State of play is survivor sided
BHVR's silence regarding survivor-sided balancing
The game is widely regarded to be Survivor sided by many people for a long time now. Why hasn't BHVR addressed this?
And moreover, why haven't they even tried to *deny* it?
It seems like they are avoiding the subject of the Survivor-sided balancing completely. Why?
I'm not out here calling conspiracy theories, but this is honestly really suspicious. The game has been in this state for a long time. Most recently they even nerfed Thanatophobia after saying they were going to buff it. They were so conservative with the changes. Why?
Many killers are significantly better than others too, to a very obvious extent. Just look at the difference between Spirit and Legion, or Oni and Clown. Why won't BHVR buff the weaker killers? Why won't they make the game harder for survivors?
And again - why do they avoid all communication on this topic every time it's discussed?
EDIT: someone else mentioned these things not me but are great points imo
not to mention the camo $$$ cosmetics
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As you said, it's all money.
Gen speeds are just ridiculous. Every other game 2 gens are done in the first minute.
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I think Survivor sided is fairly obvious and It is just something you need to live with. You don't like it. Find another game.
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There was an error rendering this rich post.
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Have you read the lame excuse they gave for nerfing PGTW?
The nerf they gave it was actually the nerf people have wanted to happen for DS, yet they apply the nerf to PGTW instead with the claim, “killers had too much time to do things in between using PGTW and other objectives....” nobody complained about PGTW like they did DS.
If that doesn’t speak, “survivors spend more money on this game so they are priority” then I don’t know what does.
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I get a rich post comment, of course. I'll try and summarise what I said above but here. Please keep in mind my original answer was much more comprehensive so if you want me to expand on any of these points let me know and I'll try to remember what I said.:
- The game is much better than before; it used to be ######### busted and it's a miracle killers could get hits at all. The balancing has steadily improved over 4 years of patches, the majority of which over 3 of those 4 years have been helping killers.
- They're significantly more vocal than most other game developers I've seen.
- The thana "nerf" was honestly a buff, every time I hit someone I basically get 16 free seconds of time now because they want to heal, which is nice.
- Clown is actually being buffed/reworked soon, they confirmed it on the dev stream (here's a hyperlinked summary), about 8-9 questions down about add-on dependant killers. So the gap will close, slowly but surely.
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Because despite how much players try to convince you that the game is survivor or killer sided, it's really not that imbalanced. Losses in 99% of games could have been prevented with better play.
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There are four times as many survivors as killers. They have to make the game survivor sided or they would lose players and money.
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credit to @SCP_FOR_DBD
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So nurse needs buffing?
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I think early game is the most important part for most killers and if you don’t get a fast down, it can really alter the outcome. As I use PGTW, I need to get downs fast to make sure I can keep kicking the generators that are being worked on.
Corrupt Intervention should become something different and what the perk does now should be applied to every match. That way survivors still have generators to do, but for a short amount of time, there’s less of them.
Or maybe have a second objective implemented and you have to unlock generators before they can be repaired? So it’s not a case of literally spawning next to a generator with 2 other survivors, which seems to be happening to me A LOT recently.
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those stats are meaningless because of the variables not mentioned in those stats
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Is It a coincidence that all of the deadliest maps happen to also be indoor maps
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I think this forum would be dead if this dead horse thing mattered.
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But if the stats said that survivors are completely overpowered instead of showing killers are, then they would somehow instantly become valid and every single killer main would spam the forums with topics about the said stats. Oh the hypocrisy...
It amazes me how a streamer playing 100 games to prove a point is considered infallible proof because it fits ones agenda but stats across million games somehow are not valid.
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Because the game isn't survivor sided it's SWF sided.
You can keep nerfing survivors all you want but the game just becomes unbearable for solos and that WILL kill the game.
The problem is that base kit survivors need to be given tools that give them the same kind of information swfs have. Only then can you nerf them/buff killers enough to be balanced against swf
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it would be nice with all these new killer powers, WHY is it impossible to give us different trials and just delete the stupid ######### gen objective
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but yeah the newest killer that i paid money for SUCKS and is at the bottom, nbd
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Technically, after playing solo queue survivor with all the potatoes, ppl who give up and ppl who tilt i'd think that if killer was struggling survivors would definitely be op.
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or if problems got addressed instead of ignored then there wouldn't be "dead horse". The ignoring of misbalancing like i said continues
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thank you, this is some good news
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no those wouldn't matter either. Without listing variables the stats are meaningless
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im beginning to think those stats are bs too. Other variables come into play
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thats the entire point. stats are meaningless because those same stats say nurse is weak. Should we buff her based on those stats? hell no. Same thing with OoO? Most survivors die with it so should we buff it? another hell no
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The state of play is not Survivor-sided; it is SWF-sided.
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In this essay we will be exploring just WHY you are wrong.
DS
Ds+Unbreakable
Ds+Ub+Sg
Adren
DH
BT
Killer perks that are fine getting nerfed
Generator speeds
Keys
Being good at looping
Oh, and let's not forget SWF, which gives you all of these for free:
-Kindred
-Bond
-Object, as long as one person brings it
-An almost garunteed win once the hatch spawns
-Communication allowing you to coordinate rescues, Bodyblocks, Gen rushing
-An extra pair of eyes at pretty much all times
-Knowing who the killer is early
-Can potentially garuntee a survivor sided map
-Map (Item)
-Empathy
-Pretty much counters knock out as a perk, but nobody runs that anyway
-Early knowledge of what perks the killer brings
-Deletion of any and all hex perks the killer brings
-Probably more that I forgot
But I guess those aren't problems and I just need to get good, right?
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So we're ignoring the post that I actually replied to in the first place?
Also if that's your only defense, then please stop acting like a child and ignore me if you have no counterarguement.
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Im sorry I play both sides a lot so I'm gonna say my piece this game is only survivor sided if one you get stuck with 4 random survivors that are better than you even then you may get 1 to 2k or you get a swf death squad which most times you may only get 0 to 1k or you just suck at mind gaming amd are a bad killer which then just play killer more and get better 0r you accidentally mind game yourself the whole game but I don't see this game as survivor sided since most games I play as survivor the killer 3 to 4k amd when I play killer I get a 2 to 4k unless a swf death squad is what I get so theres my piece dont get mad for my opinion
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Survivors are 4/5s of their customers. It's more money for them to keep survivors happy. It's all about $$$$$. Pure and simple.
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The game is only balanced when potato survivors exist. Otherwise, gens fly incredibly fast.
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On average, Freddy kills a jaw dropping 3 out of 4 survivors every match at red ranks. I don't think that is survivor sided.
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No I literally could not give a ######### about stats.If the stats say nurse is op i do not care. If stats say ds gives a massive boost to survival rate i do not care. Situations matter, not stats. I already gave examples of where stats were meaningless OoO and nurse. I really do not care about those stats and the fact you insult me over the fact I dismiss all stats is dumb.
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Who said I get below average kill rates? You are now making assumptions
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Matters which stats you talking. Red rank stats yeah it does. The few days i was there i was getting 2k-3k on average. In all ranks i was getting consistent 4ks because i was facing babies if i wasn't in red ranks. So no i get way more than the average in all ranks but its average for red ranks. If we consider the games where i got shat on then its about a 65-70% kill rate
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I play survivor and killer equally, and I can honestly say that if it had to be sided in one direction, it would be killer. I can easily get 4k's without tunneling or camping, but I rarely survive. I got to rank 4 killer from rank 17 in a week of playing, and rank 4 survivor took a over a year (though I didn't play the game as often). It's super easy to get bloodpoints as killer, but insanely difficult as survivor. The killer perks are way overpowered (which honestly I don't mind when playing as killer)
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The game is slightly killer sided, especially if you use the strongest stuff. A lot of killers don't like using the strongest stuff, though, and some just don't have it with them. Others are more than happy to bring a Mori every game, or the strongest add-ons. Which is why the kill rates are probably so high. Survivors have reacted to that, and bring their own OP stuff. Which feels bad for killers who aren't bringing mori's or are running meme add-ons or perks.
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I'll probably get lit up for this, but blanket statements can't really be made about the game's balance as a whole. It really depends on what rank, killer, killer skill level, survivor skill level, and map we're talking about. For what it's worth, I say this as someone who plays the game competitively and often does KYF against competitive SWF sweat teams with 2000+ hrs each instead of doing normal matchmaking.
The game is very killer-sided through green ranks. Survivors don't know how to do anything.
Purple ranks are where a lot of killer players start to struggle as this is the point where they first encounter somewhat decent players.
Red ranks go either way. Really depends on a lot of factors:
-Do the survivors actually know how to loop and path effectively? Usually not. But if they do, then it's fairly survivor-sided on most maps unless you have a killer that can deal with safe pallets, have a very meta build, or both.
-Are you playing Nurse, Spirit, Freddy, Hag, PH, Blight, Billy? You should probably be winning against most teams regardless of your build. You're doing something very wrong if you're not winning most games with these killers.
-If you're on a mid to low tier killer, maps and map RNG make an enormous difference when survivors know what they're doing. The difference between getting crane vs god bus on Gas Heaven is enormous, for example.
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They aren't bogus. They could be the best stats in the world and i would ignore them. Because stats aren't the best thing to use to balance a game. I already said this 3 times but situations matter over stats. Now stats of situations does matter. LIke "If there is an OoO in the game what is the average escape rate of their teammates" or "if a red rank freddy is using pop what is the average kill rate" etc etc
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YES, LETS NERF PIG
LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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The average survivor, and for that matter killer, player is barely cognizant. The issue you bring up is exactly why this game is so survivor sided, and it shows where the devs have chosen to base their balance decisions.
The average killer is better than the average survivor, because the survivor needs to take advantage of their environment to elude the killer. If the survivor cannot take advantage of the environment, they just die.
The game is then tailored to this playstyle, which means at higher skill levels, survivors are completely broken, and there is actual evidence of this, especially with hexy's tournament where the best players played against each other, and the strongest killer players in the game playing the strongest killers could only hope, on average, one kill that they had to tunnel and sweat very hard for.
I really don't know why people think this method of balancing is in any way healthy for a PvP game, and I don't know why you bring up those stats like they mean anything to the balance of the game. I understand that you're afraid of survivors becoming too weak, but the error in your thought is that the things that need changed at high levels survivors at low levels aren't doing, they aren't minmaxing pathing, they aren't getting every second they can out of a loop and then holding shift W when they get hit, gaining as much distance as possible from the killer, they aren't exploiting god windows to their fullest, they aren't running the strongest perks in the game. Low skill survivors are being chased and run down because they inefficiently navigate loops and windows, even if the efficiency of loops and windows were changed, this would still not affect low skill survivors because they aren't even looping in the first place.
Please stop using anything the devs post as a source for your arguments, as they are very very unhealthy for the game, and the devs do not play this game at a level that is required to fully understand it and balance it and they don't take advice from the players that do.
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I mean we could also consider the fact most players play solo which would also boost the kill rate. Then you have the people who play those op items and perks and that negatively affects the kill rate thats the issue. These "stats" do not matter unless its in a specifc situation like Kill rates for killers on azarov's. You see a high ass kill rate and adjust the map accordingly. Killers are way too different to try to buff or nerf them as a whole. And the fact you think i only care about the killer experience is laughable. i played both sides. Highest as a survivor was rank 8 and highest as killer was rank 3. I used to play casual swf with an old buddy and know how bad it is for casuals and solos at that rank. Seriously we got a forever freddy, a slugging nurse, and bunch of impossible skill check doctors all in one night. But i do care for solo since thats all i play. If you look back in my post history you would see my stance on the game
Buff solo to swf level and buff and nerf killers accordingly. At this point im going to say this. In solo every killer goes up a tier or 2. In swf every killer but spirit nurse and freddy go down a tier or 2. And thats the issue. The strength disparity between solo and swf make stats meaningless. Unless you have stats that show killers do consistently well against 4 man red ranks without any moris then i think we are done. I don't care about the average. I care about specific situations. Another reason why stats in this game are meaningless. Map rng.
Im using scott's video because i agree with him. But yeah keep making assumptions i only care about one side and see how many people dismiss your argument. And you used fake news unironically
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We've been through this.
It does not matter if kill rates are 100% or 0%. What matters is the experience. Please give a cogent argument as to why the game should be balanced towards average level play and please elaborate on why you think survivors should be buffed and point to your evidence.
The fact that the stats say pig is one of the strongest killers in the game and nurse is by far the weakest shows a very large discrepancy. The fact that you take anything from those stats glaringly shows your bias.
I will again share this video to you in the hopes that maybe you will watch it and maybe something will click
I will post this video as to my evidence showing how strong survivors are against the strongest players playing the actual strongest killers in the game, being nurse spirit, and to a lesser extent, pyramid head.
But then again, the stats posted are scripture, and any argument against the stats, despite CLEAR evidence disproving them is utter heresy.
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This is not an essay
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Clearly Nurse doesn't need buffs, and that is a good example of why the devs have told people not to treat the stats as gospel. There are other factors that can lead to a lower or higher kill rate than usual, and how hard it is to play Nurse almost certainly results in a lower average kill rate than she is capable of.
When you look at the overall percentage, though, it's hard to reconcile that with the idea that the game is survivor sided. A ~68% kill rate at red ranks suggests that the game is not survivor sided. If we treat a 50% kill rate as perfectly balanced, there would have to be one or more major factors artificially inflating kill rates. The only things I can think of are disconnects (if those are included in the stats) and hook suicides, but do we really think that's responsible for more than 18% of all deaths in DBD? I very much doubt it, especially when there are other factors artificially lowering the kill rate. For example, some killers often give the last survivor the hatch. Also, the hatch always opens for the last survivor now regardless, so you could very feasibly only 3k in a match where no gens were completed.
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Most of these are not problems, though :) Survivors are good at looping, pls nerf. Every survivor meta perk, pls nerf. Devs nerfed Pop/Ruin, survivors OP, pls nerf.
I agree with some of them, and DS in particular. I wouldn't mind some tweaks to Adrenaline and Dead Hard either to make them a bit weaker. Other than that I think pretty much everything else is fine
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which is why the skill level of the player matters in determining balance issues. Since it is too easy to rank up because the devs have no idea what skill is on this game, you have many people in red ranks that shouldn't be in red ranks.
Well coordinated survivors against similarly high skilled killers shows that survivors way overperform at these skill levels. Refer to the tournament I posted above.
You can alter the game in ways that affect high level play that barely touch on lower level play. The devs are unfortunately not skilled enough at the game to do this because they don't know what constitutes skill in this game.
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See thats the thing. Im not arguing this game is survivor sided. Im arguing general ass stats like these are meaningless
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Oh god not this dead meme.
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This, tbh.
A killer vs two duos is the most balanced state a game can be in right now.
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Not even slightly. No sightlines from gens mean survivors can't tell where the killer is coming from. Yhis is great for all killers, but makes stealth killers especially 10x more powerful.
It's also harder for survivors to find gens and more prone to getting lost. Killers can still use gen auras to orient themselves.
Indoor maps also tend to be smaller, which is a major boon to killers.
Finally, indoor maps have fewer super-safe "God pallets".
QED
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Killer main. I am OK with the game being slightly geared toward Survivors. The problem, I think, comes with their scoring system. Ever notice when you get to Green Rank as Killer, your queues become near instant AND you basically never see any survivors who aren't Red or Purple? That's because there's a high ranking killer drought relative to the number of Survivors.
Looking at the scoring system, you can see why. The game is balanced survivor-side, but the scoring system still basically hammers a killer who basically doesn't do a 4K. Hell, I've had games where I've done a 2K, and I'll still depip. Literal 4K games the game rates as a "safety" because I got 5 minute gen rushed and did a NOED snowball. It's like, what??? Because perks like DS/UD exist, and its common that 3 out of 4 survivors run them, you frequently have to forgo a 2nd hook on someone and let them get back up... rather than picking them up immediately, eating a DS, and putting them right back in the game. By playing well, the game scores you as a worse killer.
I'm OK with it being more likely to 1k-2k than 3k-4k... but they really need to adjust what is required for a Killer to rank up, so they stop putting god tier Red 1-4 SWF teams against Rank 12 killers, and then depipping them when they fail to kill more than 2.
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