Is Dead by Daylight ever going to be TRULY balanced?
Title.
What do you think, is Dead by Daylight ever going to be TRULY balanced, meaning that it will be at least 90% fun for ALL players? (The remaining 10% would be... players who don't have fun with anything either way, even if everything is balanced)
We all know Dead by Daylight is in a state where there's more bugs than cosmetics in the game. I mean, at least that's what everyone else is suggesting, because I personally don't encounter lots of bugs- Anyway, this ain't about my opinion. This about your opinion.
Comments
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First, Bugs have nothing to do with Balance. Bugs are things which are unintended. And I dont think that DBD will ever be bug-free, but I dont encounter many Bugs in my games.
Second, I think the vast majority of players who play DBD have fun while playing it. Why would you still be playing it if not for fun? Yes, you lose against Survivors. Yes, you get tunneled. But this is not every game and even if someone opens a forum thread to vent about it, this person will most likely have fun while playing DBD.
Regarding Balance, this game will never be 100% balanced. There are too many factors:
Solo vs SWF-->You will not manage to achieve balance for both groups. Even if you do everything to bring Solo to SWF-Level (which is not something the Devs really want IMO), you cannot make them similar.
Killers-->There are so many different Killers with different strength. Like, that guy who puts down Traps so that Survivors step in it will never be as strong as that girl who teleports over the Map or that girl who is invisible while chasing people. This is simply impossible to bring Killers to similar strength Level.
Maps-->There are Survivor-sided Maps and Killer-sided Maps and this is ok in my opinion. Not to an extend like Haddonfield or Ormond, but it is fine if a Map slightly favors Killers or if it slightly favors Survivors. Also, RNG... You can have the same Map with 8 and with 12 Pallets, which makes a difference. If you would remove RNG from the game, you could balance it easier, but I think that RNG is a good thing for Maps.
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No and people who think it will are fools.
The only way for a game to be balanced is for both sides to be exactly the same. Which is bassicly no game ever.
Even chess is imbalanced as one player has to start first which may or may not be an advantage.
I prefer having lot's of viarity instead of searching for this mythical perfect balance
I respect the devs decision to not balance around the high ranks. It's a fool's errant anyway
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no, too much RNG, too different roles and the bugs can't physically be solved as long as they don't remake from scratch the code.
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No, until this game has devs that think Pig is A tier killer
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This game will never truely be balanced. There are too many factors in this game that affect balance.
Every little thing changes the balance. From keys to moris, from strong killers to weak killers, from strong add-ons to weak add-ons, from map rng to totem rng. Every little thing in this game changes the balance in some way.
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I think for the most part DBD is in a good spot and they did a pretty goob job so far (unironically). Of course there are the known balance issues, but overall it´s a highly enjoyable game. I wouldn´t play it so much if it wasn´t.
Given its 4v1 setting it´s a pain to balance anyway. I don´t think it will reach the level of balance that CS has, for example, but I´m fine so long as it´s balanced reasonably well.
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It shouldn't be too hard to code the game to match colour to colour. Red v red etc.
As a relatively new player and killer I get completely bored playing the game with constantly coming up against higher ranks.
Last game I played killer (level 17) and was against levels 2,4,9 & 13. Really!!!
As for the toxic don't waste your time. I don't rise to it and give sad little boys the satisfaction of reacting. Get a life.
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It could be possible, but it would ruin the game.
The simple fact is, in order to balance we need to remove the advantage that swf have. There might be a few ways to do this but as a rough idea it means:
- base kit kindred
- base kit bond (with unlimited range)
- a way to see when somebody is in a chase, and specifically who it is and where they are (solved by bond)
- base kit aura reading ability to see which gens are being worked on and how much progress they have
- base kit aura reading of the killer when they are in sight of any survivor
Basically, all the above will mean SWF (on comms) have no advantage of solos. Once that happens killers can be boostly (massively) with all those features in mind to finally balance the game.
However, as you can imagine, those things would all ruin the game.
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No, and that's a good thing. Not every PvP game has to be an eSport. That's not a reason to keep genuinely broken and overpowered things in the game, but if DBD was truly balanced then chases literally wouldn't exist and most of us would quit due to complete boredom or extreme frustration.
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I get it I really do. No game will ever be truly balanced but the current match making is sucking the game dry.
Last game I played as stated before I had the little plonkers deliberately failing skill checks hoping I'd run straight over so they could bully a new killer.
Sorry didn't work. I'll wait until you get bored and start playing properly. I got two of them in the end.
Don't let the door hit you on your toxic ass on the way out.
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It can never be truly balanced, because the game is not completely mirrored. That does not mean it can not be improved though.
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The game is balanced above 2k, what killers want? 4k every game?
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So facecamping 2 survivors is balanced?
Killrates are part of the balance. There are many more things to look at to determine if something is OP or UP or balanced.
Ontopic:
Asymm Games will never be on a balancelevel like CS or Dota. But you can try to make the game "fair" for both sides even though you can't balance everything.
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Balance is extremely subjective in this game so no, it wont ever be balanced.
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Or we remove SWF and solve every problem at once. :)
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I don't think an asymetrical game can ever truly be balanced, that's sort of the nature of the game.
I do think the balance right now is probably one of the best it's ever been - there's been so many changes to maps etc to remove certain windows which has certainly helped.
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😁 perhaps... I expect we would lose a large portion of the player base though.
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No, this game needs to be balanced towards the masses so some things need to be a little broken on both sides.
Death Garden tried to balance around the highest level of play. They buff killers to be able to compete against the 4 sweaty swf coms swat teams survivors, but doing so completely destroyed balance for the other players, the 99% of the player base. So people quit playing it. It's now a dead game, servers are offline now and no one can play it anymore.
Also fun fact I've heard. Umbra a twitch steamer played it before and won about 250 consecutive games as killer before.
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No. Games like this, with so many variables and changing elements, cannot ever be truly balanced. It is always a work in progress. There will always be unintended consequences of new materials, a changing META, and odd out of game issues like disconnects which play havoc on balance. The game will always be as balanced as they can manage, but it is better for your sanity (and that of the Dev) that you have realistic expectations about what can (and cannot) be achieved in this medium.
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Knowing I’m not in the minority...of all games I’ve put time into, this game would be the least fun. I don’t have fun being immobilized on the ground for a few minutes. I don’t have fun forcing struggle just to get a 4k. That’s just me though
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So, not meaning this in a snarky way, why are you still here? If I'm not enjoying a game, I move on. You just described DbD as the least fun of any game you play. If this is true, vote with your wallet.
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I'd argue that the game is balanced fairly well all things considered. You gotta remember that DBD has to cater to two different sides/ playerbases and for that it will never feel truly balanced. Side A will moan about something that makes Side B too strong and that will cause Side B to complain that Side A has always been busted and needs huge nerfs and blah blah blah.
I do not envy BHVR. They have an incredibly difficult job to do.
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I like to complete things. I have a couple survivors left to P3 and max out. It’s a gift and a curse. I can’t remember the last time I bought anything in dbd, so I’ve already voted with my wallet
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Can it be truly balanced? No.
Can it be balanced more than the current state this game is in? Yes.
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Hrm. Sounds weird to me; my need to complete things (which are entirely optional) does not override desire for enjoyment from the activity. But you do you. It sounds like a huge waste of your time, but if you want to keep volunteering your energy as a Survivor to a game you don't enjoy, who are we to complain.
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Will never be balanced until swf is truly addressed.
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idk, you sound pretty sus godot
Also due to what this game is (Assymetrical) it will never be balanced
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It is not impossible but the game would have to change tremendously using statistics and algorythms to pair certain killers with certain maps they are good at and what devs said about MMR. Every killer needs his own ranking so don't go red ranks with a certain killer and red stomped with a different one. When i start to play billy or nurse on red ranks people ask me how i got my ranking. NOT AS NURSE, OBVIOUSLY!
They just don't get it and it's annoying. Can't get better with certain killers if you can't get a hit and your small moments from time to time. But what do survivors know. They think playing a different killer is just as survivor, like changing your player model.
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"They think playing a different killer is just as survivor, like changing your player model."
This is honestly true for most Killers, because most of the Killers are pretty simple. And if you are experienced with Trapper, you dont need to go against Baby Survivors with Pig, since they play roughly the same (as an example).
And in fact, they tried different "Ranks" for different Killers with the MMR-System, but it did not really work out. (E.g. I got decent Survivors while playing Nurse and I am terrible with Nurse. Meanwhile, I won 30 games or so with Billy and still got players playing their first game...)
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A few of them might be feasible if auras were tied to a dedicated aura button instead of automatically seeing always on auras.
Would make trying to see people in a chase easier if I could not see bright red gens all the time.
They'd have to stop moving to activate it though. And wouldn't apply to conditional auras like Bitter Murmur or Kindred.
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I guess your point about solo swf being too different is half valid because even though I personally think there are simple steps to be taken to close the gap as much as possible, you are correct in saying that they will always be different experiences(which is a reason I would use to justify bringing solo to swf level).
Your point about killers being impossible to balance because their powers are different is kind of moot. Plenty of other competitive games have shown that you can strive for balance even among characters with varying abilities and strengths. I don't think we should just accept it and move on when we realize that a character is objectively inferior to another in terms of performance.
This point about maps doesn't really make sense because that means a priority of casual play over competitive. I think it would be relatively simple to implement maps in a way that is fair and also random. For example, if the devs could rate a tile's power rating and fill out maps to meet a specific power rating range then theoretically all maps would have similar power levels and some exciting variance still. Obviously for this to work you would also need the algorithm to factor in the strength of adjacent tiles correctly among other things. The concept of survivor and killer sided maps is archaic, maps already naturally swing in some types of killers' favor so there is no need for further incentive for or against certain maps.
Of course if the devs don't care about balance then that's all we need to know to answer this question.
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Y tho
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How is trapper the same as pig? xD
See, this is what i was talking about xD
"Trapper is similar to Hag" is something i would understand. Both need to prepare an area and chase survivors into. The pig is a stealth killer. If you play her like trapper you do it wrong. On top comes her reverse trap stuff you also need to learn. If you don't use the powers of killer sure, most might be similar. But that's not the point of playing different killers. Not if you want to get gut and have fun.
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Why wouldn't chases exist? Even balanced games have skill based interactions. Keep in mind that a balanced game is ideally one where two sides of equal skill have a near equal(barring some rng and counterpicks) chance at winning.
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Assymetrical is REALLY HARD TO BALANCE due to the 2 sides having different objectives entirely, along with the list of perks we have available it makes balancing the game perfecting impossible
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Not a bad suggestion to be fair.
Would help keeping some of the atmosphere of Dbd. Cause lets be honest, as useful as auras are, they spoil the visuals of the game.
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Perfectly*
Who ever suggested perfect balance? I may have misinterpreted this thread because perfect balance only exists in rock paper scissors and tic tac toe. I was thinking true balance as in as close to perfectly balanced as possible while still having variance aka fun.
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Solo <-> SWF: Solos should be on SWF-Level. But we also know that "Basekit Kindred" was one thing that was asked a long time for, but the Devs buffed Kindred (which is great), but also said in a Livestream that there are no plans to make it Basekit. So I highly doubt that they actually want to take the steps to bring Solo to SWF-Level when it comes to information.
Killer Powers--> Are those asymmetrical games? The only other PvP-game I play is not asymmetrical. Because, if you want to keep the Kit of the Killer (as example - Trapper placing Traps to catch Survivors), you cannot do that much about it. Maybe if you let him Teleport to Traps as a tool for Map Mobility, but this would contradict his Power (since you want to use the Traps in an area and not clustered around the Map). With Killers like Nurse, Spirit, Oni, Hag it would be really hard to bring more simple Killers like Trapper, Wraith or Myers to the same Level of Strength. Except for changing their Kit (see Freddy). And at least when it comes to Perks, BHVR wants to keep the Core Design, and while they did not do that with Freddy (except for the Dream World), I dont think that this would be the norm.
Maps-->Yes, I think DBD is a casual game. And not competitive even if players want to make it competitive. But I agree that giving the different Tile a value and making sure to place them in a way that a Map cannot consist of three T/L walls next to each other and in the next game those are 3 Jungle Gyms, would indeed work. And I did not think about that as a solution.
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Remove SWF
Game balanced
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It might not be possible to perfectly balance but it should be for the majority and right now it is not. Killers have been buffed and the perks and are now too strong. Casuals don't stand a chance against even a mediocre killer. Too many aura perks, slow down perks, not enough defenses on maps given the kind of killers are in the game now. Continuing to balance around the top will be the death of DBD. Watching hundred hour survivors constantly die in 10 seconds every match gets boring fast.
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So you are saying that the devs do not care about balance basically. I guess given how things have been going you are more likely to be right than I am.
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I think there is simply too much different stuff, regarding killer powers and perks to ever get that game balanced.
And the 90% thing... I think this community contains more than 10% that will always find something to complain about. Tbh, this "survivor main" and "killer main" thing might be bad overall to start off with, but missing empathy for the opposing role is definitely a huge source for unnecessary discussions
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No and there's a reason: the game needs more survivors players, it's an 4x1, being survivor sided is an attractive to players choose this side.
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The game doesn't need survivor players because players naturally shift roles according to queue time and also if survivors die early in a game they get to queue up for another before the killer does.
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Because Nurse and Spirit and 4-minute gens.
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This game was balanced years ago, they said it in streams 50% killed 50% escaped. Then they started listening to all the complaints and making changes. Last I heard the average now is 3 survivors dead and one escape. Averaged threw all matches combined. All in the name of balance
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there will always be things people will disagree with its just a part of game design bhvrs kind of in the crisis of balancing around high level play and the majority of players which for the most part they have done a good job on balancing for both and i commend them for it
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As long as certain balance people at bhvr say that clown has hidden potential and that pig is A tier nothings gonna be balanced
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Well i'm sure it could hit that 90%, but that's tough since they have to consider all of these different Killer Powers, Killer statistics (Terror Radius size, movement speed, etc.), Perks, maps and all that jazz.
There's just a lot that they have to consider in this game.
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But that's an easy problem to solve... Maybe hard to implement
Expand the ranks and separate them... 10-1 in each color
Limit MM to the colors (brown with brown to red with red)
Also adjustments will have to be made to pips and emblems (I have a few ideas for that if necessary)
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