Kill Switch update: The Mastermind has been Kill Switched due to an issue with Virulent Bound. The Mastermind will be re-enabled once this issue is fixed.

The Amanda's Letter add-on for The Pig has been Kill Switched due to an issue with incorrect RBT count.

http://dbd.game/killswitch

This is why I'm concerned for the next phase of the MMR.

The MMR was wildly inconsistent when it was first implemented as high-ranking players would be matched against newer and/or casual players far too often, which prompted the devs to turn it off.

The devs keep saying that the MMR continues to collect data in the background, but given how poorly implemented matchmaking is in DBD, how can we trust anything to be different?

So long as matches continue to look like the one I had last night, then you're still going to have players being matched with one another that shouldn't be. How can you fairly calculate wins and losses when you have players that are 10 levels or more apart from one another? I've always been a casual DBD player so my level was never that high to begin with, but with rank reset having just occurred, these players were most likely all rank 1. And the fact that this happened with crossplay on, makes this outcome look even more ridiculous.

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  • twistedmonkey
    twistedmonkey Member Posts: 4,307

    This is exactly why a new matchmaking is needed.

    It's not hard to get and get some sort of system by looking at certain stats and I would think they are looking at multiple things within the game itself.

    Hours played compared to whom you verse, length of time to go down or down someone, how many hooks/kills per game versus how many escape, skill checks hit or missed, time spent near the hook while no one is around, going after the same survivor unhooked, length of the game itself etc etc.

    Each little thing within the game can and is a metric to show then how people play and how well someone plays versus another.

  • HEX_MalusGrey
    HEX_MalusGrey Member Posts: 231
    edited October 2020

    SWF will screw this up.

    I can play fairly well in a good team because i get a boost in confidence getting hooked and see everyone is doing gens and/or play strategically and not running around and open chests in front of the killer or take a "protection hit" when the killer only has to walk 5m to the next hook. Brainnzzzzz

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,714

    The new MMR isn't based on rank at all, you can't just "replace rank 14 with MMR 1000" because they're not measuring things the same way. Also the new MMR isn't reset every month like the current system so that part of the complaint is moot under it as well.

    Also keep in mind that even with a solid matchmaking evaluation the game still has a time limit it imposes on itself to match people up. If you're a medium skill killer but the only survivors available are higher rank than you then you're going to be matched up with them rather than keep waiting for a perfect match. And because half of the games involve 2-, 3- or 4-person swfs you'll always have high skill players in swfs with lower skill friends in the same game which also will cause odd looking matchups.

    One thing I'm hoping for out of the new MMR is hopefully it's appropriately increasing the rating of the survivor group based on its swf composition. The more survivors in the group that are in a swf the higher the rating of the survivor group should be as a whole. That way swfs will tend to face tougher killer players than if they are all solo which will help balance out game results between those two types of groups.

    And of course hopefully they've worked out what cause the new MMR to be putting streamers with thousands of hours up against literally brand new players. (My guess is it was some glitch in how they calculated the initial seedings but who knows?)

  • twistedmonkey
    twistedmonkey Member Posts: 4,307

    In theory then swf will have a higher mmr.

    The point was they don't trust the devs to do it.

    My point was valid as we don't know what metrics they will use and rank will mean nothing. We also know right now the matchmaking has been widened which should hopefully change.

    An mmr of 1k then should not meet an mmr of 2k. This means a rank 14 as it is now won't meet the rank 1's if it works.

    Swf should also use the highest rated mmr imo.

  • SweetTerror
    SweetTerror Member Posts: 2,697

    Almo stated that the MMR continues to calculate all the wins and losses in the background so that it can appropriately predict how well it needs to apply to each player. But given how inconsistent the matchmaking is already, how accurate and precise of an MMR can there possibly be?

    I clearly don't have faith in the current matchmaking system, and I don't see how anything will change once the MMR goes live again if the current matchmaking system is what it has to work off of.

  • SweetTerror
    SweetTerror Member Posts: 2,697

    Yeah I just don't know how this is going to work out. It had been a while since I played a killer match, and when I hopped on last night and encountered that ridiculous matchmaking setup, it may have very well turned me off of the game altogether.

  • ExcelSword
    ExcelSword Member Posts: 518
    edited October 2020

    A lot of confirmation bias in this thread, as well as lack of understanding on how probability works.

    People look at the "4%" and decide that is basically an impossible chance to escape. But its not. If a survivor tries to escape off the hook they get 3 chances, so the actual odds are calculated as:

    1 - (0.96^3) = 11.5% rounded up, where 96% is the chance that a survivor does NOT unhook themselves. 11.5% still sounds really low to our human brains, but its actually around the same as 1 out of 9 chances, which is low but not unreasonably so. If I play around 20 games as killer and the last survivor tries to escape the hook, I could expect around 2-3 times they will actually succeed.

    There is also the fact that this chance is only for ONE survivor escaping. But as a killer you face 4 survivors who can all attempt to kobe in a match, Now its unrealistic to assume that all survivors will try to pull themselves off the hook every game, so lets examine one of the more likely scenarios that at least one survivor would attempt this:

    2 survivors are dead, 1 is on their first hook and the final one is getting chased. the hooked survivor attempts to escape and the last survivor might do the same if they get caught:

    1 - (0.885^2) = 21.7%. That's the chance at least one of those survivors will escape the hook, around the same as 1 out 5, a little bit higher. So if I play say 40 games as a killer and end up in this situation where I'm about to win and get a 4K, I could expect at least around 8 - 9 times one survivor unhooks themselves and might get escape alive.

    I think I've made my point pretty clear. Yes its annoying to lose a survivor due to what seems like pure luck, but keep in mind that you are more likely to encounter survivors attempting a kobe as a Killer in general, simply because there are more of them that can attempt it. The game isn't rigged, that's just how the laws of math work in our world.

  • EuphoricBliss35
    EuphoricBliss35 Member Posts: 875

    When I play at night, ranks look like the rainbow. Last night (8pm-11pm) I had multiple games with 2-3 yellow ranks matched with me. Not a problem most of the time, but when going against a rank 1 killer, it just turns into getting multiple saves

  • SweetTerror
    SweetTerror Member Posts: 2,697

    Yeah those rainbow setups are usually intentional. SWF will utilize the lowest rank in the group as a way to get easy wins since matchmaking has a tendency to cater to the lowest rank. Which is why I think that if the MMR detects a SWF, then they should be purposefully matched against a higher ranked killer.

    What I encountered last night however, didn't make a lick of sense. No joke, I would really like to play more killer matches, but knowing that DBD will throw any killer regardless of rank into a match, turns me off of the game altogether.

  • lowiq
    lowiq Member Posts: 436

    Matchmaking is really weird - often caused by imbalance on one side.

    When you start a queue, there's a base range that matchmaking looks for. However, every X amount of time, it will broaden the range, until it finds people. Since survivor queues are so long right now, what happens is the range in ranks they are searching for becomes pretty large and matchmaking will just take any killer.

    It's also weird on the killer side since if I queue at Rank 1, I will often get a rainbow. Whereas you see Rank 13s getting a lobby of reds.

    Theoretically speaking, you can use a predictive analysis model to test the MMR system for accuracy. Basically using the MMR of the players to predict the outcome and then checking against the actual result. However, given the last iteration of MMR, it seems like this wasn't put into place. Either way, I don't think MMR belongs in a game like DBD. There's too much randomness and itemization that can skew a match in your favor.

  • SweetTerror
    SweetTerror Member Posts: 2,697

    I think you're half right. As with all things, experience does play into how well you are at something, and obviously the more hours you can invest into a game the better you'll be. That being said, not everybody is a streamer. Most people don't have hours upon hours to invest into DBD. And that's where rng plays a part.

    Perks and map layout can certainly aid both killers and survivors, but if anything I think the MMR should cater more to what "rank" a killer is. If you have a lot of wins piled up with certain killers, then it makes sense to go against tougher opponents with those said killers. I play only occasionally with Bubba, and the fact that I went up against such high ranking survivors makes me never want to try out a killer that I have never played with. Ever.

  • ZaKzan
    ZaKzan Member Posts: 544

    the devs can't even figure out what constitutes skill on this game. MMR will NEVER work when the metric used to determine skill is flawed. I personally would rather have FFA MM where you get matched with everyone of any rank. In the chaos of this MM, balance changes could be made that would ensure you have more games that are fun than games that are unfun. Rank could be a personal thing and there could be rewards for reaching certain ranks to keep people playing.

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,714

    One small flaw in your analysis is that every failure immediately reduces the hook timer and many players intentionally don’t attempt an escape to maximize their time in phase 1 to allow allies more opportunity for a rescue. You can’t attempt to escape three times in a row unless you do it relatively quickly after being hooked, if you wait and try to escape you’ll only get one or two chances before being knocked to stage 2 if you fail.

    So the only survivors that actually potentially use all three chances to escape are the ones that either know their allies aren’t coming for a rescue (because they already escaped or died for instance) or that simply don’t care if they fail or, occasionally, because they have a perk or something that boosts their escape chances. Otherwise the most common scenario is the survivor doesn’t try to escape until possibly the end of stage 1 and only does it once.

  • twistedmonkey
    twistedmonkey Member Posts: 4,307

    It isn't infallible by any means but it has to be better than what we currently have.

    Even with rng spawns good players know what kind of tile it is and play around it prolonging the chase with or without a pallet there.

    Some players will waste more time at an L and T wall than others with 3 pallets close by.

  • MadLordJack
    MadLordJack Member Posts: 8,814

    I'm one of the few people that actually had a good experience with MMR, though I know the majority didn't. I was getting games, as killer and survivor, that were decent. It did start out a bit wierd, but it was all right at the end. So I'm actually hopeful that the fixed MMR system will actually work.

  • Pawcelot
    Pawcelot Member Posts: 985

    BHVR's fantastic track record will make sure that the new MMR system is even worse than the first version of it that we got to experience a few months back. How that's possible is beyond me but I am far too cynical to believe that they'll manage to do something without hiccups.

    Heck, the DC Penalty system is probably going offline soon, once again, because of people exploiting it. And then they'll take it down.. and put it back up in a few weeks and hope those bad people left during that time.. only for it to repeat again.

  • SweetTerror
    SweetTerror Member Posts: 2,697

    I too had a positive experience. Since it gauged killers that you played with, it encouraged me to try out killers that I had never played with before, since I was guaranteed to not be wrecked over and over. I won't be doing that again until it's back on.

  • megswifey
    megswifey Member Posts: 833

    I'm rank 5 and I've been put in teams with brown and green ranks recently and it messes up the game because a lot of the time my teammates are not sure what to do and the generators are frequently left untouched

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,778

    My biggest issue with MMR is that survivors and killers often lose to map RNG. It's so wild to me that we're leaving an RNG system in place that often leaves half of some maps completely barren or completely loads them with jungle gyms while also implementing MMR. Really putting the cart before the horse. What are the survivors supposed to do when the killer gets a 4 gen on one side of Azarov's with one pallet on half of that end of the dogbone? Let's make sure we tabulate MMR on that one.

  • SweetTerror
    SweetTerror Member Posts: 2,697

    It's results like these that make me wish there was a single player mode of sorts. Granted it wouldn't be as competitive as playing with actual people, but if I'm just looking to have some fun, then it would be nice to have a training mode of sorts like what can be found with the mobile version of DBD.

  • SweetTerror
    SweetTerror Member Posts: 2,697

    It's interesting isn't it? We keep getting things like new cosmetics and new graphical updates, but nothing that changes the core mechanics of the game itself. It's like all we ever get is a never-ending supply of Band-Aids instead of an actual fix. How else to explain all the glitches that arise with every chapter implementation?

  • edgarpoop
    edgarpoop Member Posts: 8,778

    Yup. A never ending stack of band aids without correctly addressing the #1 flaw in the game that permeates every aspect: map balance.

  • ExcelSword
    ExcelSword Member Posts: 518

    I understand perfectly well that most survivors don't try to immediately escape. I was simply highlighting the fact that the odds of a survivor escaping and affecting your match as a killer is significantly higher then people realise. I already stated that the likely scenario for people to attempt this is when a game is pretty much unwinnable due to a killer managing to kill at least one or two survivors early, increasing the likelihood that at least one of the two remaining survivors will attempt to kobe.

    The point of my post was to try to show that the odds of any survivor escaping is significantly higher than it appears to our human brains, simply due to how math works.

  • dugman
    dugman Member Posts: 9,714

    I get what you’re saying, I’m just pointing out that the 11% figure only applies when a survivor actually tries to escape up to three times from a hook. For instance your second example of having the third survivor on a hook while chasing the fourth survivor and the third survivor trying to escape is actually not that common because the third survivor is often also on their second or third hook by that point. And even if you then catch the fourth survivor they will only get the opportunity to escape if you have already hooked them earlier in the match. So yes, if you just happen to be in that situation where both the third and fourth survivor can escape and hook them both in turn and they both opt to actually try up to three times then one of them will escape about 21% of the time. But when you ask what percentage of your games this situation occurs it will actually be a fairly small proportion (1/8 or less?) and of those a survivor only pulls themself off roughly 1/5 times. Thus you’re looking at this happening once every 40 games or so if that 1/8 guess is about right?

    Of course I understand your point is that people see 4% and just think “it never happens” without thinking it through. But that ideal 11% probability of escape for a survivor or 21% of one escape for two survivors are a bit misleading since the situations where a survivor is immediately spending all their escape attempts are a minority of games so you wouldn’t see them in anything close to 11% or 21% of your total games.

  • SweetTerror
    SweetTerror Member Posts: 2,697

    I would certainly appreciate less RNG in the bloodweb, that's for sure! Having to grind millions upon millions of blood points just so that I can get the perks that I want is one of the worst things about this game.