People who complain about DS are purely killer mains
It's ridiculous that the game is out for so long and you see the same topics on forum circling around from people who mainly play one role. I play both killer and survivor equally because that's the best way of learning the game.
- People need to experience the game themselves and not listen to some streamers who only play one role. Obviously you'll have hard time on both sides. There will be always something that will make your game harder. In my opinion POP wasn't really in the need for a nerf although I understand developers want to adjust the game for newer players. POP will stay in my builds regardless. It's a soft nerf and in my opinion neglectable.
- DS is there for a reason. People who played the game before when DS wasn't a thing know how frustrating it is to be camped & tunneled for performing well in the trial. Killer mains are saying that's 60 seconds of invincibility which is not true. By slugging you're applying pressure to the team and survivors are relying on numbers if they wanna win. Killing one survivor is giving the killer better chances of winning a trial. DS is fine the way it is. It's giving a survivor enough time to plan further actions and killer to get fair hooks/kills. DS was changed in the past (rightfully) and nerfing it more would only award camping and tunneling.
- The last chapter was killer friendly with UNDYING while they gave survivors beginner perks and that's totally fine. Not every chapter needs to be one sided. It's gonna force survivors to use maps, perks such as DISTORTION etc. Finally we will have some variety in builds.
Stop playing one role before crying about something!
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These forums are 80% killer mains.
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It seems like you do not even understand the issue that people have with DS. Also stop assuming that play who have the opinion that ds is not healthy and utter bs for the game just play one role.
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DS is good, but 60 seconds of invincibility are not. And for Invincibility, i mean doing a gen in front of the killer or doing an unsafe unhook with BT cause you know that, if you are picked up, you still have DS. Slugging is also not always an option, cause UB exist. And 90% of the survivor that use DS use even UB. If you really want a true anti-tunnel perk, it should deactivate when the hooked are fully healed, repair a gen, heal a teammate, search a chest or cleanse a totem. Or even when the killer hook another survivor (after you where rescued, not before). Cause, if you do any of this action, you are not tunneled. If they could change DS like this, even without timer (so it stay up until you do any action or the killer hook someone else), it will be still more fair than now.
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There are people who play both sides or just survivor who do not agree with DS, which is perfectly fine. Yes, DS used to be worse, but people still are allowed to feel a certain way about certain mechanics. It's also okay if you think DS should not be changed and you feel like it's okay. That's why opinions exist and are subjective.
I definitely understand why people would want it to be changed, especially due to it's perk synergy with things like Unbreakable, Adrenaline, etc. DS is a very useful perk, especially if combined with other specific perks.
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I second this. There certainly are a bunch of people that play both sides and do not fail to see how DS, especially when paired with UB/SG, is problematic. I won´t repeat the reasons again since by now everyone and their moms know about them. Either you agree or you don´t.
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I don't need to remind you that every killer is unique and you can make meta build for each one. Perfect example is The Spirt with Stridor. Definitely my go to killer against SWF in red ranks. 🖤
I needed to say something because I enjoy survivor as well. Developers will clearly keep an eye on what's discussed the most. I'm hoping my opinion will contribute to their decision about changing the perk (if they intend to change it). Just because it's viable doesn't mean it needs to go. We need anti tunneling perk that will punish scummy plays.
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Survivor main here, DS needs to become an anti-tunnel perk instead of an anti-momentum perk. It's not reasonable that you can be unhooked, heal, work on gens, etc., and the killer gets stunned because they downed you "too soon".
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If u play both roles u know Ds need neft to be a anti-tunnel perk only. No a 60 seg of god mod. Same way go to undying. The game need balance no a patch for killers next one to survivivors. Yes in the forum are killer and survivivor main how wanna neft to the floor the other side.
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I was playing when the old DS was used every game. I always remember the juggling you had to do.
This one still isn't balanced though. Yes it's better than the old one but it's still broken in some ways.
Here's why people complain:
- Hooked near exit door is a free escape.
- Hook someone, then hook 1 or 2 survivors and then getting hit with 59 second DS.
- Survivors can just work on gens in your face then jump into lockers. You either camp the gen/locker or leave. Either option is bad.
- Unbreakable + DS combo is pretty dumb.
It needs to be balanced a lot better. I created a discussion a week ago on what I'd personally do to fix DS since I feel like it does need changed.
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Great summary! I´d like to add that "near exit door" means closer than 33 seconds worth of Survivor running time, since this is the time the Killer needs to catch up at 115% MS ( 5 second stun = 20 meter head start(5x4m/s). 4.6m/s(115%) Killer gains 0,6m/s. 20/0.6=33.33).
On almost every map you´d have to be hooked as far as possible from an open exit gate for most Killers to have a slight chance of catching the survivor before they escape.
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I have seen more survivor mains complain about ds than killer mains lmao.
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Hello, I play 50/50.
I never run DS, I'm sick of seeing multiple of it every game, I'm sick of teammates doing stupid ######### in front of the killer just so they can show off that they're running it.
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Play a killer:
Get an end game DS and see if you still think it is fair.
Get another survivor down and hook them to then be saved by a guy with DS and hit by that.
Get a guy down and they sit at the generators or heal up and be in your face for a full minute without you being able to hook them.
Most people don't suggest removing DS, but it is to be a perk to allow yourself to get to safety and counter a tunnel. If you start doing a generator, totem or you healed up... then you decided that you are safe enough from the grasps of the killer.
Also once the end gate is opened, it should deactivate as well as it is now it just gives you a free escape and the fact that it wasn't triggered all game is a good indicator that you weren't tunneled.
In its current form it gives the survivors free reign for 60 seconds to do as they please. Instead of a tool to reset to a spot you feel comfortable contributing to the objectives. It provides to much control to the survivors and makes it that they do not have to fear them regardless of what they do.
Post edited by Kalinikta on1 -
I just got DS to play with. It is fun and neccesarry. But i also know how hard people abuse it. Just yesterday i played hag with (presumably) swf team and got one DS after another. No crouching on hook, just ran into my traps. The guy who get's unhooked then saves his savior and i get DS time and time again 4 times at one hook. In the end i hooked all of them twice but no kill + teabagging at the gates. This is just trolling and abuse.
At the same time, i also had a lot of normal matches where i went after the easyest target and got DS for it. When this is the case i kinda know it's deserved. I guess this is why this perk exists. But when 4 people run it as a strat, it's just bullshit.
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The extra difficulty for killers doesn't come from a single perk. It comes from groups (SWF) who abuse mechanics.
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I didn't even mean that tbh but that's also true. I meant getting unhooked near the door so you can literally sprint at the door with your head in the air knowing your escaping. The killer will down you and you'll either crawl out or you'll hit DS while on the exit line.
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this guys they are crying about ds and bt, are those tunneling so hard, look this guy BT give 15sec protection for this guy come from unhook what they realy say and wannt is "why they have protection with ds and bt ? i wannt tunnel him, and he cant then do anything !" when i play killer and tunnel 1 person because the location is there, then i never cry "ahhh why bt ? why ds ? i smile and thing noooo wasnt good from my side, my killer performence itsn good in the time... xD but this guys crying so hard everytime, dude DONT TUNNEL ! WHEN YOU TUNNEL DONT CRY !
look ds bofore its was nerfing, its was evetime useable, i play dbd now 2 years, and ds was when you pick someone up, you could at ANY TIME for picking up surviver and they can stun you for 3/4/5sec, and crying about it, but far far fewer people have cryed over ds... but now its so funny they crying about it because they cant tunnel ? tzz xD
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DS needs a nerf. My friends that are survivor mains completely agree. Its a 100% free get out of jail card.
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Play vastly more Survivor due to playing with irl friends and Killer not letting me do so while progressing - so I would be considered a Survivor main. DS's problem is its duration of invincibility and the fact that it does not stop working if you stop being tunneled - despite being designed as an anti-tunnel perk. You shouldn't get 60 seconds to heal, work on generators, hide in lockers, break totems, and still get to stun the Killer just because he comes across you again and downs you in that time span. That's literally just the problem people have with it - turn it off if you get 'safe' from a chase or tunneling situation again and the threads will stop. Also, this excuse I keep seeing the mods throw around that "DS was worse than it is now" like that excuses it being in a problematic spot now is just silly - just because something was worse at one point does not automatically mean that the perk doesn't need additional changes; or does that only apply to Survivor perks while you have killers like Pyramid Head that have been nerfed twice already in its relatively short existence?
Secondly, it is no different than Survivor mains currently creating thread after thread about Undying because it is forcing them to have to use maps or anti-totem perks and play more cautiously than they want to - take time away from their trolling or stream memeing, stop fixing generators to look for totems and watch their backs while doing so, etc. These players don't want to have to give up crutch builds in order to do that and so they want Undying nerfed to not impact the meta as much as it is.
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couldn't say it any better.
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Thank you sensei lol
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The fact that you mention two unrelated topics reeks strongly of what-aboutism. The problem with DS is:
- It isn't an anti-tunelling perk in its use. Survivors take advantage of it by doing things like working in generators, and if M1 killers come back to stop them, they hop in a locker. So a killer can't stop them from working on a gen, because they cannot pull them out of a locker with DS.
- SWFs who will run the same skin so the killer has a harder time figuring out which one to chase/which one was hooked.
- If you down multiple survivors, punishing them for a mistake as a killer should, you are still treated as tunneling despite having downed more than one survivor.
- A full minute of time is a massive amount of time for the killer to not be able to hook a downed survivor, since a downed survivor takes only .5 seconds to heal after 20 seconds.
- Killers have to treat every survivor as if they have it, so it is effectively a free perk for people who do not run it.
- It still effects people in the end game, where securing a kill is the only possible objective.
- There is no way to disable it short of waiting the one minute. It is the gameplay equivalent of camping a hook. One minute of wasted time with no gameplay. At least with camping, there are counters. With DS, there is no counter. You just have to sit there and do nothing.
- It can be combined with a lot of other 'second chance' perks for extremely extended comboing.
DS is a BADLY designed perk. To work better, it should not work if grabbed in any way, it should stop working after all gens are complete, it should stop working if another survivor is hooked before you are, and it should not work if you are the last survivor for any reason. This wouldn't fix all of its issues, but it would remove a lot of the 'no gameplay' aspects of it.
Or hell, just make it so that second chance perks worked like exhaustion perks, and you were considered 'Out of Luck' after using one.
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Good example in my last game: They unhooked in the basement while I was chasing someone nearby. Went to down the person then chase the unhooker. What did they do? Jumped in a locker. They even called DS an Anti-slugging perk, not even an anti-tunneling perk. It is a single perk that is everything, with no possible counter play from the killer except have no pressure for a minute.
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Depending on mood: 60-70% survivor player here. DS sucks.
I use it as anti tunnel perk and almost never get value out of it because killers slug me or re-down me until DS runs out when I'm tunneled or I don't eveen get tunneled. As killer, I don't tunnel on purpose, just get hit by it anyway because people use it agressively on me and I don't have hourglasses for each survivor to keep track of DS.
Sucks on both sides, imo it does not serve the purpose that was formulated. Others said it already. It can work as anti tunnel perk if the killer is simply mindless about it, otherwise, when it triggers, it normally works as anti momentum perk
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on point 3 "either option is bad", that would be a so called lose/lose, which was the argumentation to change a medium popular perk like Thana, right?
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Yea basically. Though I will say trying to change a perk like thanatraphobia is a lot easier than changing DS. I wish they upped the percentage to 6% then it wouldn't have been that bad.
Problem is thanatraphobia isn't the best gen slowdown or heal slowdown perk. The killers that used thana (Legion and Plague) will probably still use this one.
Whereas DS is basically the only anti-tunnelling perk. BT helps but that's only for a short bit of time. The devs need to thread very carefully when they consider changing DS.
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ive played both sides and still hate ds and think it needs a nerf
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I think there were pretty good suggestions on the forum already, how to make it less of an anti momentum perk and more effective against tunneling, like pausing the timer in chase/slug or deactivating when you put yourself back into the game with certain actions.
Thana is a different topic. But just to catch the thought: dont forget about Forever Freddy. I don't know the actual numbers, but having such a high slowdown on a single source brings Thana pretty close to old FF. And think about the additional slowdown that Freddy and other addons can put on top. I think Forever Freddy might be a bit worse now again
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I had a suggestion for changing DS a week ago though I don't think anyone saw it. It changed the perk a lot and I needed to make changes to the game for it to work but I felt it did fix a lot of the current problems with DS.
This is why I didn't want the thanatraphobia slowdown to be no higher than 6%. People wanted it to be increased to 8% which I felt coupled with killers like Freddy and perks like Dying Light would be horrible. Never remind me of forever Freddy again lol
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Decisive is easy to fix, but Survivors don't want it "fixed", they want it to remain a universal anti-Killer perk.
Trigger on unhook, lasts up to 60 seconds. Killer can down you and this timer will still tick down while down. The perk should not be changed to where it also anti-slugging, when that is one of the only ways a Killer has to fight back against it; but I've seen so many people try to suggest this because "they just slug me and I never get to use DS". That's the point and it is because DS is so powerful we would rather just leave you to bleed out for 60 seconds than deal with it.
The changes to fix it are simple:
Decisive should disable itself when the Survivor - hops inside a locker; heals a health state; begins repairing a generator; starts cleansing a totem; or begins unlocking a chest. All of these actions should disable Decisive. The perk is meant to only be used if you are chased and downed again in a span of time; and apart from lockers, any of the other listed actions are clear enough that you are not being "tunneled" anymore if you have time to engage in them. Lockers need to go simply because it can be abused to just sit in the locker where the Killer cannot touch you because it triggers DS.
The duration should be much shorter - 30 seconds max. Not only does this shorten the time a killer needs to chase or avoid you; but it also shortens the time you are left slugged if the Killer manages to down you and decides it isn't worth eating the stun.
In compensation because it is now truly anti-tunneling, Decisive should stun slightly longer and give the Survivor a temporary Sprint Burst effect for a few seconds that does not trigger/ignores Exhaustion - but does not stack with using Sprint Burst perk with Decisive; as well as hide scratch marks for that same duration. This way Survivors can actually put distance and potentially get out of the tunneling situation during that stun. This does not stop a Killer from slugging you to avoid DS altogether - because that is a viable counterplay.
Again, these changes will never happen because the Survivors that use the perk do not want it to be anti-tunneling. They want it to remain the all-scenario anti-Killer go-to that it is now, that gives them a ridiculous 60 seconds to do whatever they feel like doing without having to worry about the Killer being able to down and hook them without eating a stun.
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Just had another great example of how broken DS can be: I literally hooked someone across the map from the person who was unhooked, the unhooked person was doing the door, got it open just as I got there, I got them downed, but DS, even though I had hooked someone ACROSS THE MAP since he had been unhooked. 'Anti-tunneling'. Gets to escape because of it. No killer counterplay, because if I did nothing, he crawls out anyway.
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Michael's Tombstone is a problem too. But that doesn't excuse Decisive not needing a fix just because you and other players want to be able to have a 'safety net' while doing your objective - from a perk that should not be a catch-all anti-Killer perk and should only be anti-tunneling. Skill checks are not adequate enough "downsides" - Survivors should not be able to work on generators or anything else just because they have an ungodly time window of 'I'll stun you if you pick me up and I hit a skill check' . It should be a use it or lose it perk - no "holding onto it" while you repair a generator or do some totems; no hopping into a locker mid-chase because it will automatically trigger your DS if you're pulled out of it.
It is not unreasonable to expect Survivors to stop using 1 perk as a safety net instead of only using it for its original intended purpose: tunneling. And like it or not - if you have time to do a totem or repair a generator, you are no longer being tunneled and therefore no longer need the safety net to be active on you.
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I mentioned a few others; it should not be enabled after another survivor gets hooked, after gens are complete, nor should it function if you are the last survivor alive. It is particularly bad when they manage to open the exit gate, get downed, and I just have to let them crawl to safety, because, hey. Can't pick them up, can't stop them from crawling. With the exit gates on such a short timer, this happens a lot. Additionally, you cannot call it tunneling if a killer managed to hook someone else inbetween.
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Says the guy who thinks Myers is OP.
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In that second scenario - no, the unhooked Survivor should have moved out of the area and not tried to 'hop on' the generator right in front of them just because it wasn't touch. They made the decision to push their objective too soon and that is on them - DS should still disable because they chose that it was 'safe enough' to do their objective right near the hook they were on.
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Firstly I will say survivors don't mind it getting changed but I think they'd rather other things changed first (keys/moris). Also I'd say they are worried that DS will be destroyed.
Here's the problems I have with it though:
- Locker + DS is the only real counter to a mori. I don't want this removed till moris are changed.
- The only way a survivor will get any value out of this DS is if they get downed extremely quick. Killers can tunnel extremely easily if the survivor doesn't go down in 30 seconds which they shouldn't.
- Still doesn't solve the problem that if you hit DS, the killer can now get a free tunnel to death.
- Unbreakable + DS combo still there.
- Your increased stun timer can still be abused. A swf player who has DS can still force a grab at the hook and use their DS.
- Getting unhooked near the exit door is still a free escape.
You've fixed a problem but created 1/2 more. Sorry but this is another DS idea that isn't good mate.
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This didn't create problems that didn't already exist - no new problems came from this. The normal stun is abused - but rather than go off and list unhooking a survivor disables Decisive also, I left it at the major non-tunneling actions (unhooking in a killer's face mid-chase is still technically while you're being tunneled or focused on). The increased stun coupled with the SB effect solves a lot of the issues -- and no, it doesn't stop DS from being an escape when the doors are open; that one was iffy but I suppose the suggestion that Decisive become disabled once an Exit Gate opens would solve that problem. If it's a real "problem" then add performing/starting an unhooking action; and once Exit Gate is opened to the list of disabling conditions.
Once again --- changing one item should not be "well what about X" as an excuse not to do it. Change Decisive; then worry about changing moris. The problem is locker-ds doesn't just interfere with mori's it basically gives you 100% shielding while your timer is active, when it shouldn't. Yes, Mori's are a problem - but stop trying to say other things should not be changed just because X problem exists. Fix one, then fix the other and don't use them as conditions to fixing one another.
And Unbreakable DS is not a 'problem' if you treat the "heals a health state" as healing any health states -- healing from dying to injured is healing a health state and under the suggested fixes, it would disable Decisive if they used Unbreakable to counter being slugged for the duration.
And the "only value being a quick downing" -- that's the point. It's not supposed to be a safety net you carry with you for a full minute while doing your objective. It's supposed to stop you from being downed quickly after being unhooked; and if you're being tunneled for 30 seconds - odds are they would tunnel and or slug you for the remainder of the duration in the first place so a 60 second duration is still pointless in that scenario. This remark highlights the problem with Decisive -- Survivors are too used to having it as a safety blanket that keeps working long after they've been unhooked or are not being chased anymore. They're used to having it while they run somewhere to heal and then using it as a protection so they can run to the killer's face or attempt an unhook because "oh I still got my DS" - when that is not what the perk should have ever evolved into. It is an anti-tunneling perk and should only be for anti-tunneling, not whatever the hell Survivors feel like using it for, for 60 seconds.
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When it comes to unhooking/exit doors yes add that to your conditions.
The thing about moris is unfortunately lockers + DS are the only counters to it. I'd be more than happy after moris are changed to change DS again but not till then. If you want an anti-tunnelling perk this is literally where it's needed.
The DS + Unbreakable thing isn't fixed by your health state thing. When you down a recently unhooked survivor you have a few choices:
- Pick them up and risk DS.
- Slug them, go somewhere else and risk Unbreakable.
- Stand over them till DS timer ends. Other 3 survivors rush gens and escape.
Your health state thing fixes none of this. Faced a 3 man team all running Unbreakable + DS yesterday. Telling you right now your suggestion doesn't fix this lol
The "this remark highlights" part made me laugh. Most of the points I made earlier were how you didn't fix the broken parts of DS. I'm telling you to add conditions to stop survivors unhooking in your face and getting a free escape (you highlighted the fixes to my point in bold in case you forgotten) yet your implying all I want is my "safety blanket" 😂 you say you want an anti-tunnelling perk yet the only people this perk would work with is baby survivors who get downed in 30 seconds after unhook and get immediately picked up.
Sorry I can't agree with someone who doesn't properly fix DS. Your making it easier to tunnel while still keeping the stuff that makes it easy to abuse. The slight buff you gave it with the stun and sprint is pretty much useless since it should never be used. Only a baby killer would ever get hit by DS.
Think you've basically showed your true intentions with your DS change. Don't think I need to say anymore. If you want the last word you can have it unopposed 😁.
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DS does not act like an anti tunnel perk. It has the foundation (being unhooked requirement), killers who know what they are doing can try to circumvent this. I say try, because locker ds still exists for some reason. There are still ways to abuse it because it is not a well balanced perk.
@arcnkd is correct about this. It is why a lot of survivors were worried about PH when his power was announced, because it was a circumvention to DS. A completely healthy addition, because perks should not be 100% reliable. Pop is not 100% reliable, yet it gets nerfed and DS does not. But dev bias is for another day.
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I feel like they should make DS infinite when in a chase but as soon as you work on a gen or get healed to disable it because that's the definition of an antitunnel perk. It's supposed to help you not get tunneled yet killers can just knock you down and wait the 60 seconds. Yeah this is where the DS/UB problem comes up, it gives immunity for bad plays. If they really want to make DS an antitunnel perk they should make changes to it where it doesn't go down if you're in a chase or slugged on the floor
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