Let's stop with this devs are bias towards one side stuff.
I find it very hard to believe the devs are "survivor sided" or have a "survivor bias." I get killers need buffs and some killers need reworks but damn stuff on the killer side needs nerfs as well. 1 nerf does not mean the devs care more about the survivors.
I'm going to keep making this point until it sticks. Since patch 2.0 it's been a nerf for survivors nearly every patch. How is that survivor bias? The pop nerf I dont think its needed but it makes sense. The devs have to rework ds not just decrease the timer thats why it wasnt changed yet.
One more thing if the devs are really all for survivors why have all items and add ons excluding fire crackers, keys and their addons(soon to be nerfed) been nerfed?
That's all.
I'm making this edit because people also say the devs are killer sided if they so something in favor of killers. So my new conclusion is if you say the devs are bias towars any side you are very much wrong.
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It's not the dbd community if one side gets a buff, the devs are labelled as x sided and if the other side gets a buff the devs are labelled as y sided.
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Overall, I think it says nothing and adds even less to conversations to talk about survivors bias (and killer bias) but it pops up everytime the devs do buffs/nerfs to one side. It's fine to talk about the fact that you think DS is equally deserving of a nerf as Pop but bringing up the bias stuff derails things. It's only there to make people feel better about themselves.
Either way, I don't think it matters if some1 says it. It just ruins their own arguments by saying something that doesn't really mean anything or change minds.
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thanks for making this, you have no idea how much it pisses me off when people offer the "dEvs ArE so BiAsEd" argument.
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Yeah it can get pretty annoying when someone sees a change they don't like and it becomes "I don't understand it, so you must be the idiot."
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Yeah, I feel like they are pretty fair right now, they ######### up and were extremely survivor biased in the past, but now they are doing well, and their game is balanced.
Let's not forget this gem.
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Devs should just release detailed game statistics. The problem is that everyone judges things anecdotally which is heavily based on negativity bias. Yes, people have many valid criticisms, but you are also much more likely to remember the one time that something negatively impacted you rather than the 10 times nothing happened.
The devs have their own internal metrics that they are balancing things around which is driving their decisions. That being said, they should release these metrics and have a two way conversation with the community so people can understand the rationale behind their decisions.
Although I guess from their perspective, releasing these metrics will lead to "OMG SURV/KILLER NEEDS TO BE NERFED BASED ON X WIN / USAGE RATE".
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I don't think they were extremely survivor biased in the past. I think they just made lots of mistakes LoL. Also, somethings are easier to fix/tweak than others.
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Playing killer is easier than ever because it was downright broken the amount of "bullying" killers used to have to deal with in older iterations of the game. Old man waving his cane yelling, "Back in my day, windows didn't have a 3x per chase limit, Sabotage broke hooks forever, Infinites were everywhere, Exhaustion used to return while you were sprinting around looping, Balanced Landing could be run "alongside" Dead Hard due to secondary effects, etc etc)
I'll only agree with @azame (because he is definitely a bit biased to one side as well) to the point that riskier and more interactive gameplay elements are "less" rewarding now especially if you're working off the incomplete info of a solo player. Why not just power gens asap, play around Blood warden and Noed and leave if the object is to just "win" rather than have more multiplayer interactions. The current tentative balance doesn't apply to everyone on a side because it's a dynamic centered around the masses or more specifically the "average" solo queue player without any outside communication rather than top players who can play optimally AND have another third party advantage that cannot be blocked completely for more than one reason.
My current hill I'm waiting to die on is buffing these solo queue survivors to be on a similar level before continuing to bandaid the game while admitting that 3rd party voice chat SWFs are a thing but choosing not to address it by the only logical way that it won't kill the game. You can't expect any meaningful buffs to killers if you aren't using the "baseline assumption" that survivors have a minimum communication level across the board.
If you don't want a competitive game and this game to be forced to be "casual" then survivors should bumble around like Fall-guys and the killer should flail about like Octodad... but people are obviously sticking with this game because it has that "magic" of good controls and mechanics in a lot of areas.
Post edited by ZCerebrate on5 -
They were, I remember they nerfed old Freddy because survivors were whining, also during the lunar event, they made the most stupid pallet change in the game, but quickly reverted it.
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i dont care too much about this topic but i will say more then survs, the killer side gets the most of treatment in terms of nerfs like when was the last time u saw a survivor nerf that wasnt just now this is actually fair change then anything
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Finally someone says it. I've argued with so many people that say the devs have a survivor bias, and every time I argue with them, they refuse to admit they're wrong.
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its always the same in here...
Survivors get a buff / Killers get a nerf - the Killercommuity cries how Survivorsided the Devs are and that the game will be unplayable now.
Killers get a buff / Survivors get a nerf - the Survivorcommunity cries how Killersided the Devs are and that the game will be unplayable.
and then, a couple of weeks after the update dropped and people had actually enough time to test the new things out, all of a sudden all the complaints have died down, as people started realyzing that it wasnt even that bad.
of course that doesnt mean i would agree with all the changes the Devs have made by now (e.g. i dont think they should have made it easier for Billy to overheat again / at least not as drastic as they have), but a vast majority are a-okay, once you actually took the time to look at them and how they change the game.
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Back in the day during the howling ground guaranteed flashlight and pallet save yeah that was a survivor sided update I remember abusing that. It wasnt fair at all.
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Yeah but to me I find it extremely frustrating to read a post about the new patch and then someone saying the devs are biased towards this side or that. If they were truly biased they wouldn't make all these decisions.
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Yeah because the devs are clearly survivor biased despite the fact survivors have been getting hefty nerfs.
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I wouldn't say so but to each their own.
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I'd rather say the truth.
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Truth but I complain more about entitlement than the devs.
While I personally hate a few things they do, Billy nerf as an example, I know why they did it.
But here is a question regarding balance and here is what I will say first before the question.
You can't have 100% on one side and 50% on the other, so while they are nerfing survivors often now, they still have to get closer to the 50%, I'm not saying that it is easier for one side, I'm saying in terms of balance.
So here is the question, which nerf for survivor hasn't been called for? Toolboxes? They got butchered now but they are still great,old insta heals?? Yep, they were a lot of fun to play against, old BNP? Yeah no, running and recovering exhaustion? Fair as hell especially with vigil and SB, old DS? I think it is better now than before (I only used it once before the nerf since I was a scared cat player), vaccums? Hell no.
Currently I don't think the devs are biased as much as they were before but some nerfs aren't really called for.
Waiting for your answer Azame since I know you can actually have a great discussion without going to insults and that.
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Im pretty sure they are trying their best.
Majority of players complaining about DS for a year now and they do nothing though.
Maybe just another case of "keep your workers, don't exchange them".
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They're on the side of making money so they have to find a delicate balance for both sides so that both sides can have fun. People whine about nerfs in one area but are quick to forget about buffs in others.
For example, some killers like Nurse, Spirit, and Billy got nerfed but they are still top tier killers. Legion was gutted but for good reason and will probably be overhauled in the near future. On the other hand, Freddy, Bubba, and Doctor got some FAT buffs.
Endgame collapse is largely in favor of killers. Then we had the ruin nerf which benefited bad survivors. Map size, tiles, semi-infinites, pallets, and toolboxes were nerfed in killer's favor and survivors can no longer keep their addons after an escape unless they run Ace in the Hole.
On the other hand, killers like Trapper and Clown got some small buffs. Hex:Undying also gave rise to a new meta. They're also planning to have an early game phase as another objective for survivors to do.
Most people have to understand that they have to make killer the harder role because if it was too easy, there will be too many killers and there will be no ques. Hence, many more people will leave the game. When you do get to the point where you're very good as killer, you will win most of your matches as killer because there's such a huge pool of survivors and most of them solo que and do not play well.
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The devs (management and the balance team specifically) are sticking to one side.
They follow the money...
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Why do you think the devs arent at a 50 for survivors or atleast closer to it than you think. After everything that's happened I would say they are very close.
Alright so all the nerfs you mentioned were called for. However my problem stems from the fact that all of this is somehow forgotten when a killer gets nerfed. It feels like people think killers are immune to nerfs.
Some nerfs arent called for like the billy nerf. Now it's a bunch of m1llys every time hes played. The add on escape nerf that was uncalled for.
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So what facts do you have to support this. A 15 second nerf to a still strong perk?
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I mean, let's see:
-Latest update told us PGTW is being nerfed because the killer can do everything else and still have it.
-Survivors can do generators, heal the entire team, foster five grandchildren and still have DS up, yet it gets a pass on the nerf.
See why we think they're biased?
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Metrics based off of this nonsense matchmaking and pathetic rank reset is entirely pointless now. There would need to be a stable/balanced matchmaking and have it run for several months to get any kind of usable numbers. It’s going to take a while to filter out all the potatoes in red rank because of the terrible rank reset also.
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It takes time in order to change DS to satisfy all the killers. 45 seconds wont stop you from getting hit outside of tunneling. Did you ever think that a full rework takes 2 days or are you gonna continue to fall back on this bias argument?
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While I agree that matchmaking is terrible and that it does distort the result of metrics, directionally, metrics will still give you a high level understanding of how the games go.
Unbalanced matchmaking balances out over the course of millions of matches. The margin of error will be higher due to bad matchmaking but not to the point where you can't make informed decisions based off of the data.
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These devs have screwed up something fierce at times. My favorite examples being patch 1.9.2 and old MoM. Those moments made me question "WTH were you thinking?"
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they cant just reduce the time on ds because that wouldnt work they will have to do a pretty much full rework on it which is why it isnt out yet
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I honestly don't get it. Killer is easier now than its ever been. People complaining "its always killers getting nerfed" are just new and have no idea what this game used to be like
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Generally speaking I definately agree! It wouldn´t make sense to be that biased on so many levels....
Yet there is the odd occasion like the recent PoP change. The nerf itself was, well, unneeded but isn´t much of a nerf regardless, so who cares.
The justification though was baffling to say the least. You know why. Incidents like these feed the idea of the DEVs being biased, because it´s extremely hard not to think that they are with how this issue has been handled.
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Well first of to the topic I think the devs have sometime just no idea how stuff impacts in the game since I think they don't play dbd enough and on the right ranking. As an example I take the old occasion, I read a few days ago here, when a dev said old flashlights were fine and was instant blinded a dozen times in an exhibition match and shortly after came the nerf.
To the point of ds and rework time. Since many ask for deactivation conditions for a possible, ToT got new ones on the ptb. I am no coder but I think it shouldn't be too hard to take the used Codeline and fit them into ds. As an example, instead of "undetectable status on killer gets deactivated when survivor stops regress" make it "ds active status gets deactivated once survivor does X for Y amount of seconds".
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You do realise this forum is Killermain City, do you? So.. of course according to the majority here, the devs are all survivor mains who hate Killer and it does not matter what you say about that, it wont change.
I mean we had serious discussions here about which side they nerfed and buffed more in the last 12 months so...
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This has nothing to do with which side gets more or fewer nerfs. The issue is that a lot of the devs' reasoning for nerfing killer perks can be applied to survivor perks, yet the survivor perks aren't nerfed.
If you want an old example, DS was buffed to the current 5 seconds because Enduring affected it when it was just 3 seconds and made the stun too short. Enduring was later nerfed to only affect pallet stuns because the devs (rightfully) realized it was impossible to make a stun perk that wasn't too powerful without Enduring, but also wasn't worthless with Enduring. However, DS remained at 5 seconds, despite the devs outright stating that 5 seconds was too much when the killer didn't have Enduring and using that as a justification for nerfing Enduring.
Another example, NOED. It used to last forever, so survivors just GTFO while the killer sometimes got one extra kill. When survivors complained about the perk, it was nerfed to only last 2 minutes. However, that still wasn't enough, because it was "boring" to hide and wait out NOED, so the devs changed it again to become the only hex perk whose activation can be prevented outright. Survivors still complain because they don't want to cleanse totems, but I hope the devs are done nerfing it.
Now, I doubt the devs are intentionally biased toward survivors, but it's hard to look at their decisions without thinking that they're at least a little biased toward survivors.
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I highly doubt people will stop spewing nonsence about devs beiing biased to either side. It's been ages since any truly bad change/update. Pretty much everything they've been doing for a while has some amount of solid reasoning behind it.
I hope they keep up doing good updates and possibly get even a bit braver with some changes. I mean, I get why they don't want to make a hasty change to anything but for example this new perk update patch is rather underwhelming. I'd just love to see more brave changes, possibly even reworks then only a very small tweaks to numbers of perks.
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See this as good as the argument OP does complain about. Why do we have daily threads complaining about killer x,y,z with not a low frequency and also about camping, tunneling or moris? Is that the stuff you expect killer mains to complain about? I mean just checking the recent discussion page debunks your claim.
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Orion DS is gonna get a full scale rework I'd say let's forget about it for the time being. If you apply the reason pop was nerfed to DS it still wouldnt stop the complaints of getting but outside of tunneling. It isnt faith to compare the two.
On the topic of enduring and when DS got its first full scale rework. 3 second stuns arent short. The devs have also said things and gone back on their words. For example they claim they want no more exclusives yet have an event crown exclusive. You see they constantly go back on their word this is no different. Same thing can be said about legacy no more exclusive yet that remains locked. The 5 second stun is give survivors enough time to make it to another tile.
Your noed thing can be compared to DS currently. It's been nerfed multiple times due to killers complaints and hopefully it should be nerfed 1 last time.
I still find it hard to believe they are biased when they have been getting nerfed for 2 years straight. If they truly were some stuff would still be in the game.
Like I said before if you want to nerf tbe survivor perks they need to be actually like full scale reworked. They are different from killer perks and therefore shouldnt be treated the same unless they are bbq and wglf which are the same.
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Exactly but community backlash keeps them from doing anything bold in perk changes or overall game changes. I'd like to see more build variety but as it stands the camping and tunneling is insane. Had 2 games in a row on shelter woods where the killer got someone in the basement and just wouldnt leave.
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It definitely is way more killer sided but not as much as a few months ago
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I didn't even mention the current situation, both my examples are old. The Enduring one is the most egregious, IMO.
DS was nerfed multiple times, yes, but then all the nerfs were reversed, with the exception of the timer.
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The devs definitely dont play the game enough. I was watching a stream and one of the devs coldnt so proper moonwalks as killer. The insta blind nerf was right after Mathieu got violated live on stream.
I don't think it's a case of deactivation conditions I think its figuring out which ones they want. That's why the DS nerf(rework) hasnt came yet.
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You did mention how killer perms being changed could be applied to survivor perks and I gave a reason to why they can't using DS as an example.
You know have to be hooked. Which IMHO is the biggest nerf of them all. You could avoid hooks with old DS. This one you cant.
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I think it's fine
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Of course the number of killer mains here is lower now because Devs are pumping out nothing else but Killer buffs and surivivor nerfs since a long time. Only delusional killer mains would ever claim that the recent changes were survivor sided. Even SpaceCoconut is running out of ideas.
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I think its fine more survivor die than killer not getting kills
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This comment is the point of the post.
Let's look back in time at DBD. Back in the day survivors had like double the pallets including plenty of double pallet loops, they could recover exhaustion while sprinting, there were literal infinites on many maps, many maps were much larger than they are now, DS was always active instead of being tied to hooks, heal times were faster including bs like Self Care stacking with We'll Make It, there were insta-blind flashlights, BNPs would keep going for the entire gen until they were interrupted instead of just 25%, one and two-health-state instaheals existed, survivor add-ons were not lost at the end of the trial, coop gen speeds were faster, toolboxes were stronger, many killers were a whole lot weaker than they are now (Freddy, Bubba, Doc, etc.), etc.
The game used to be unbelievably survivor sided. It is much more balanced now.
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I see where you're coming from, but it's a pretty terrible take imo. They clearly aren't systematically favoring survivors and they likely will nerf DS again in the future (after all, they've already done it three times). It's pretty silly to accuse the devs of bias because they didn't nerf DS in the same exact patch they nerfed PGTW. They're not going to fix everything all at once.
The other thing that bothers me about this argument is that I've seen almost no one on the forums saying something along the lines of "This PGTW nerf is bad because I won't have enough time to use it now." It's almost entirely this entitled "Killers got nerfed so now you need to nerf survivor!" mentality.
I personally think that PGTW needed the nerf. I think it will still be the best killer perk in the game even with a 45 second timer. I also think that DS needs a nerf, and I look forward to Behaviour changing it in an upcoming patch. I see no evidence of bias here.
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Overall, I feel the devs have made a lot of good changes on both sides. However, as cynical as it sounds i think because survivors make up the majority of the community and thus revenue, it's unlikely the devs will do anything to annoy them too much in terms of changes. That's why swf will probably never come with a negative or be addressed for example.
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I don't even think the dev are bias for either side I do feel they do not know what they are doing sometime or what to do with out messing up a lot other stuff.
how I see it
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Killer has to chase each survivor 2 to 3 times through mainly survivor favorable maps full of pallets and various other tiles and loops. Killer has to watch the gens while chasing and hooking these survivors while dealing with their 16 perks. Killer can only chase 1 at a time so if they're not completely braindead and can run in circles the other 3 can work on the already too fast generators until all 5 are done. Coordinated teams are near impossible to beat and most teams have at least 2 that are on comms. That alone screws the killer in many ways. Any small nerfs the survivors get is well needed and it still wouldn't be enough for this game to truly be balanced. As long as you can hit a skillcheck, run from loop to loop and use your camera to watch the killer you can play survivor. Survivor is what I play when I wanna chill because there's nothing to it.
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