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We actually need more killers like Deathslinger and PH
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A good Oni does, but a good Nurse for sure doesn't.
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Sounds like someone refuses to learn.
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Pretty sure they get hate because they're bullshit. Windows and pallets are meant to be the way for a survivor to be safe and not get caught. When you have pyramid head that can launch a grounded attack that goes through that pallet and window with not little effort to it of course people will hate it. Also gotta remember most people don't spend their lives playing this game like some of us or caring to be amazing at this or focus on counterplay. They just wanna play and enjoy themselves and they're very anti fun. Though I'd rather go against DS than PH at least he takes skill to be good.
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It’ll be fascinating to see what they’ve done for next chapter.
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The problem is that you literally can't play against a good pyramid head, I main killer and suck ass with him, but a good pyramid head is unstoppable in the 1v1
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But that works both ways. Killers want to lose because they went against a good team, not because the survivor ran a god window 3 times and they couldn’t do anything about it, not because of stacked second chance, maps full of a thousand safe pallets, or holding W on Midwich or Hawkins.
There is a lot of situations where against a team that knows what they’re doing some of the older killers just can’t get the job done. They simply don’t have the tools in their kit to make it work. Not just that but going by the examples above it takes relatively little skill on the survivor side to do that. Run Ormond for example and its safe pallet to safe pallet to safe pallet, DH for distance and then safe pallet to safe pallet. Survivors love that and I get it that feels more fun but on the killer side it’s garbage, the mechanics of the game give you no input. Its the reverse of your scenario, you dont get hits or hooks because you did good, you get them because the survivor made a mistake.
Have you played any of those ranged killers? Especially deathslinger, all it takes is a little wiggle to make his shot miss. Half a step and it will fly past you. Theres a reason him and PH zone.
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Nurse doesn’t. Thats the one killer where you’re actually relying on them to make a mistake.
Oni though? Drop pallets and learn your angles.
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You can't juke a deathslingers harpoon, it is physically and mathematically impossible, you have to have record time reaction speed to do it.
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now, i totally agree on the first part.
i love killers with unique chase mechanics that play differently than most of the cast, thats why i mained Trapper for so long and thats why im curently maining Deathslinger.
it adds more variety to the game and makes it more exciting than having 21 killers who all have the exact same counterplay to them.
but that power needs to offer a couple of things to survivors aswell - first of all it should require the killer to use their power well to be effective and secondly there should be some sort of counterplay to it that surivors can use to avoid the power.
lets take Deathslinger as an example here: his power requires precision, its therefore not very easy to be used effectively. now, his power also requires him to be within a certain range towards a survivor plus having a direct line of sight to them. this is the part survivors can play around, if they use line of sight blockers to their advantage they can avoid getting shot and if they play very smart and predict when he is going to shoot, they can dodge his bullets aswell.
PH on the other hand is a killer whose design i dont really like, even though he can be quite similar to Slinger if used differently (which funnily enough makes me love him again). the problem here is the continuous faking of his power - it takes no skill on their part, no precision, nothing. its just "ram knife in ground, then M2 should they go for a window / pallet or normal M1 should they not go for it" its a lose lose situation where the survivor cant really do anything against it, which makes it feel extremely cheap to go up against.
i like the change they gave him, it makes the unique aspect of his power, the ability to shoot through walls, more appealing and effective, aswell as making the annoying aspect of him cheesing chases less effective.
(and btw, no i dont think DS has an ability that can be used to cheese chases anywhere near as much as PH. the difference here is that DS needs a LoS to be able to shoot you, so if you used LoS blockers smartly, he wont get said chance. if you end up in a scenarion where he shoots you if you go for the pallet / hits you normally should you not its your own mistake, as you were outpositioned. plus the chase with DS is literally the only thing he is good at, while PH has other aspects he is good at aswell, therefore i dont think such a strong / oppressive chase power is justified in his case, while its fine for DS)
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Have you played DS against good survivors?
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I mained him before blight came out, so yes.
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And how many times did you miss a shot because a survivor took 1 step to the side?
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Idk, I'm not a good slinger, but what I'm trying to say is, you didn't ever juke a deathslinger, the deathslinger missed.
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No. They need to make more killers like Demo who are balanced and are interactive for both sides. Not killers like Slinger and Spirit who are oppressive in chase and leave the survivors with no input.
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What I’m trying to say is the margin for error is so great that’s its the reason so many zone rather than going straight for the shot.
We’ve had this with Pyramid too recently. Survivors complained about his zoning and all the killers said its because the POTD is ridiculously easy to avoid.
DS can be the same. Slightest wiggle and it misses its easier to zone until close.
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Have you considered at all that survivors have to be ready to respond to 21 different killers x perk builds, whereas killers have to be ready to respond to 1 standard survivor x perk builds x 4? If a killer creates a build that is generally effective vs. a common survivor perk build, then all survivors can do is run different perk builds which is actually a bit limiting considering that many perks on both sides are pretty useless. A killer can choose a whole different suite of powers x perk build to combat the current survivor meta.
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So you can't dodge a good huntress then because a fully charged hatchet moves at the same speed and has a bigger hit box.
It's not a dodge, it's a prediction. If you could dodge his harpoon or huntress they'd be clown tier.
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Thing is I agree with you OP, but the fact is that loops have also been drastically nerfed. Rendering some zones nearly worthless.
So to me, in order to introduce more “different” you also have to look at whether or not the opposing side has things that have also changed as a means of being able to have counterbility. I play PH and can understand why he comes with downsides, and I have seen people loop me (or try) as you mention (same boring looping mechanic) but guess what? That’s because that’s all they have. There is nothing new that has been introduced even in the new maps. With the exception of breakable walls... most of which are not interactive at all and are very killer sided.
You just cannot have different ideas implemented (as awesome as they might sound) if the other side will not be equipped to be able to counter said abilities in some fashion.
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good at 1v1 but no map pressure/traversal, mediocre at 1v1 but has good map traversal/pressure, or next to nothing provided to help 1v1 with amazing map pressure/and or traversal.
thats the way i like to see it and both killers you set as examples fall into the 1st category. a lot of killers can be put into theses category's but there are always outliners like freddy or hag who are so unique or have a little of everything so they belong in a different category.
I think the strongest killers will always be the ones good at 1v1 because its clear how they are are played and you can see how good they are faster then say a killer like hag or the best recent example blight.
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I really dont get the point of your thread, who cares what you say about other people anyway? They like it because they like it, and just because you call them out what they like (which is totally fine by the way) this wont change anything.
just deal with it.
PS. The reason we "need" killer like Deathslinger is to scare away every survivor who likes a good chase and attract every survivor who likes stealth. Imagine this would be the case... then have fun with hide and seek games 24/7. Cu there complaining about those nasty Blendettes...
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This is not a binary choice between lose/lose for survivors and lose/lose for killers. The issue with Pyramid Head and Deathslinger is not that they're OP either, so asking for changes is not asking for them to be nerfed so that survivors can do better against them. The ask is to remove a mechanic that is uncounterable in exchange for other buffs.
Ormond is broken, but that is entirely irrelevant. Ormond existing is not a reason why zoning should be exist. Ormond should be reworked and zoning should also be removed.
Midwich and Hawkins are double-edged swords. Killers like Hag on Midwich pretty much automatically win, but many other killers will have a tough time... At any rate, in the vast majority of situations the killer is not as powerless as you're making them out to be. If it feels like a killer just doesn't have the tools to do well, the most likely answers are that matchmaking was bad and/or you have room to improve your game, as opposed to the killer actually being too weak and not having any chance.
If you run into an Ormond offering every few hours does that mean that survivors love easy wins and bullying the killer? Absolutely not. The last two times I ran an Ormond offering I was doing a rift challenge to escape through the hatch and I wanted to make it more likely that I would survive until the hatch spawns. Plus, even if you assume that everyone bringing an Ormond offering just wants to bully the killer, even if you see an offering every five games that means 5% of people want to bully the killer. That is nothing. The "survivors love that" argument is just trying to put survivors in a box to make them seem more toxic than they actually are; there's no way to back that up.
Games on Ormond are really boring in my opinion because many killers just don't have a chance. If you're a very highlight mobile killer, like a purple Windstorm Wraith, you have a shot. Otherwise you pretty much have to hope the survivors mess up and gift you a three gen or a down near the basement. As a survivor, I am always looking for a competitive match. I don't want to get absolutely steamrolled and I also don't want to complete five gens before the killer's gotten many hooks. It is way more satisfying to make a good play that turns the tide of a tight match than it is to make a good play when you're already winning big. I usually even feel bad going for things like flashlight saves when we're way ahead.
I haven't played Pyramid Head anyway, but I've played against him many times and watched gameplay. That's the only reason I even know it's possible to dodge POTD, because it isn't possible for me on my typical ping.
At the end of the day, the issue with zoning is that the survivor has basically no input. Choose to dodge, and you eat an M1. Choose to run straight, and you eat a ranged attack. If the killer misses an attack, I honestly don't care if they missed because they can't aim, or because of bad hitboxes, or because of ping. All that I care about as a survivor is the ability to influence a miss. If a killer that can zone misses, and they have a head on their shoulders, that miss had nothing to do with the survivor. Deathslinger will occasionally have some semblance of 50/50 situations as a survivor is about to break line of sight near a pallet they can pre-drop, but most of the time it's a lose/lose. For Pyramid Head, it's almost entirely a lose/lose unless he goes into Torment Mode at a bad time.
If the justification on the killer side for zoning is that it's too hard to land shots, remove zoning and make landing shots easier. I don't care if that's some auto-aim for console players, or bigger hitboxes, or improvements through the hit validation system. Go nuts.
If the justification on the killer side for zoning is that the killer is too weak if you remove their ability to zone, remove zoning and give them other buffs to compensate. You could increase Deathslinger's movement speed and increase the length of his chain, for example. Or, for Pyramid Head, you could remove his ability to zone in exchange for faster activation of POTD, faster shockwave travel time (so that it's easier to aim and no one can dodge it regardless of ping), easier aiming of POTD, faster power recovery, etc. You could also try more wacky but interesting solutions, like reducing PH's movement speed while laying a trail of torment, but solidly increasing his speed while running along an existing trail of torment and increasing the duration of his trails.
Just remove zoning. It is crap.
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Consequently both are ranged killers who LOVE to camp. Most Pyramid Heads and Deathslingers I meet camp hard. And yeah, just do gens! Cause you know, your solo teammates are always just doing gens and not going for a save.
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Yes, but huntress has to wind up her hatchet and slows down.
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M1 killers are so freaking hard to get good with. I pushed to Rank 6 with Anti-Loopers in my first couple months playing... switching to an M1 killer is just painful. lol
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If you want more killers at least like Cone Head then you might as well just remove windows and pallets all together and make the game a hold W simulator because that is basically all you can do against him. You can sometimes vault windows if you're far enough away but pallets are pretty much useless unless they are like the shack pallet and you pre-drop it
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I'd have to disagree, though I can entirely agree with your broader point that we want and need killers that continue to challenge survivors and the survivor meta are the things what we want to see and what keeps the game interesting, I believe that killers like these specifically are not the kind of prototype or foundational basis we want to base future killer designs off of.
This killer design specifically, being that of killers with only powerful chase tools, with very little to no map mobility, map pressure, or other utility. That's where I think the Deathslinger and Pyramid Head comparison comes from. They're both known primarily for their powerful chase tools rather than their, for lack of a better word, less prominent tools they might have like decreased TR for the former and trails of torment / cage of atonement for the latter.
Instead what I think is a great example of good design is The Blight. That's the kind of thing that we should be looking toward as good design, a killer who's ability is used primarily for something other than chases (in his case Map Traversal and Map Mobility) but can also be used in chases to deadly effect (with enough practice). Blight is not an easy killer to play by any means, he honestly gives Nurse a run for her money as most difficult killer in the entire game (though I think she's still more difficult than Blight for reasons I won't go into now) but with enough practice and skill he is leagues better than either Deathslinger or Pyramid Head.
This is the crux of what make Deathslinger and Pyramid Head to a certain degree, un-fun. While this applies to a lesser extent to Deathslinger it is certainly very obvious for Pyramid Head. There is nothing particularly skillful about waiting for a survivor to become locked in animation, under threat of force with M1 otherwise if they don't, so you can use punishment of the damned when they drop or vault a pallet or window. Imo, telling the community this shouldn't be nerfed or changed in any way, comes off just as much an attempt to "pamper bratty, uncreative killers" as survivors who want to continue to be allowed free reign through their boring meta of DS, Unbreakable, OoO, etc. It looks just as bad on killers as it does on survivors, and you aren't doing yourselves any favors by trying to push forward such a blatantly fallible argument. (The glories of playing both sides so that I can make fun of both sides, amazing).
I'll submit that this isn't as obvious for Deathslinger, (though I will point out Deathslinger can pull off nearly the same maneuver as Pyramid Head at windows [just not at pallets]) it certainly takes more skill since more often than not you're trying to hit a moving target. But considering Deathslinger's ridiculously high ADS time which provides his ability to quickscope, aiming down sights in less than a second and with absolutely no restriction in doing so it feels very much like the same or at the very least a very similar situation. Where survivors have extremely little to no opportunity for counterplay, and they're left basically just hoping that the Deathslinger misses.
In both cases this is by no means good design, arguably it's not horribly awful balance because Deathslinger and Pyramid Head are far from overbearing killers at the top of tier lists that dominate every match it's certainly possible for them to lose. However design in gaming or at least in this case and context refers to how successful in terms of fun it is and the fact of the matter is- it's not.
It's not exactly a debatable point that having killers with little to no counter-play (dropping pallets early is hardly counterplay all by itself, these are limited aside from outpacing them in terms of generators is good for the game or fun. All this does is encourage players to finish their games faster, and faster, and faster, as more and more killers and survivors race against each other to see who can finish more hooks or generators first. Most obviously, this isn't a fun choice in terms of direction to deliberately head the meta toward for anybody. Hence why I hope Deathslinger and Pyramid Head will be tweaked (not NERFED, just tweaked and reworked), and we won't see killers who rely purely on poorly designed powerful chase tools, instead we'll see even stronger and more viable killers who have access to other utility that makes them better and more fun to play against.
I know I came a bit late to this thread (posting on page 3) but I hope I could change some minds / turn a few heads with this post anybody.
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No mor ranged nor trap based killer. I hate em specially when maps are 500km2
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