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We actually need more killers like Deathslinger and PH
Now, LBH, the reason people whine how these to are 'boring' 'OP' etc is because people can not go for their stale, boring, overdone routine in a match.
Look at it. Since the early days people are playing the exact same against every killer, regardless of ability or map possibilities:
engage in chase, loop, flashlight, teabag, gen-rush. rinse and repeat.
Sadly a lot of killers do their bidding and play a style to compliment this: don't really use your abilities, be an m1 killer, don't break chases off, get gen-rushed.
Deathslinger and PH put a stop to the whole nonsense, and survivor players hate that.
So, what we need isn't to nerf these killer to pamper bratty, uncreative survivors, we need more killers than can cut chases short, that can't be looped as easily, hell, that maybe even benefit from breaking off chases.
Give us a plant based killer who can trap survivors actively by growing traps in their path, give us the spring-heeled jack who can soar into the survivor's paths and over pallets and low walls... give us variety.
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The thing is, those Survivors make the most money. If those Survivors quit, then who will eat up all their overpriced cosmetics?
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Please, no more ranged killers, even if my recent concept was a ranged killer.
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Why are you comparing PH with Deathslinger?
I personally find it boring to go against PH but love to go against Deathslinger.
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Oh god I can already see where this post is going to go.
As for the actual topic, I don't want killers stronger than the current best chasers as I think we have enough good 1v1 characters. Id like a good balanced killer that has decent 1v1 and decent 1v4, kinda like demo but ya know... actually good.
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tbh I just wish I saw more pyramid heads, Ive no clue how to play around him since Ive faced him only like 3 or 4 times
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Which is why so many survivors loved facing add-on-less old Nurse, who forced them to change their playstyle and adapt.
Also, if you think Pyramid Head's change is a nerf, I'm sorry to say you're wrong. He's stronger than ever now, at least from my PTB testing (will have to monitor on live) and now he has more skill than "haha sword in ground i win chase", whilst being significantly more forgiving for actually trying to play him how the devs intended.
We need killers where both sides can have fun. Killers like Billy, Oni, and Blight are often heralded as fun, interactive killers for both sides by many players. Old base-kit Nurse, too (though fun for the killer depends on their skill level).
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Plenty of them at red ranks on EU
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Ive not faced many, then again Ive not played as much so have been more hovering around purple
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Uncreative survivors? I need to equip the meta perks in order to survive against them. I'm being pigeon holed.
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Only in the sense that they both put a stop to the aforementioned routine. PH is much more powerful than Deathslinger, but accournding to some they are both 'boring' etc as mentioned above
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Pyramid Head is a great presence on the map and one of my favourite Killers to go against. Having unusually monstrous Killers like The Executioner and The Demogorgon adds an extra element of anxiety I actually enjoy.
On top of that, there are a number of Killers who have tactics to cut loops - some much more successful than others - but Huntress, Trapper, Clown, Spirit, Hag, Legion, Plague, Nurse, Doctor, Deathslinger and Pyramid Head all have certain ways of cutting loops short (Legion is very weak, but Feral Frenzy cuts the usefulness of a pallet in delaying the pursuit).
It's just how you use a Killer or perks. It's not guaranteed every time to work, and if it were it would be broken. More anti-loop Killers would be welcome, but I would warn against focusing on that aspect of the game primarily. With inventiveness, there will be other Killers that could put pressure in other aspects. Maybe a Killer which focuses on sound, or another which preys on different statuses or tactics.
The more variety and ideas, the better. Probably also good to see different Killers as different difficulty levels. If people want to feel dominant, sure maybe they perfect Spirit or Nurse, but it's much more impressive to see a dominating Clown or Legion ... maybe there already is!
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Yikes, this is a post...
Pyramid Head and Deathslinger both zoned survivors for free, with no consequences. if old Pyramid Head was within Punishment range, you would get hit if they had line of sight, because either you drop the pallet and get hit by Punish, or don't, and get hit regularly. Deathslinger just forced survivors to drop all pallets super early and hope the loop is good enough. You can guess where he'll shoot, but can't outplay him, just get lucky, drop pallets and run to the next safe loop, not to mention his nonexistent TR that gives little warning when you'll get shot. This is a ranged killer, BTW. With no warning. At least Huntress has a lullaby.
No one is complaining about killers who don't chase in the traditional way. Nurse is excellent and players love Huntress, Blight, Oni, etc. Old PH and Hashslinging Slasher are just understandably unfun to play against, and since the Pyramid Head change, we're moving in the right direction since survivors actually have options.
So yikes.
Post edited by thefallenloser on19 -
Personally I think variety is the most important thing. We should have a bit of everything and not shame designs we don't personally like since others actually may like them. Only line is that in which killer's power literally breaks the game like old Legion did to chases and old Freddy did to stealth and juking.
We all find fun something different so wanting something removed or significantly changed just to appease the fun of one group is imo wrong. Balancing those things people find unfun is fine but drastic changes to designs that don't need them is uncalled for and shouldn't happen.
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PH should have a little bit less of a telegraph on his punishment now that he can't swing out of M2. Even a .5 second reduction would allow for more bold shots. I think he has potential to be a super fun prediction killer, but whether or not BHVR decides to take his gameplay in that direction is up to them. Right now his power has much more counterplay, but with the huge telegraph still being a thing it's going to be far more difficult to hit people with your power.
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This is going to be a very constructive thread /s
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I'd say blight is pretty balanced in both the 1v1 and 1v4.
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Why don't we just make a killer that immediately kills two survivors when you spawn into the map, but can't move and can't attack.
50% Win Rate. Very balanced and introduces a lot of variety compared to what we currently have.
Edit: Oh and balanced by the fact that the remaining two players can do generators.
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i'm no good survivor and can't run killers to save my life. but I've been evading high rank PHs without problem. And the 'drop pallets early' is a tactic from which streamer again? If you can use your eyes, you can walk around deathslinger easily. The palletdropping is actually a disadvantage against him. THAT gives him a free shot.
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1v4 yea he's pretty good. 1v1 though he looks waaaaaay too rng dependant and too weak in certain loops.
I haven't really seen a "God" blight main yet, but from the basic understanding of him it doesn't look like he can do much.
I would say doctor is a good example of a killer balanced in the 1v1 and 1v4.
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I said drop pallets early against Deathslinger.
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I find that most of my blight chases are pretty consistently short. while he's not great on most tiles his new ability to destroy pallets with a lethal rush has come in handy more times than I can count.
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but you cant outplay him
What.
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*You can guess where he'll shoot, but can't outplay him.
You can't actively dodge a shot if he's close enough, you can just get lucky, which isn't really fun.
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So you think a lose-lose-situation for survivors in a chase is fine? Sigh.
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Yes you can, if you think he is going to shoot at a corner you can dodge making it a 50/50. Many situations can be made a 50/50 against him.
Unless you're vaulting a window like a dummy, or going down a narrow corridor, he isn't a guaranteed down. He still has to shoot at a fixed point.
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So, you're making a 50/50 guess?
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Guess based on how good you think the other player is. Just like a 50/50 mindgame at a TL.
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I think there's a pretty clear difference between guessing how another player will use a loop and guessing if and how a killer will use their power. Guessing should not be the entirety of interaction between survivors and a killer's power.
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There really isn't that much difference, if I expect the slinger player to be bad due to cosmetics, movement, other actions in game etc I will dodge more obvious shots. If I think he is good I will change it up and dodge in some areas but not in others.
That is exactly how TL walls go, if you think the killer is bad, he wont double back. If you think he's good, you bait. If you think he is very good, he will double bait so you need to vault. You only have 2 options remember, vaulting the window or not.
Plus not justifying slinger with this but nurse and huntress also boil down to guesses especially at high tier play.
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I don't agree, especially with the Nurse and Huntress sentiments, mainly because the difference between the two is that there is a clear tell for when they'll use their power. They both have a bit of wind up that just doesn't exist with Deathslinger. He can just spam ADS until he has a clear shot or closes distance.
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Another thing: what is it with several red ranks doing the following against deathslinger:
They're in a chase. They do look behind them. The see Deathslinger being a little to the side. Instead of running/dodging to the other, they do a 90° turn and run straight across his line of side like a metal duck in a shooting booth at the carnival...
WHY?
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Give survivors more than just looping to use. Right now they just have nothing to use which leads to the complaints about those killers specifically. They don't feel like they had any interaction because they had nothing to use. I'm just rambling but I think the complaints about killers has some merit in that aspect.
The only tool survivors have is looping and when that is nullified by the killer it feels very unfair as there is minimal interaction. Examples of this are the standard Spirit, Pyramid Head etc. Those are two I think fall into that category.
Pyramid head right now just has to hold m2 and is guaranteed a hit regardless of what the survivor does. They throw a pallet down and get hit, or continue through and get m1'd. Same thing at a window.
Spirit only has interaction for her, not the survivors. Running stridor nullifies iron will and tilts it incredibly in her favor. The survivor can't control their sound and it just lacks interaction for them.
I'm just rambling but I think parts of the complaints from survivors about these killers is because they have close to no interaction around the only tool survivors have in the game to help them against killers.
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Hell no. As a killer I hate playing these 2. They're so boring to play. I LOVE LOVE LOVE blight. He's what every killer should be. He's so much fun. And he has such a high skill ceiling like Nurse. Pyramid heads skill ceiling is "Are they locked into an animation Y/N? if so throw out projectile" Same with slinger. "Are they in the open Y/N? If so pointy and shooty"Every chase is the exact same with those 2 its boring as hell to play and even more boring to play against. I stopped playing Spirit for similar reasons.
With Blights its actually worth trying unconventional moves or mindgames during a chase and half the time it works.
I thought I was actually falling out of love with DBD because I'd been playing less and less over time since Ghostface released. Turned out we just needed another killer with an actually unique and fun but fair power.
Pyramid and Slinger just encourage that crap you complain about further because they counter base mechanics but added JACK for survivors to play around it, so they have no choice but to continue that tired gameplay just with less effectiveness. Blight actually has proper counterplay that requires brains and tile knowledge on the survivors behalf (much like Oni, another very well designed, strong killer with a very high skill ceiling that you don't see survivors call 'boring' which invalidates your arguament btw) but he is both stronger and more fun than all of those killers.
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Where huntress throws is a complete guess along with where nurse blinks. Nurse could literally blink on top of you, to your left, right etc by doing a quick turn just before she blinks. You need to predict where she will blink. In fact if she wasn't just guesses she wouldn't be the best killer in the game rn.
If you know slinger is just spamming ads you can keep running, if you suspect he is going to shoot then you can strafe slightly. Not one of the big strafes like what you need to do against huntress, but extremely inconsistent strafes that make you a 1/100 to hit.
If you still can't reach a pallet in time don't end up in a deadzone against a ranged killer.
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Probably too used to all the huntresses they've versed of which have the hitbox of a bus. They need to dodge at a 90 degree angle so they don't get hit.
Of course because deathslinger's hitbox is smaller they don't need to do that, but they do it anyway.
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I can see what you mean, however the reason people don't like them is because there is no way to counter them. If you run to a pallet or window, and vault or drop it PH can use his shockwave attack and if you don't vault or drop the pallet he can still hit you. There is no counter to this. For deathslinger, he can deny you of a window/pallet vault or from dropping a pallet, and if they are good it becomes impossible to dodge his shots. The reason you can't dodge his shots is because of how short his ADS time is. It is too short and you cannot dodge it no matter how fast you react to it. Maybe you can guess and dead hard right when he shoots, but that isn't counterplay it is just guessing and hoping he misses.
I do believe that they should be nerfed, but not completely ruined.
Post edited by Yords on1 -
Nurse is far more powerful in the chase than DS. You also do have to guess against her, since you can't know how much distance she is going to take. Guessing is a normal part of pretty much all games btw, only the DBD community is upset that they don't always have full control of a chase.
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It very much seems like survivor mains just don't want to learn how to play differently. It's all about chasing to buy time for gen workers, and any killer or add-on or perk that makes that difficult for them is considered OP or unfair. When you find yourself in that situation, you should adapt instead of smacking your head against the wall trying to do the same thing as usual.
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Cause they both work similarly in chase. Except Deathslinger does it more efficiently.
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"Just learn how to play differently even though these killers add absolutely no new forms of counter gameplay in any way yet take away existing ones 4Head""
"Just stealth/gen rush lol while I complain on the forums that stealth/genrush is boring to play against Sadge"
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So, because people would rather d/c than play the game, that means that the game is better off with more of these killers, and more consistent d/cs?
wut.
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See, I don't like them because of HOW they end loops.
Sure, Huntress and PH can attack long range and then you look at Slinger and killer mains will see "Well, he's got a long range ability just like them, so what's the issue?" the issue with him is that his ability is meant to pull you to him so you can't get away (making your progress to get away pointless), if I throw a pallet and then he hits me with his chain, that should count as me getting away from a hit (if he can't pull me around the loop and m1). I see it as it should only pull you closer, not be a free hit. At least with Doc, he doesn't get a free hit with his shock, he has to use it then get closer. Not to mention dedicated servers are just the biggest crutch for Slinger... Because I love getting hit through a wall when I'm several feet away from where he shot his chain.
Then for PH, sure idc about loops getting shut down vs a Doc or if you make a bad play against a Huntress or whatever but you are forced to go into his Torment or take a m1 hit (which it's good that's getting fixed soon) and you don't have a say in the matter. Why should I allow the killer a free mori or a free way to get out of a possible flashlight blind/pallet stun (even though those never happen for me anyway). Carrying someone to the hook is a basic killer thing and PH caging people rips survivors out of not only perks such as BT and DS (it's not my fault you think the only way you can get a kill is to camp and tunnel) but also our BP (which could be easily fixed but its bhvr...) and survivors don't get much bp as is compared to killers. You should have to bring a mori to use a mori. You should have to bring lightborn to get out of worrying about flashlights. Throwing all of that out the window is a bit op if you ask me.
You expect survivors to learn to play in a different way or just learn to play period but, um... c-can we not say the same about killers...? Ya know, learn to play and you won't have to rely on bull mechanics like this...? The whole "L2P Noob" doesn't only apply to one side. But if you want to only say it about survivors maybe I should remind killer mains that other people who play killers such as one shot killers use things like NoEd cuz they suck at using their abilities...
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Do you want survivors to slam gens and hide all game? Because that's how you make survivors slam gens and hide all game. Until they eventually quit because playing survivor in DbD would be completely miserable and not fun in the slightest.
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Nah they've just resorted to holding W.
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I could not disagree more.
Survivors do not hate not being able to bully killers and get into their routine. Survivors hate when their hundreds of hours of experience playing the game doesn't matter. It's pretty much all down to the skill of the killer. That is straight up not fun. If the PH or Deathslinger misses you, you don't get a feeling of "wow, I made such a good play there!" like you would if you dodged a hatchet or successfully mindgamed the killer. You get a feeling of "Huh. Maybe the killer's bad." Zoning is just a lose/lose and should be removed from the game. Imagine a Huntress that can move at 110% while readying a hatchet and that can M1 almost immediately after putting her hatchet down. Would that be broken in the 1v1? Of course. That's roughly how it feels to play against PH or Deathslinger.
There needs to be room for skill to shine through on both sides. Arguments to the effect of "Run spine chill" or "Just split up and rush gens" do not deal with the fundamental problem with these killers, which is that there's just about nothing you can do to avoid a hit unless the killer is a potato. That makes interacting with them a flat out chore when it's usually the most fun part of the match. "But it's hard to land hits as Deathslinger! The hit box is tiny." "But it's hard to aim as PH! He's so clunky." I honestly don't care. I don't want to avoid getting hit because of lag, or hit boxes, or because you're bad. I want to avoid getting hit, at least some of the time, because I made a skillful play.
Survivors already have to adopt many different play styles against different killers. Pyramid Head and Deathslinger are not groundbreaking in that regard. Blight was already substantially more novel than both, and he offers a high skill cap for killers and plenty of counterplay for survivors. That's more of what I want to see added to the game.
I'm all for asking for more variety. That's a great thing. Pyramid Head and Deathslinger are not really "variety", though. They're basically different versions of Huntress that can zone in exchange for other trade offs, like a more limited range.
Post edited by notstarboard on1 -
The key difference is that Nurse and Huntress move at well below 100% speed when preparing their power. That means they are time bound into using their power. Nurse will continue to lose distance on the survivor until she blinks and Huntress will continue to lose distance on the survivor until she either throws or puts her hatchet away. Deathslinger just quick scopes for a fraction of a second at a time and is essentially still close to 110%. PH is also at 110% in Torment Mode.
That speed means that they can prepare to use their ranged attack while still gaining distance on the survivor, and this in turn opens up the opportunity for them to zone. They can either use their ranged attack on a survivor that does not dodge or they can quickly gain ground and use M1 on a survivor that does dodge. Nurse and Huntress cannot do that. Imagine if Nurse was a 110% speed killer and could cancel her blink for a quick M1. Imagine if Huntress moved at 110% speed while readying a hatchet and could almost instantly put away her hatchet in order to M1. That is how roughly it feels to play against PH and Deathslinger, and that is why both of them are broken af in the 1v1 unless the killer is a potato.
"But how do I know if the survivor is going to dodge at the last second? It's a guess on both sides." Well, not really. Deathslinger can fake multiple shots in a row to gauge the survivor's reaction before shooting. If the survivor doesn't dodge, what are the odds they're going to dodge on the fourth time he raises his gun? If they do dodge, even some of the time, awesome, keep raising the gun. They're losing distance and you'll be in M1 range in no time. Pyramid Head is similar, except he basically just puts people into a situation where they have to choose between animation locking themselves and risking POTD (by vaulting or dropping a pallet) and pre-emptively dodging POTD and risking an M1. If the ping is really bad my guess is it may be hard to react to a vault or pallet drop in time and especially with hit validation you could miss some shots if they end up faking at the last second, but the trade off is that the survivor won't be able to react to POTD in time to dodge, even on open ground. So, either way, PH is able to put the survivor into a lose/lose situation.
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If you stop victimising yourself, I might be able to take any of that seriously. I rarely, if ever, see the whole "toxic genrusher" routine these days, from teammates it opponents, but no. I play survivor, that's all I do, no? And of course, you don't seem to care about Blight, a killer who is arguably stronger than either of those you mentioned. That's extremely telling. No mention of Huntress either, hmm. No Billy? No Oni?
There's a difference between "strong killer" and "forced stealth section."
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Exactly
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They predator could be good in chase's he would have a leap ability maybe
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No. These killers are unhealthy AF for the game.
More killers and great perks like we got with Blight though, please!
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