 7%. However, it could also just be that the biggest buff is applied.
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It's not a cap, the effects are just not stackable. It is the same sort of thing as Sheep Block. When a survivor runs through a puddle, they get 30s of Blindness. If they run through another puddle 10s later, the timer just resets to 30s instead of going to 50s. Sheep Block isn't stackable, and neither is Haste for those perks. But you can stack the speed buff of Hope with something like Sprint Burst to move at 157%.
Also you said...
"If I'm not mistaken, healing speed is capped at +100% for each individual healer (that part is very important)."
Which is not true. If it were than it would be impossible to solo heal another survivor in under 8 seconds. However you can prove this is possible with an Emergency Medkit, needle, abdominal dressing, Resil, Botany, Desperate Measures, Spine Chill, and the survivor you are healing having Leader. When you needle them, the heal will be done in something like 5 seconds.
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It's not a cap, the effects are just not stackable.
Alright.
Also you said...
And I was later corrected, which you can see further down.
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Basically this tells me that slowdown perks that are constant with HIGH numbers (ruin) and slowdown perks that do high reduction (pop) inherently much stronger.
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You don't need all that info to realize that.
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