So let's talk about SWF
Swf is probably the reason I quit playing killer. It makes the game not fun, having everyone know about your location constantly. I previously read on here that they could lock specific perk slots till a certain amount of those Swf are dead. For instance
If you have a full group of friends you'll be locked to one perk. For every death it unlocks a perk slot. Of course you can choose what perks you have unlocked and what perks get unlocked via teammate death.
If you have 3 friends you'll start the trial with 2 perks and so forth.
I feel like this would solve problems of Swf. I'm down to see this added to the game
Comments
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Interesting proposal.
I’m down for almost anything, atm
Anymore, I wish we could go back and play this game in the earlier stages of its release.
EDIT:
down for “ALMOST” anything
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I'm on the same page!! I see all these old videos of the game and it feels so much better than the current version tbh
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Being forced to play with only 1 perk because of friends would make the game monotone. You wouldn't be able to play any builds which is the only thing that keeps survivor gameplay interesting.
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But that's the point. The more friends you have in your lobby the less perks you have because basically your friends are your perks. They can tell you and you can tell them when the killer leaves them, camping them, which gen they're kicking and basically where they're going. So you'll either be playing for builds or with friends
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I can say from playing survivor all this time that this is true. Maybe there could be alternative ways to pip? So that killers don't have to slug/tunnel for the 4k. I just play this game for fun but most killers take this seriously and it's concerning
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The only way to fix SWF is to balance Killers like every survivor is using comms.
Most suggestions to balance SWF usually points to punishing the players for wanting to play with their friends. Why should the players ever be punished for playing with their friends?
Sucks for solo but if the put in integrated comms and then balance the Killers around SWF, it would be much less of a problem.
Thing is, though, the devs refuse to ever comment on this issue so we'll probably never see anything to balance it.
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The thing is they don't want to add comms because every game would basically be a Swf group. They'll either have to buff killers to adjust to facing Swf groups or put something to nerf survivors that play with friends
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Yeah. The devs stance is always "we have no control on whether the players use outside programs for voice comms". They know how strong voice comms is and how much they'd have to change(perks, debuffs, balancing, etc.) but they don't want to alienate their swf player base so they continue to dance around the subject despite people complaining about it for years.
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Yeah that's the sad part. Instead of nerfing perks they should add something to their lobbies to recognize which players are playing with friends and which are playing solo. I feel like this would help most killers that have a difficult time with Swf at least just a little bit
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That could work for a while but Swf issues will still be there no matter what they do till they address it
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Or, better yet, just buff solo and killers.
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True. Who knows when that will happen though
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A lot of people are having problems with Swf. Might as well bring it back up so the devs can finally fix it or buff solo players and killers.
They could also make a little tweak to how killers and survivors get bloodpoints/pip. Maybe give them some different objectives that rewards more bloodpoints then usual
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Git gud is the correct answer. Asking developers to nerf down their game is the wrong answer.
LetsPlayTogether is giving off a poor attitude for discussion but I agree with his sentiment.
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I not specifically asking them to nerf their own game. Just giving suggestions for a better gameplay experience. Instead of survivors rushing through gens why not give them a little obstacle that slows the game down 'just a little bit' maybe taking what King mentioned in one of his videos, putting switches on the map that have to be flipped in order for survivors to work on specific gens and maybe when they flip that switch the killer gets notified of that switch. But it's just suggestions nothing to get bent over like LetsPlayTogether was
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That idea with the switches sounds interesting. Like a tiny 2nd objective. Anyone have a link to the clip of King? I don't usually watch his content.
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I think the best way to nerf swf is to not actually nerf swf, because nobody should be punished for playing with friends.
Give us an actual MMR system, so good solo players can win, and a totem counter. Now, we balance the game around how strong swf is, and buff killers accordingly, we should also nerf the perk OoO, so survivors don't get so much free info.
We can also give killers double bloodpoints when playing against swf.
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He starts talking about the switched around 4:10 so if you want to skip to that part and I feel like this would be wonderful at slowing the gens down
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Now this is what I'm talking about. It rewards killers when playing against Swf. I would actually love to see this implemented into the game and seeing how it would work out.
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It's pretty much a win for everyone as well, since swf isn't actually getting nerfed, and solo is getting buffed.
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Very true. Hopefully they'll see this suggestion and try it out
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They need to fix this boosting nonsense. I can't hang with red ranks thus I'm not a red rank. But they wanna team with someone rank 20 and sandbag the match and save them all game. So now I barely get blood points unless I camp the crap out them, which I'm doing every match now and getting 30k because like roaches they show up to save and go on hook. Just sucks because I can't play normal or for fun, I gotta camp some sweaty.
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Agreed. Ban voice communication.
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The devs can't really control if players use a different app for voice communication and would be silly if they started banning people over it
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DUDE you do NOT want that LOL. If you think this game was any better for killers in 2016 I have some bad news for you lol.
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While I understand going against SWF groups can often be frustrating, there is a reason people prefer to play together, and SWF is so common. Instead of the changes you offer, I think the developers need to make solo play more enjoyable and start discouraging disconnections and suiciding on the hook. The number of disconnections and people killing themselves on the hook is very high right now, and players want to play as part of a group to have an enjoyable match.
I played three matches tonight, and it was enough to make me take a break from playing survivor. One match had a teammate who worked with the killer and another teammate who disconnected. In the next game, two teammates disconnected after being downed for the first time. The final match was against a killer who face-camped people in the basement, and my teammates died trying to get the person rather than working on gens. None of these experiences were enjoyable and describe the kind of issues that solo survivors face frequently. It is often not fun to play as a solo survivor, so people play as part of a group.
I'm not saying that going against a four-person SWF group is fun, but there is a reason people play as part of these groups, and I don't think it is fair to punish them just for playing together. The developers need to make people want to play solo survivor by offering more incentives and fixing the issues I mentioned above.
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I had one game where there was 3 survivors who farmed each other off the hook constantly while I was the only one doing gens and the moment they all got downed they all disconnected and the killer ended up finding hatch and I got the good ol noed. Even though I know they might not be doing that intently I just don't enjoy play survivor at all. I don't find playing against these teams enjoyable either. Once I finished the Tome and the Rift I dropped the game and probably won't play it until the next Tome comes out. Playing either side is just really not enjoyable and I understand why they would team up and play together but what us killers who just want to play the game. Not have our location constantly told to other survivors all the time.
Something needs to be done about this
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Yeah, I understand that
It’s moreso to enjoy the game before it became such a competitive onslaught spiraling into a breeding ground for toxicity. A free from coms, semi-decent, fun environment.
I actually think it would be an event in itself to watch the upper most echelon (like the top of the top tier) killer players of 2020 going against 2020 non-SWF survivors in those conditions and environments with those 2016 perks... maybe even bare bones.
Be cool to try out some of the god loops as a survivor too. Never really got to enjoy that.
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Most laws and rules don't actually control or stop people from doing anything. They set a standard of conduct, and punish the people they do catch. The developers should wake up to the fact its a cheating level advantage and finally declare it cheating isn't of just saying "nah all good."
At the bare minimum they could announce "hey guy you shouldn't do that anymore because it really does ruin this game, and we refuse to just include it in the base game and just balance around it," and at least there won't be so much of it and not out in the open as acceptable. Even many of the players who do still keep abusing VC wouldn't bust it out as heavily since that tends to be how cheating works mentally and most would face some self recognition of being scummy as hell.
I mean for ######### sake if its even close to balanced then they'd at least let solo players type messages to each other in-game. Solutions don't need to be perfect, just better. And, ideally, you go for the best feasibly alternative. It'd help if they punish people too, but they only need to punish the people they know for sure. So basically anyone dumb enough to upload video of themselves doing it.
So many people pretend that this game would die out if that happened, but that's just more bullshit taking credit it for all the natural growth of such an inherently awesome idea and (can be) an incredibly fun game that's grown and developed over the years. They lump in every stream and tube and new player that plays as if inherent & inseparable from sharing information when most of that stuff isn't "wow look at this team!" in the first damn place.
It's the killer side they're constantly (and creatively) trying to boost up and prevent from fleeing the game already or switching exclusively to survivor. Almost every major complaint and issue with the game roots back (in some form or another) to randomly switching between matches where players sometimes have perfect communication and sometimes they don't, in game that's designed and balanced around the idea that they don't.
(Thank you all for reading. This has been my daily VC rant, see my post history for much, much more)
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
SWF are strong but comms barely mean anything in the majority of SWF matches. And if you're really having trouble against survivors several shortcuts and helping hands exist in the form of mori offerings and meta killer/perk/add-on combinations to help you. Not to mention plenty of killer guides and killer players that are pretty good at the game and have made helpful guides for new and experienced players. Scott and otz probably being the two most well-known examples.
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What do you mean by comms barely mean anything? They give you information perks for free which means you have perk slots left to bring whatever the heck you want to further increase their advantage. As a solo, I bring atleast 2-3 information perks which I won't need if I play with my friends.
Add-ons easily make up for the items the survivors can bring and keys for moris. So what makes up for a SWF?
Why do you think that the killer should go and study guides to play against SWF? We play for fun, not as a college course.
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They barely mean anything because comms are rarely the deciding factors of a match.
And I never said they need to "study" a guide, but if you want to improve at a multiplayer game and play against good players you're gonna need to learn how to actually play the game, and watching people who are better than you is the easiest and best method...I really didn't think I'd have to explain that. And if you play for fun why would you care about wanting to beat a SWF squad?
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I disagree. Information is key in a game like dbd. The squad can tell where they are working on gens and the person in chase can make sure that he doesn't take the killer there. The squad can tell who's coming for the save so the remaining can work on gens. The squad can tell where the stealth killer is or which direction he's headed to so the survivors can brace themselves and go near a loop. The squad can tell where hag and trapper's traps are and not take that loop. The squad can tell which pallets are fake and which arent in the case of freddy. The injured person can ask his squad where they are so he can get quick heals. The squad can coordinate a key escape because if one person finds out where the hatch is, he will relay the information to every other survivor in the game. The squad can orchestrate a head on stun by telling the others which locker he is in. The squad can bodyblock an exposed survivor because he will tell the others that he's exposed. The squad can easily plan and coordinate an end game save.
I can keep going on and on. These are just the advantages you get from voice comms and I haven't included the advantages they get because they are SWF (Voice comms is one of them though). The advantages they get are small but several and they add up to give them a massive advantage. Oh, and object of obsession. Self explanatory. You really underestimate the power of information in DBD. The effect of one small event is magnified to the point where it decides which team wins the game.
I don't think SWF should be removed. They can have fun, but not at the killer's expense. Which means something should be given to the killers to compensate for their ability to communicate.
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I've been playing rabidly for a month now, with randos only, Killer and Survivor both but favoring Killer because Killer fun, and can say this:
--The best-scoring matches I have are with people who play the game like it is tag.
It's been a lot of data, most matches are honestly great but I had one night in particular where 4-5 games had a ragequit each, followed by a *double ragequit*, and it was frustrating for everyone involved. I also have been camped few times, which was frustrating for everyone involved--including, although they didn't realize it, the camper, because everyone soft-ragequit by letting them just hook them and *everyone got low BP as a result*.
I know I'm coming from outside of the community, but since I am coming, objectively, from outside of the community: The problem isn't on the Killer or the Survivors. It's on the fact that the game *just plays better* when everyone knows there's some room to make mistakes, because mistakes are *rewarded by the game*. Every hook, BP for everyone. Every hook release, BP for everyone. Healing is BP. Knockdowns are BP. And somewhere in there, holy #########, you're playing a game that's really fun, and something in the brain flips over to "wow, this is a great match" and everyone gets on their A game. No ragequits, long Chases, awesome replays, memorable matches.
And since everyone is playing their best, no one can say the rank drops aren't fair.
All I can do, personally, is try to play my best game, and I do. I don't camp, I try to get into the head of the individual Killer and play in a way that'd be canonical to them and fun to play against (ex: The Pig will slug characters, Trap them, and then let them wriggle free, because Saw is about fairness, but also because there is nothing more fun than chasing 4 Trapped survivors around the Jigsaw boxes, that's the fun part of the Pig), I do my best to support my team, including letting the Entity claim me if I screw the pooch and a rescue would jeopardize them.
If it's not a tournament, if you're not aiming for top Rank or for a prize, and you're not having fun, then what on earth is even the point?
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
This idea wouldn't work for a few reasons. Here's some of them:
- Punishing bad swf teams
- Creative builds are now dead
- Swf teams can still beat many killers without perks
- Doesn't help with "gen rush"
- Making camping and tunnelling easier for killer
Feel like I'm missing a decent few but these are the only ones I could think of in 5 minutes.
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What planet are you on lol? Watch some pro tournaments... It PROVES SWF is OP Against even the best killers. Or should those 5k 6k hour pro players "learn to play correctly"? You're hilariously biased, entitled and WRONG given any actual facts.
Please teach us the one and only proper way oh great and knowledgeable one.
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I'm still waiting for an Swf-Indicator during Lobby times.
Swf gives nearly every Aura reading perk for free and decreases the space a Killer can create if everything he does gets called out ( trap in grass, totem here etc.). There needs to be something to balance this without destroying the ability to play with friends.
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THANK YOU. At least some people on here actually understand the frustration of going against a Swf team
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At this point I really would like the idea of the dev team enabling in-game comms. Trying to balance around solo a game that most people play with friends is a really bad choice in my opinion. There's probably enough stats showing that SWF became the usual way of playing, especially after the release of cross-play.
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You ain't the sharpest tool in the shed
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Not every SWF is a tournament-level team. Not every SWF knows the maps inside out. The vast majority of SWF groups are just friends playing together for fun.
But sure, let's punish them for wanting to enjoy a videogame together.
Yeah, it's frustrating when you run into good SWF groups, but at the same time, you could run into 4 really good randoms and still have the same result. If there was a way to tell if survivors were in a group together, I feel like a lot of people who complain about SWF will have their eyes opened to the simple fact that they're not always facing god-tier SWFs!
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Ahh yes because clearly you forget how ######### solo is and playing with friends makes the game fun. Not every swf is good. Coms doesnt make them better you sound like a bad killer. I was gonna be sympathetic but your replies here are just weird to me.
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The only times VC "doesn't mean anything" are matches where the skill levels are inherently unbalanced, and you're facing a team who you would always stomp in normal gameplay. Even casual VC is a crazy huge difference when this game does not take the changes into consideration or balance in any meaningful ways. No, it doesn't make individual players better at looping, or hiding, or skill checks--the benefits massively exceed that something far beyond that which dramatically shifts the gameplay to a different beast entirely.
The impact of being able to just say "hey I saw the NOED totem!" while being dragged to a hook is HUGE! Just in the early game something like "hey there's a trap right there" during a rescue could be the pivotal moment that ends up shifting a 0K to a 4K in a match that's actually balanced with how essential that early game is and the sort of momentum that can snowball from downing the savior and pulling the other 2 off the gens. Even the simplicity of "hey there's no traps around" is a huge boon when that 10 seconds of caution per occurrence is something that rivals the benefits of some time-waster perks.
VC is like everyone has the obsession skull marking where they know if you're in a chase, but obviously better because that means being able to rely information as it happens, heads there direction, or if its really over vs evaded temporarily.
VC is like everyone having kindred, but better obviously because you don't need to ever wait and see who's gonna stay and who will go for the rescue.
VC makes every killer into a plague or pig where everyone sees who they're up against as soon as one of them does and it eliminates those other few chances of catching someone off guard when early game is the most critical time for killers to start putting on pressure.
VC lets everyone know everything as soon as one player does and pool knowledge/experiences to determine your perks together.
VC is like everyone has distraction except instead of 20/30/40 meters they can orchestrate it across the map with the cooldown based only on however many second of the other player's time it takes.
VC adds a long range spine-chill where you get to know if the killer is coming from the other side of the map as long as someone else sees them pivot directions.
VC is a dulled version of the map marker where you can use any recognizable spot for meeting or decide whose going to which exit gate.
VC changes the whole dynamic towards optimization and compartmentalization where "the team" ends up being as strong as its strongest player instead of its weakest. Hell, it's the difference between being a "team" at all versus the asymmetrical gameplay of killer versus survivors who benefit from (but not beholden to) mutually beneficial cooperation. The whole idea of the survivor side is "survivor together... or alone" and creates that risk/reward of altruism and cooperation.
The list goes on and on... and, again, that's just casually. That's NOTHING if accounting for the game modifiers that come when skilled players are determined to bust this games wide open and start exploiting things like object of obsession. Any match balanced when the players don't have communication cannot also be balanced if those players had the benefit of communication. Period. One is balanced or the other. Never both.
I think anyone who (sincerely) says they "prefer the challenge" is mistaking the meaningful variable. It's really that the ranking system is so out of whack (and that's no surprise) they would've been paired with players below their performance level anyhow in that match. It's not "the challenge" of voice communication that's enjoyable sometimes. It's just that it changes things up with random cheats/debuffs that make bad "teams" they'd face decent. If you take any balanced/reasonable match-up and suddenly go from no communication to complete communication then the difference of voice communication means an opponent (ie, the teem in total, not each individual) can shift from good to damn near godly.
GitGud isn't the issue. Never has been, never will be. The issue is that "Dead By Daylight" offers 2 incredibly different games, but when you play killer you don't actually get a choice whether you'll play the fun one or not. You don't even get to know which one you're playing for sure, and most of the time you won't know until you're a goodway into things either. One game is balanced fun, and the other game just isn't. It's not fun watching gens go pop pop pop while you're in a single chase with their designated looper because VC lets you optimize and coordinate. It's not fun trying to find someone and having to dig behind every rock in futility because they were given a heads up in time to run off before you even got close. It's not fun having to run moris or tunnel the first player because leveling the playing field early on is your only chance of catching up to anything more than an end-game camp. It's not fun when the game is stripped of so many little variables of chance and confusion that otherwise yield interesting and unpredictable because some people would rather just cruise to the finish line when those chaotic elements are the very reason essence that makes games worth playing.
Its. Just. Not. Fun.
(Thank you all for reading. This has been my daily VC rant, see my post history for much, much more)
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True, not every SWF is good, but they all have an inherent advantage that the game really isn't built around.
Even me and my casual SWF buddies usually escape simply because if someone is getting chased, we just hop on gens. If you were in Solo Q, you couldn't do that and it causes the Killer a massive detriment.
Buff Solo's to SWF levels, then buff Killer's accordingly.
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What's interesting is that I don't think there's anyone who really disagrees with the idea that SWF pairings should be disclosed after the game like all the other details. Whether you're someone who thinks the problem is overblown or game-destroying, it seems that everyone actually agrees about something being in the best interest of all for once.
Maybe it'll reveal something one way or the other, but either-way when you're playing killer you'll finally know where you were entirely stomped by skill alone and where 50/75/100% of the survivors likely operated with a huge advantage. At the very least, killers can better gauge their own skill and recognize where they're most needing to GitGud.
Can't really understand why they wouldn't do this. Just toss some sand on the fire already, y'know.
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I do think transparency (both before and after a match) is important and fair here. Killers (and the odd man out Survivor too) should know that they have been put against (or next to) a SWF. It affects the match in a profound and discernible way whether the SWF is Seal Team-6 quality or just enjoying a competitive edge. The fact that we are purposely NOT told feels a bit sketchy to me. It could be being done because:
- They are afraid Killers (and the odd Solo) will duck the Lobby.
- They don't want us to be able to clearly track the issue and the problem ourselves.
Neither reason is very good. If they are certain Killers (and the odd Solo) would duck the Lobby then there is clearly a reason for it that needs addressing. If they simply don't want us to know so we can't track success/failure, they are trying to obfuscate an issue, i.e. a clear reason that it needs addressing. I've tried hard and I can't think of any other reason we shouldn't know.
I think that the only logistical solution to this issue is to have a Solo Que and a Group/Team Que. It solves 99% of the issues in that the Team Que can have additional Objectives added or extra Perk Slots unlocked for the Killer to attempt to balance the SWF 5th Perk (Comms) without unbalancing and strangling the Solo players. On a positive note for the DEV it opens up an entirely new and lucrative monetary stream of team cosmetics and potentially league dues and organizational options.
While I commend the DEV for trying to fix the issue with Perks and so on, that is never going to work long term because whatever they add to balance the SWF will always hit Solo even harder. The only OTHER option is to try and give all Solo the same powers as a SWF which would require massive amounts of new coding, rebalancing and redesigning of existing Perks and Powers, and also require the subsequent buffing of the Killers too. That is the LONG way around, whereas the short way around is simply two Ques.
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No. If they ever give in to killers like you that refuse to actually get better and deal with SWF and Nerf them just because this game will die and your queue times will shoot up for those still playing. You're never getting a SWF Nerf. It just punishes people for playing with friends. My SWF group I'm the ONLY one who is always a red rank on both sides. The rest hardly play so if they got punished for playing with me they'd stop playing and so many other people would as well. It'll never happen because it's a dumb idea. There is a reason they never respond to these ideas and the one time they did they said they wouldn't Nerf SWF for reasons similar to if not the same as what I said. Know what they did say they considered? Making kindred base for solo players to have more info. You as a killer don't want that because SWF or not they'll know where you are.
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It doesn't go both ways at all. People spend time with their friends and people choose to do that in this game. You can try to sound as smart or convincing as you want it'll never happen. No matter how right you think you are for saying SWF is a problem it isn't. People like you use to say it wasn't even intended for the game. BVHR shut those people up in a dev stream saying that it was planned for base game release but they didn't have it finished yet. It will always be there it will never punish those people for playing with a friend. You can git gud and deal with them or be a baby complaining in the forums about how it's unfair that people play with friends in a VIDEO GAME.
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This game is not built around SWF with comms... The fact that the game didn't die already shows us killers have evolved to a degree... But it's not giving in to us killers. It's keeping the core 1v4 mechanics IN WHICH WAS INTENDED in the first place. It's the devs giving in to the constant crying of survivors that has ruined the game at all... That's why your ques are 10x as long as mine.
If you don't think development is heavily survivor sided you are delusional.
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This represents just about every terrible argument for ignoring the massive issues with SWF (via voice-com) rolled into one post, and doesn't address a single one of its issues directly in favor of logical fallacies and unsupported claims. (With your next post already escalating to direct insults too... dude)
When something is never going to happen, you never actually need to concern yourself with fighting to ensure it won't happen.
You never need to be salty as sin, dismiss people as "refusing to actually get better," or even bother trying to seriously argue they should just shut up and accept the oppressive slog games for the amusement of you & your friends. That's entitlement at its core. Not to mention it's ridiculously hypocritical that you're arguing other people need to GitGud to overcome the cheating-level advantages required to keep your friends playing this game, as they refuse to get better on their own. All that said without any regard for the indisputable imbalance you're demanding being what renders most killer games negative fun--and fun is supposed to the driving factor for them too here.
I'm not at that point yet, but when this game stops being fun... I stop playing. I'm speaking as someone who did quit for over a year until pretty recently. Last time I left, it was essentially the same bullshit. Matching-ups against teams & coordination in a game that refuses to design for it makes playing killer increasingly un-chill, especially as you rank up, and all those experiences just bleed over into solo survivor to ruin that too. Killers need to play assuming the worst just to keep up with potential SWF, so they go rough/dirty from the start, and end up taking it out on their next match, whether they meant to or not. And it's always those veteran/red-rank players you run into (the ones who still stick around long after fun is negative) who are the saltiest and most toxic of all. If anything, Dead By Daylight thrives despite SWF VC, not because of it.
You insist that any changes would kill the game? Okay, well that's your claim to prove. You don't automatically get to attribute all the success of DBD to the bully simulator aspects. Especially not when that element is also clearly responsible for so, so much of the toxicity and bullshit that sheds away players and gives this game its bad reputation. The cycle of aggravation that reinforces players needing to move to SFW doesn't represent inherent necessity when you can break that cycle instead.
Here's the other thing, even if--that's even if--you're right about decimating its player base, then its not like most potential solutions couldn't be reversed just as easily. You've got one example of anecdotal evidence that three people might stop playing. I don't know about the theoretical, though I did hear about an actual killer exodus in the time I stopped playing. And people still frequently quit this game or switch over to survivor exclusively to get away from the neglected slog that players like you demand. Because somehow any attempts at balance are really just "punishing" you... even allowing them a damn choice in the matter. Here's my claim and it's self evident: there's no game at all without someone willing to put up with playing the killer.
From the tomes, to crossplay, to the web loot; they're doing a lot of creative and cool things to boost the killer player-base artificially. But that's only gonna go so far until they address the core problem. This is a game that requires 4 times as many players on one side as the other, and the one includes some of the biggest pop culture icons around while essentially the badass role, yet somehow it's easier to get a game as a killer. You'd expect the queue to play killer to be about four times longer... not shorter.
PS: Kindred should be included for all survivors. That's a damn good start. Whispers for all killers too. Both help improve the gameplay/fun factors, are all around useful, and shouldn't really require a perk-slot.
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