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Keys bring hope into DbD games.
Keys are an essential part of the DbD gameplay. Besides them not having a great overall affect on most games (i see keys in about 1 percent of games I play), they bring another dynamic into the gameplay experience that would be absent without them.
The first thing it does is provide hope to the last 2-3 people left that maybe they just have to get one more gen done and they could possibly get hatch. Or if you are the last 2 people left because you had two console vegetables on your team, you are able to possibly have another way to escape. Keys bring another dynamic to gameplay. It makes survivor and killers both think differently and it allows another element into the gameplay.
This is along the lines of something like d-strike, which brings different interactions into the game, rather than just be tunneled from hook and downed and then rehooked. But we won't get into that because we have the very stable genius argument of "killer shunt be poohnished for dong objutcives", even though the last two years of nerfs on survivor have been literally punishing them for doing their objectives lol
It's not even like keys are overpowered and comparing them to moris is a terrible comparison. Keys could be countered. If a survivor is bringing a key into the trial, you are able to see that and bring in franklins demise, tunnel the person who brought in the key, or choose to just doge the lobby because a big, bad, spoopy key is coming into the game. I would love for the Devs to bring out actual hard numbers on how greatly keys affect the overall escape rates of the game. I guarantee they won't do that though because it would counter the "Survivors run this game and killers are persecuted while survivors get everything they desire." alternate reality that has been constructed on here by a very loud vocal minority of killer-mains and then facilitated by the mod squad.
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Against average survivors? Sure.
But they aren't balanced at top level play. If you "put on franklin's and tunnel the key holder" what happens? You lose. Because the other survivors slam gens. Keys make it so you can't lose (as a team) just as moris do the same. Both need to be fixed because they both tip the scales too far in favor of one side.
Dodging is not a good argument. If something is balanced because it can be dodged why not have an item that just instantly completes all 5 gens. I mean. If you see it just dodge right?
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I get to rank 1 survivor and about rank 4-6 killer every single season. I'll start making sure to take photos of my end games to show you that keys are not that prevalent in my games, at least. What would you say the percentage of games you play, you have survivor bringing keys into your games. I played about 12 games today and I didn't see one key at rank 4-5. Over the last few weeks, I don't think I've seen one survivor bring a single key into the game.
To say that keys are some sort of epidemic in DbD is to weave a false narrative and to pad out 4k rates for the power fantasy, which about sums up this forum and the mods attitudes.
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I was going to type up an argument to counter your claims, but then realized you're a biased Survivor main and wouldn't listen to reason.
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You lost all credibility (if this post even had any) by insulting both console and killer playerbases, good job.
Another dynamic into the game.. Yes, a negative one just like moris.
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Prevalence is a bad argument. They unbalance the game. Point blank. I can also say that iridescent head huntress is pretty rare too but I'd bet you agree that it should be nerfed
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I'm not too worried about "credibility" on this forum. What I'm worried about is how survivor gameplay continues to be nerfed so there is a very limited set of ways to play or interact with the game. The different interaction is now dependent on what killer you are going against. This makes it very boring when I play killer because you are not getting any type of different interaction from survivors, their skills sets and perks have been nerfed into oblivion and all perks are now memes, so besides the power, all games feel the same. This is awful.
In regards to console vegetables, it's absolutely awful. Very rarely do I see someone that plays on console loop around an object more than once. I don't know if it's an FPS problem or the skills just haven't been sharpened the same way PC survivors have. My last game today, I got into a game with 2 console players running no mither. haha memes.
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My argument wasn't only based on prevalence. That was part of the argument. My argument was based on gameplay interaction, having hope that you could still escape, and that keys are very easily counterable through killer behavior. Behavior such as tunneling, franklins demise (which saw a really big buff), and dodging lobbies.
I got into a game with a iredescent head huntress today and I didn't cry about it or think it was unfair. She needs to devote 2 add-ons just to be able to make them even viable, which then allows her windup and reload speed to be base level, which makes her very loopable.
Still, I don't know how you could compare an insta-down to an escape method, when at least 1-2 survivors and 4 gens have to be down before key even becomes a little viable. This gives the killer plenty of time to devise a method to get the key out of the game or kill the survivor. This is even if you don't decide to use any of the other methods I stated before.
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I was going to respond and try to counter your point, but you alienated a majority of the community when you insulted Console players. I have found, in my MANY games, that Console Survivors and PC Survivors are almost exactly the same. PC Survivors are more likely to try to 360 me, while Console Survivors generally hear me coming and run away first. That's pretty much the only difference I can see.
Keys (and Mori's) are fundamentally imbalanced. Keys allow for a Survivor (or multiple Survivors) to escape in a scenario when they should have lost AND, it will likely force the Killer to lose Rank. It punishes the Killer for something completely out of their control. Likewise, Mori's punish Survivors for simply existing. Neither of these are healthy for the game, and they need to be changed.
Most times I see Keys, it is because of a last second swap. I simply do not have time to equip Franklin's Demise. If I try to tunnel the Key user out of the game, I lose, since I am not pressuring the other 3 people and, the Key is not destroyed. If I do nothing and play like normal, they will get out via Hatch, even if I close it.
Keys are not in every match, I am not sure I have ever heard ANYONE say that. Keys are just about as common as Mori's. You don't see a Mori every match, just like you don't see a Key every match. It usually falls to about 1/20 matches I'll see either a Key or a Mori. Regardless, the frequency of an item appearing has little to do with it's power. If Ebony Mori's only showed up once every 25 BloodWeb's, they'd still be OP.
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You need to stop thinking of the game as a 1v1 and realize it's a 1v4
Tunneling is not viable because you lose. Sure you probably kill that 1 survivor. But now you lose and depip.
Dodging is a terrible argument and you know it is. Again. I bring up what I said before. If something is balanced because it can be dodged why not have an item that just instantly completes all 5 gens. I mean. If you see it just dodge right?
Lastly. I wasn't comparing them. Stop straw manning. I'm saying that prevalence is not a good argument for balance. Because what if there was an item that existed that instantly won the survivor team the game and gave them 32k bloodpoints but it was so rare it only shows up on 1% of games. Is that fair? Is that balanced? Is it healthy? No. It's not.
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Now you're just being hyperbolic. Nobody said the game is "1v1" - I never made that argument. However, what I did was give you a very valid way to get a key out of your game, which is tunneling the survivor off hook or bringing in franklins demise. Franklins is now a very strong perk because it could just completely delete the key from the game and it is very hard to locate items on the ground now because of the artifacts on the map and the size of keys.
If you want to talk about "fair and balanced" lets start first at a killer who can teleport all across the map after a hook and then insta regress a gen by 25 percent or that could drop infinite slow down puddles around a single loops. Or maybe a killer that you can't interact with because she is able to become invisible and just locate you based on sound, haha mindgames.
Still, this isn't a discussion about that, it's about key. I gave you way to counter key that I feel are easy, you don't. I disagree with your assessment and you disagree with mine. That's going to happen in grown up world.
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And now you show your true colors. You are an entitled survivor main that doesn't actually care about balance.
I'm a nurse main with 1k hours and constantly talk about how I want nurse nerfed because objectively she is too strong.
I also want moris fixed because they objectively break the game. If you can't see how keys do that then nothing I say will change your mind.
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The only entitlement I ever see is the never ending forum posts about how every survivor kit needs to be nerfed. And people were very successful in lobbying that. The survivor experience continues to degrade every single patch. I'd love for them to bring out kill ratios at this point, because they were about 70 percent last year.
I don't know about "true colors". What you feel is "balanced" isn't what I feel is "balanced".
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No, keys do not give you a 7% speed boost for 120 seconds when all 5 gens are done.
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He...didn't attack the killer playerbase whatsoever, and as for the console part: it rings true, tbh. Unless it's a toxic 4 man or the odd actual good console killer, almost every time I've had console players in my game, they've been a big hinderance to the role they're playing.
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You're the player who teabags and points every time a killer makes a mistake and says "gg to ez get good bby killer" in the endgame chat, aren't you? That's the kind of vibe I'm getting from this post.
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While I don't think it's the best 'strat,' tunneling regularly nets bad killers easy wins, even in red rank games.
keys are an issue, and I hope that when they and moris finally get changed, they still give a glimmer of this 'hope' mentioned by the OP while not being so gross to go against.
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I like keys, but they need reworks. In order to rework keys, we need to rework the hatch. In order to rework the hatch, we need to dig deep into the mechanics of the late-game and add onto what already exists so they the game is fair for both sides, and also fun to play.
Keys need some requirements to be met before opening the hatch, and they also need a delay before the hatch pops open. That's the simple change we can make, but there's so, so much more that needs to be done before we can put this situation to rest. I've been screwed by keys from both my foes and teammates because they had it without me knowing, or abandoned me in a losing game.
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It isn't true, people don't seem to realise with console players that it's the player, not the platform.
In a casual game of dbd, PC gives barely any advantages.
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Right, but on average, common experience is that people from those platforms tend not to act very experienced, which is the point. I didn't at all point toward the issue being the platform itself.
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See, I agree. The Entity loves to feed off the feeling of hope. That's why she made keys. Keys give survivors hope. Hope to find one in a chest hope to find a hatch and escape with a key. Also it gives Killers hope. Hope survivors don't bring a key. Hope survivors don't find one in a chest.
On the flipside The Entity made Moris for Killers to give them hope that they will most likely kill the survivors. And hope to the survivors that the killers won't bring them.
Keys + Moris are all hope provided by our loving Mother in the sky. See how she loves us??? 🌈
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I love how your solution is to use a perk to tunnel the keyholder while just mentioning how great ds is to not get tunneled.
Not to mention what a losing strategy tunneling is.
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Considering the survivors are the power role and have their wittle hands held by the devs, i dont think they need any more hope. Keys should let one survivor out, and mori should only work on death hook.
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Insulting, condescending, whatever, don't know what to tell you if you don't see it.
The console part isn't true in the slightest. There's both good and bad players regardless of platform.
And a free advice for you and op: turn crossplay off if console players ruin your precious experience.
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Right, I'm going to point out something you don't understand I'm saying: this is the average experience of the common player. That said, some of the best survivors I've come across were sweat squads from crossplay, and I've seen a couple of insane console killers, but for the most part this isn't the case.
I don't care to remove them from my games; I honestly don't personally care - this is just observation that will likely change as time goes by and more people on different platforms have more time to learn the game. Fact is, I shouldn't be seeing people I perceive as a 'baby' in my games at rank 1, in either role, but I do on the regular. My experience is more an issue with matchmaking / ranking than it is with the platform, I'm well aware.
But ok, go be offended by observation of a demographic. :)
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Have you ever had that moment when you played extremely well and 3 survivors suddenly escaped through the hatch because they found a key? Probably not, because you would have never written this if you did.
Are you even aware how often people get a key when they use Plunderer's? I used it last week to farm items and I was disgusted that I got a key every second match. That's definitely not okay. And as far as I know killers can't find random Mori's in the game :)
Keys are bad for the game and so are Moris. But if the Killer that uses an Ebony Mori is bad, your whole team can still escape. Escaping through the hatch doesn't need any skill though. Doing gens is the easiest thing in the game and if you don't do enough gens, who cares, people just have to die. It's just hitting a button in the end and you magically can bring up to 4 people out of the game. Killer already closed the hatch? No problem if you have a key. It's hilarious xD
Keys are not bringing hope to the game, they are destroying well deserved wins.
Play both sides my friend. You clearly have no clue what is really happening in red ranks.
Post edited by Chechia on6 -
mori are also essential part of the game(being a horror game and all) so what your point.
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You’re quite wrong. These maps are small-medium in size and killers are fast enough to patrol the generators too easily. Add Mori’s and OP ad ons that down survivors way too easily and this is always going to be a killer sided game. Pallet count and spawn locations are usually not good in each game. Killers lunge and land hits around walls that are really small and vaults are almost broken in favor of killers. Especially with the lag spike you get hit with after vaulting that freezes your screen and gives the killer plenty of time to walk around and put you down. A lot of Killers are still really OP in this game. They don’t need Mori’s. Keys are essential because Restricting survivors to only one way to get out is so wrong. I think a lot of people would quit. It’s so easy to patrol gens that there are too many games where the last gen just won’t get done regardless of 3 genning yourself.
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Mori’s are not necessary to win. I hardly use them and I do fine most of the games. 3-4K every game
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I feel like I've read something similar to this except for Moris. The killer main said something like I only bring a Mori as insurance so that if a match goes south I still have a chance. I think that discussion was more about survivors insulting the killer for bringing the Mori and not using it.
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This very obvious bait is very poorly done. You can do better, friend.
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Keys are the second worst game mechanic in Dead By Daylight. Ebony Mori's are worse, but if I play killer like I do probably about 75-80% of the time... I can make sure they stay out of my games. Keys? Not so much.
Here's what keys actually do to the game. I like to think that I'm the sort of killer you hope you get in your games. I mostly don't camp, I'll go for the unhooker every time, I don't tunnel, and if I can't find the unhooker or you do something stupid right after you get unhooked... well... I won't leave you be, but I will slug you and not really interfere with anyone coming to pick you up. The only time I do camp is when all 5 generators are done and 3-4 survivors are still alive... but at that point I literally have no where else to be. Also I don't hard core face camp because proxy camping in those scenarios can cause really scrappy end games which are fun. Keys punish literally all of that behavior. I've literally had a friend who also plays Killer point blank tell me I'm too nice when I play Killer. Do you know how infuriating and disheartening it is to play that way and end up with either a 0k or a 1k because it got to or near end game, I'm preparing for a maybe scrappy last stand in the end game an OH WAIT all the survivors just popped the hatch and are gone. It is legitimately the worst part of the game (except getting tunneled with a Mori).
Now... that's how Keys make me feel... I don't want to feel that way. If I notice that you brought a key into my lobby? Literally every ounce of that niceness evaporates. You are going down and going down as hard as I can possibly pull off, which... since I've been maining Deathslinger as of late, is usually pretty darn hard. I just got out of a game where a Jake brought a key into the trial. He left the trial with 2325 blood points. He didn't get to play the game and I don't feel bad about it. Also yes, yes I will 100% lose the trial just to send a message about that key I saw you bring.
Does that sound like a good effect on the game to you?
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Most console players are not that bad. Maybe you’re just having bad luck.
Post edited by SnakeSound222 on0 -
You've won an award!
This award goes to (Acsended4Head) for (writing the most ignorant and biased thread on the forums). Here's your reward!!!!
📎 A PAPER CLIP!!!
Enjoy.
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Hey, that's that paper clip that you stole from me! 😱
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How do i counter a key some dude found i a chest with plunderers?
Moris and keys are not comparable powerwise, but both of these elements shorten the match duration in an unfair way. So rework both and everyone's happy.
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Keys absolutely don't make it so you can't lose and they are not in the same league as Moris for that reason.
You don't need to just tunnel the person with the key the second you see them. You can just play well and keep up pressure so that the hatch doesn't spawn until very late. You can bring a map offering for a very killer-sided map so that the hatch is only likely to spawn for the last survivor. You can start to tunnel the person with the key later in the game if the hatch is already going to spawn soon. You can use Franklin's, which will waste a ton of their time if they're backtracking for their key, and which could cause them to lose it entirely. You can bring a Mori to massively swing the tide in your favor and make it extremely unlikely for the hatch to be in play until three survivors are dead. You can even simply leave the lobby and requeue if it really bothers you that much. Meanwhile, Moris do not have counters beyond looping well and hoping the killer is bad and that they don't tunnel.
Green or pink moris should make just about every match you play into a 3k + hatch or a 4k. Keys will only make a difference for a minority of survivors in a minority of matches, and unlike Moris, they don't massively change how the match plays out; they pretty much only change the very end. Often you either die before you get to use your key, or you lose it to Franklin's, or you win so handily you have no need to use it, or you were already the last survivor and escaped through the open hatch. However, bringing a key always means that you can't bring a more useful item, like a medkit, and are therefore at a disadvantage in the match if you're not in a situation where you really need to escape through the hatch. That also means survivors can't pair it with other extremely strong item/add-on combos, like syringes/styptics or BNPs. Meanwhile, Moris are in the offering slot. The offering slot is pretty much for 1) extra BPs, 2) tiny buffs/debuffs like changing hook density, changing luck, changing mist, spawning survivors together/apart/away from the killer, etc., or 3) map offerings, which can change your odds of survival, but which don't impact the progression of the match once it starts. And then there's the Mori, which is stronger than any other item/add-on/perk/offering in the game. Iri Head + Infantry Belt can still be paired with a Mori. Rusty Shackles / Mint Rag Hag can still use a Mori.
Keys are very strong, but they're borderline fine. If I were really trying to survive at all costs I would definitely rather have a medkit than a key. They're more useful in most matches, and they have the added benefit of not getting you Mori'd/Franklins'd/tunneled.
TL;DR, I disagree with the equivalence that people are trying to create between keys and Moris. Moris are the most powerful inventory element in the game and they're used in the weakest slot. Keys are strong but borderline fine.
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Most times I see Keys, it is because of a last second swap
That almost never happens to me. Rank 1 killer. Keys are rare in the first place, but usually if people are running keys they commit to it.
Keys are just about as common as Mori's
I disagree anecdotally, but I haven't done the math for purple keys versus green moris. Still, I can say definitively that ebony moris are about twice as common as pink keys because of how bloodweb rarity works. Killers only have 2 (Huntress) or 3 (everyone else) ultra rares that can spawn in the bloodweb, one of which is a mori. Survivors have 5, one of which is a key (and it used to be more than that when shards existed!). Killers also earn BPs faster, so they progress through bloodwebs faster, and accumulate Moris faster. Survivors may get to bring keys in multiple matches, so that would make back some of the difference, but usually it's a one and done; you'd either have to be using the right very rare add-on to save your key if you die / use it, or you'd have to escape without using it.
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It's too cheap for my taste. I don't care if I benefit from it, it shouldn't be in the game. Hatch already gives free escapes to the last person, and keys do the same but even earlier.
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Maybe it's more common on Console, but the majority of times I see a Key, it is a last second swap or they find it in game, with the latter being extremely uncommon.
Again, just going off of my own experience, I see Mori's maybe once every twenty-ish games and I see Keys on a pretty similar basis. Not common at all, but definitely still present.
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Moris only every twenty-ish games sounds amazing lol, yes please XD
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I didn't steal it! I borrowed it.
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Smooth brain
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The key to happiness is to not argue with stupid people.
I just cut it short and say "I agree with OP." in the post below.
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I agree with OP.
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Mori's are a key essential part of the DBD gameplay, besides they bring another dynamic into the gameplay and would be absent without them. It makes the killers and survivors both think differently and allows another element into the gameplay.
Why is this a bad comparison? You can counter mori's: don't get caught it is that simple, just never get hooked bring sabotages as a team, make sure nobody gets more than a single hook stage before all the gens are done. It is easy.... just do that and nobody gets killed.
How often do you play killer? How often do you believe that on top of defending the gens, trying to hook 10-12 times in a game and place map pressure upon the game do you think killers have the luxury to just get another fun, experience of having to deal with another means to escape? Sorry, but frankly you just sound ignorant on how it is to play a killer.
You believe that survivors don't have the advantages in the game overall? Surprisingly the queue times for survivors are higher than that of killers, why would that be? You only need a single killer while you need 4 survivors to fill up a match, yet people are waiting for the single role... it is so great to play the more powerful side and those usually have longer queue times in games.
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Don't say its bait you'll get jailed
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Wait are you for real?
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thread like these make wonder why I stay.
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Yeah, over a week ago called a dude's thread bait and was jailed. Didn't care besides the fact i couldn' make thread but yeah. Actually happened and i don't want anyone to suffer that fate lol
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What about the killer? They clearly played well, why should they not get their kills? If you want to talk about hope, what hope does the killer have? Counterplay? There isn't any, not really. That's like saying "do bones." The only counter that doesn't benefit the survivors more than if the key hadn't been in play in the first place is to dodge the lobby or bring an Ebony Mori.
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