Gen regression/defense is EXTREMELY outdated
I'll start by giving some context and justifying the current design for base gen defence before going into my points. I started playing nearly 4 years ago, when even the most skilled survivors still weren't nearly as optimal as top percentage are these days. I remember I used to rely heavily on infinites and optimising a TL wall and the like was much less known of. Whenever survivors got injured or unhooked, they usually tried to get somewhere safe to heal and get back in the game. We also had Ruin, which helped massively give everyone another objective, and I clearly remember me and my friends had a designated Ruin person every match. In these times, killers had time to kick a gen and expect to get decent regression on it; most survivors wouldn't even go out of their way in a chase just to tap a gen, we just all weren't as sweaty as we are now.
Now let's get back to 2020 where everyone who's not a complete noob at the game knows safe tiles, fast vaults and optimising pallets in the game. There is absolutely NO point to kicking a gen unless you have PGTW/Surveillance/ ToT since you gain no real benefit from it. It is nearly impossible in the current state of the game that NO ONE will touch a gen that is 50% done in the span of TWO whole minutes. That's a quarter of what top ranks games last, and when survivors are all constantly working on a different generator unless they're being chased, it becomes absolutely ridiculous how pointless kicking a gen is. And I think there's two main issues that can be solved to give every killer a chance to defend gens, instead of having to rely on perks as they always do.
First of all, gen tapping should NOT be a thing; period. It doesn't matter if you're in chase or not, if the killer has to sit through a 2 second animation JUST to kick the gen then survivors should have to hold the gen for that exact amount of time to stop it from regressing any further.
And second of all, like I said killers have to waste time just to get a gen to START regressing and on top of this survivors have absolutely NO penalty for tapping gens over and over and over again. A survivor can probably stop a gen from regressing 8+ times in A SECOND. While a killer has to take more than twice that amount of time to just kick ONE. Survivors should have to decide wether to give the killer more of a chance to regress a gen (if they're already patrolling an area, they're again WASTING time they should be using elsewhere) or engage in a chase. When kicking a gen, EVERY killer should instantly have it regress 5%.
These two changes in my opinion should be enough to make gen regression speeds more fair, since I don't wanna increase the rate at which they regress because it would mess up other perks like Ruin/PGTW/Surge and we all know it takes BHVR a year to balance one perk, I can't imagine having to balance another 5+.
TLDR: Either gen regression speed gets buffed up drastically (and perks adjusted accordingly) or survivors lose their ability to one tap gens freely a million times with no repercussions.
Comments
-
Your post is why I run overcharge and pop on most of my killers.
3 -
Yeah, kicking gen is an outdated mechanic from the initial game release and they haven't changed almost nothing about it.
That's why I hate kicking gens without certain perks, it's useless, you're just wasting precious time, it helps more the survivors than the Killer itself, its ridiculous.
10 -
It is really upsetting, most of the times in a large map, a gen will pop even before you get near it and you gotta sweat to protect the others. The game needs to get more skillful for the survivor side, the whole survivor experience is filling bars of gens, bars of healing, bars of totens... But anyways... I really like the idea of the gen getting regressed when you kick it, but it has to have a anti spamming mechanic, otherwise it would be like the survivors that can instanly stop regressing just by touching it, the killer could make it regress a lot in no time, but that's because of the poor filling bars mechanic that the survivors have, in my opinion.
But the anti regressing touch of the survivors needs to be looked at...
2 -
I agree that regression rates need to be looked at
But I also have other ideas to help
Increase the base regression rate from 0.25 to 0.50 (the same as new Ruin) taking 2 seconds to kick a gen should have more regression applied
Give Brutal Strength Extra regression (so it's faster and adds more regression on top of it) like 5% regression and kick 50% faster
Make skillchecks appear when touched by a survivor but fail it by letting go (causing more regression)
8 -
Pop, sure. Overcharge? Nah.
1 -
I've thought about this as well to be honest, but I don't know how this would affect Ruin. Maybe it's still worth it since it's already saving you the time of manually kicking the gen, but would that still be strong enough to be a Hex?
Also, I would be very much against buffing it, it would be insanely oppressive.
0 -
That would make the game completely unplayable for rank 20-13 survivors. Killers kick gens MUCH more frequently in low ranks and many survivors actually struggle with Overcharge. I think base regression just needs to be turned up by at least 50%. Would give killers a bit more slowdown diversity against top teams. Surge would become a lot more effective.
1 -
0.5 regression would be waaaay to much.
Killers that force a 3 gen with this would be insanely hard to beat
2 -
True it just feels like a waste of time to actually kick a gen but then on the other hand if you don't do it you might miss out a chance of regressing the gen.
0 -
kick gens is an outdated mechanic, but its better then how it was at release, because kicking gens wasn't always a mechanic
kicking gens was released in 1.4.0 and at that time not only did it take 3 seconds to damage a gen instead of 2 the gens could only regress up to 25% over a period of 70 seconds
kicking gens is only in its worst state because survivors have adapted
1 -
No it's not...
That's what new Ruin works
And it's applied to kicking a gen... with gen tapping a thing it won't matter the rate of regression so why not
3 gen strat doesn't work all the time...
So why is it too much?
Also .25 regression take a total of 336 seconds to fully regress an gen that was 99%
.50 regression would take a total 158 seconds to fully regress a gen at 99%
what's the harm in trying it out
7 -
100% agree with this.
There is absolutely no killer that is guaranteed a win just by 3 genning. If 3 survivors are doing the 3 remaining gens not even nurse can get them fast enough (given they're cautious and not complete potatoes).
1 -
I just edited it to show what regression does... lol
There're killers that work well in a 3 gen strat but it's not the normal thing done
0 -
yup! its ridiculous how long it takes for a gen to regress to zero. Ive had hundreds of matches where i kick a gen at 70%, get 5 survivors hooked, go back around and the gen is till at 30%.
Regression should be faster and gen tapping should not be a thing. Survivors should get the same bar killers get when kicking a gen, and a mandatory skillcheck after they fill it.
1 -
I just posted my take on a new hopefully easy to understand mechanic that tackles the OP point, if you guys want to take a look:
2 -
I agree. Dealing with gen tapping and how slow base regression is would be a great way to give killers more abilities to slow the game down without actually having to increase gen time.
My opinion: tapping a gen no longer stops regression if you let go before you repair at least 3 charges. Base regression increased from 1/4 what a survivor can do to 1/3 and make kicking a gen auto regress it by 1-2%. Adjust perks as required to insure no power creep on things like ruin/pop.
1 -
I read something similar to this a few months and I think it would really make a drastic difference without actually changing much. I think it's crazy how scared the devs are to tweak gens when it's VERY clear there's a problem going on if every killer relies on gen defence to have a chance at winning. The fact Ruin+Undying became meta INSTANTLY is a very obvious example of this.
1 -
No. The post is about not needing to run perks to fix base game mechanics. Old ruin was a good example.
1 -
Well, I think there should just be more perks that will help you find survivors and kill them quicker. That would be nice.
0 -
I agree, Killer shouldn't be forced to run certain perks just to compensate a problem the game has, wanting or not, the damage generators needs afsp a change, it's useless in the actual state, it's easy to progress gens but it's hard to make them regress. I know devs don't want to increase gen times because tha'ts boring, but Killer needs a way to properly regress gens without relyong on external sources, it needs to be fixed in the base game.
0 -
You should be able to hit the gen with your weapon (as in the same way you'd hit a survivor, no locked animation or progress bar) to get a current kick's effect (i.e. just begin regression at the quarter regression rate) and then do a kick to get instant 5% regression plus Ruin-level regression.
And no, manually kicking gens would not make Ruin substantially weaker, because on top of saving time, it still auto-regresses people any time they get off gens, which includes going for saves, heals, and the like.
0 -
Would be funny if you shove your weapon into it to regress it 40% at the expense of being electrocuted for 5 seconds 😅
Joking aside, perhaps the next killer should have some kind of stall mechanic such as a booby trap or some kind of feature like that.
0 -
I forget which streamer said it, but it was basically like: "Never make fun of bad/chill survivors. They're the only reasons killers keep playing." I couldn't agree more.
The way the game is currently structured, if all survivors on a team are efficient - meaning 1 is being chased, 3 are working gens... one is being hooked, 2 are working gens, closest one is freeing (or doing gens if killer is camping), the killer is almost definitely going to lose and more likely than not, going to get zero kills.
So all those Survivors running meme builds, not always on gens, trying fun stuff and not perfecting their looping skills, thank you - you're the only reason this game still works.
3 -
Kicking gens wasn't actually a mechanic when the game first released. They didn't add it in until around the 6 month mark iirc. Before then there was nothing you could do to regress gens.
I agree with the OP. The way to balance the game in its current state isn't to make gens take longer (survivors don't want to spend even more time holding m1) but to improve the killer's capacity to delay and regress gens. I like the idea of not being able to tap gens to stop it from regressing.
0 -
I like the first idea. Second idea of having gens regress at ruin level if you kick them is a HARD no from me. The 5% would be cool though. Ruin level regression would be far too much, especially against killers who only play to force a 3 gen. These are already 20 minute stalemates we don't need them becoming even worse.
0 -
I don't even have to read the whole post. You have my vote up.
Express matches are a big issue. Kicking gens is really useless without pop.
0 -
I think a survivor should instantly get a normal skillcheck when they stop the regression of a generator, so tapping generators midchase atleast has a consequence to them.
1 -
That's a great idea. Why its not yet implemented? I feel like it should have been here from ages.
1 -
One thing you don't seem to remember is that regressing gens was added to the game after bhvr realized survivors could just 99% gens and the killer would feel absolutely helpless; regressing gens without perks shouldn't be a viable strategy.
0 -
Just because it was much worse that doesn't make it fair now? Your statement is extremely hypocritical too.
Survivors have every single tool in the game to win/come back from any situation but killers have to rely on perks? If you can't see how insanely one sided that is then I can't help you.
1 -
Cause killers don't really like?? Have the chance to have 2nd chance perks? Like what would that be? Automatically calls on the entity to add another hook state to the survivor with the least amount of hooks and down them once there is 1 more gen remaining?It's the Adrenaline noed thing again,but Adrenaline rewards you for being able to survive enough to maybe get a boost and NOED just gives you a boost allowing you to get one free hook at the very least.
0 -
I genuinely did not understand a single word of your rambling. Killers don't like what? Exactly where did you get the idea that this is a "2nd chance killer perk" thread? Then you talk about NOED? Which, again, I have NO IDEA how it relates to the topic but you think I defend it even though I think it's one of the most poorly designed perks in the game?
You're making zero sense and I'm not sure you even understand the topic at hand.
1 -
Huh. I thought this post was going to be about how the mechanic of gen regression is outdated because killers can do it too often. Did not think you were going the other way. So, no.
But, I am in favor of a 5% instant regression if passive generator regression is slowed by 50%, because it's the long-term stuff that's really out of whack with balance. The short term stuff (which I guess you're mainly talking about) could be more impactful, possibly, but standing still in front of the generator often works just as well. The survivor will stick around, and you'll be able to keep an eye on the gen until you finally decide to start chasing a survivor after the other survivors have abandoned the gen to try to get progress done on another one.
0 -
So you're saying a gen should regress (without any help) from 99% to 0% in 480 seconds?? SIX minutes? There's games where gens don't even last five, how would this be in any way balanced? Sure, you can stay near a gen and wait for it to regress a mere 10% in 24 seconds but that's 24 seconds you're giving every single other survivor on a gen to do a gen. So 24 seconds of waiting for ONE to regress 10% is giving THREE gens a free 30% progress, which is basically an entire gen (90% combined). I still think this is extremely unfair and gives killers zero options to come back from a situation like that.
3 -
This post still needs more attention.
0 -
The main problem with kicking a generator is that there is no punishment to the Survivor. All they have to do is get right back on it and they undo the regression without a single second inconvenience the way the Killer has to go through the kick animation. I'd like to see an animation where they have to spent 2 seconds un-regressing it.
1 -
if the killer has to sit through a 2 second animation JUST to kick the gen then survivors should have to hold the gen for that exact amount of time to stop it from regressing any further.
Completely agree. That's fair and logical, the current system doesn't make any sense at all.
When kicking a gen, EVERY killer should instantly have it regress 5%
Makes a lot of sense, and it's realistic.
If you are kicking a gen but you aren't doing any dmg to it, seems unlogical as #########.
3 -
I know the kicking action supposedly takes 2 seconds, but unlike actions like hooking or breaking pallets that automatically carry themselves out, kicking a generator requires you to hold down the button for at least 2 seconds if not longer in order to complete the action. This effectively means it takes more like 2.5-3 seconds to kick a gen.
The gen kicking animation need to be reduced to 2 seconds by default and carry itself out automatically. It can still be 3 seconds if using kick related perks like ToT, Dragons Grip, PGTW, etc.
Survivors need to commit to a generator for 2 seconds in order to halt the regression. If they disconnect at 1.9 seconds, it continues to regress.
That alone would be a huge improvement. There would be less of a penalty for kicking a gen (up to an extra second to continue chase) and survivors would have to think twice before 'tapping' a gen, as those 2 seconds could easily get them killed.
0 -
The reason kicking a gen isn't carried out automatically is so you don't get stuck doing it when you chase a survivor. Imagine if you were chasing and they looped you around a gen and you accidentally hit your action button and oops now you are kicking the gen and the survivor knows this and runs away while you automatically and uncontrollably kick the gen due to a unintended button press. It would be infuriating.
0
