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"Since then we have made great strides in identifying these loops, and tweaking them-"
Comments
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DS and Unbreakable are not the problem they’re made out to be exactly because they can only be used once. It’s only a problem when killers “fear” them, and try to avoid them, thus allowing survivors to still have access to those perk abilities late game.
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You've clearly never seen those situations turn the entire tide of a game. You're welcome to your honestly naive outlook in regards to them, but it doesn't invalidate the mathematically demonstrable reality that others have experienced. Balance assessment is a combination of anecdotal and factual evidence, you can't have just one or the other.
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While yeah the walls can just be broken, the problem is that the time to break the walls is a cost on the killer.
IE yeah now infinite's are gone, but the killer has to waste extra time removing them all. This is in a meta where the killers are already vastly behind on time compared to the survivors for their objectives.
If the whole breakable walls mechanic was a time sync on the survivor side and an extra objective for them then yeah that would be a more realistic solution.
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imagine if breakable walls didn't exist unless survivors spent time barricading them. It was already hard enough to get them to bother doing bones before undying existed.
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3 seconds is enough for survivors to do all five gens?
Also remember alot of killers either have a rlly fast method of breaking walls or don't even need to break them at all.
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You mean the 4 killers who have an alternate method of breaking walls?
The only ones who don't have the same breaking time are the two who use chainsaws. Demogorgon and blight still take 2.5 seconds to break the wall.
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5.
5 killers (billy, bubba, demo, blight, and technically oni) have an alternate method of breaking walls/pallets. They also arent actually faster than the base animation unless they're prepared beforehand, which gives survivors even more warning that they're going to go for the break. so much so in fact, that it can actually be used as a bait to trick them into leaving the position early.
Oh, i guess wraith can give up a precious addon slot to reduce the animation time a bit as well. goody.
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Not only that, but the chainsaws have a rev time, which slows down the killer to boot. Even of those two, the only one that can be more optimal is billy, assuming he can get enough of a line to get a bit of sprint in before breaking the door.... and even then, the telegraph can be seen from space at that point.
The only real advantage the chainsaw bros have in that regard is in situations where they think they can get a chainsaw, realize they can't (or bubba is already going HAM with his) and they're positioned to instead break the door to not waste it. Fortunately that applies to blight as well technically.
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Yeah, for all five of them it's more of a convenience thing. If you're mid power might as well break it while you're at it.
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Oh yes because killers can instantly break all walls in the map immediately after the game starts in just 3 seconds! They totally don't have to go around the map searching for them to break them so survivors can't loop them infinitely.
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Would be interesting if they at least were more consistent with that.
Like if vommy mommy could use her puke to dissolve them over time, they would break from a few hatchets, Doctor could use a charge at point blank to bust them open, wraith could go through them and uncloak on the other side, anything. Power interactions just feel so awkwardly inconsistent with them. Like, amanda can't even ambush break them ffs.
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You realize bloodlust was added when actual true infinites existed? Maps have been totally nerfed into the ground and I am glad they are finally thinking about deleting it. Now hoping their next agenda is fixing the deadzones!
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If you run into a dead zone that's on you, not the game.
Besides, if you fill every deadzone with a loop current map balance would feel much worse than Ormand currently is.
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Actually learning tiles???? I thought only killers had to do that!
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Apparently not
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Current Ormond is actually a fair map. Everyone is usually not on their bellies before a gen is popped.
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where's that blasted lol button when you need it
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Hoo boy, I don't know how to tell ya this bud... but most everyone agrees that Ormond heavily favors survivors. Even fog whisperers agree that it is heavily skewed towards survivors.
From personal experience the map sucks to play on even as a high mobility killer. There are too many safe pallets.
At least with it's rework it'll be PROPERLY balanced. But then again they're adding absolutely pointless breakable walls to it.
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Ur missing the point. Breakable walls are hardly a game changer unless you don't breka the important ones befor ethe end of the game, in which case that's on u.
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Then there's also the abundance of killers who don't even need to break most of the inifinite walls as well. The point is it's not hard to just get the walls out of the way at the start, it really isnt that time consuming.
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When you guys get camped, game after game after game, I don't wanna hear you complain about it. You guys abuse the ######### out of the loops that are still in the game, and then have the nerve to keep whining to the devs to "fix" the game for you so you can be "as cool" as your favorite content creators. It really boggles the mind why they keep listening to survivor mains only. Like haven't they realized people don't like waiting 10 minutes+ to get a game going on survivor? Do they really think it's still a bug at this point? You've driven a majority of killer players out of the game, or driven them to playing survivor only.
Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on0 -
Abundance of killers? Tell me how the majority of killers don't need to break the walls, which you even admit are infinites.
Which leads me to my next point, the walls require you to go out of your way to break them. If you do them while patrolling, that's 2.5 seconds, plus whatever time it took you to get there spent not patrolling generators. Which means all 4 survivors will most likely be on gens. That means 4 gens will have progress, and you can only go after one survivor.
If you break it in a chase, that will allow the survivors to get more distance on you. Which will allow them to get to another loop, which they can then string together with multiple other loops. This is without taking into account how balanced the loops are.
Do you see how much time it wastes to get it broken? And how the majority of the time it'll be a detriment to spend time breaking them?
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You know killers like clown, doctor, blight, oni, hag, trapper, deathsligner and pyramid head don't need to break them, just to name a few.
Is 2.5 seconds going to be a make or break? Seriously? Often you will just come across these loops as ur patrolling as there is pretty much always a gen in main and thus you're going to go there, or spawn there. I don't understand why killers can't just adapt and move on. I have. It's not that hard at all. Just because something was implemented which prevents you from stomping noobs 24/7 doesn't mean it's a world crisis and the games too survivor sided etc.
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There's only one or two on some maps which you are "required to break" to stop a potential infinite. Seriously half the time you will spawn near main anyways and the other half just go and kick it as you're patrolling the gen at main. Big deal.
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Oh, you must mean Wraith, Plague, Legion, Myers, Pig, Twins, and Ghostface? or the ones with situational counters like Clown, Spirit, Huntress, or Deathslinger? The only ones who can't break doors with their power but can use their power to directly circumvent their strength are Trapper, Nurse, Pyramid Head (namely because his bait still works,) Hag (to a degree,) Freddy (only really with snares,) and Doc.
If all killers had some type of anti-loop in their kit, you'd have a point. A lot of them, even when having some form of anti-loop, can be denied situationally based on tile layout or direct counterplay, and need to make a hard read or lose more time than they would have gained just going straight for the door, making their power usage much more risky. That leaves only 6 killers who can use their power to circumvent infinites, and of those, there is STILL counterplay for most of them.
That means only half the roster has an answer outside of just walking up and kicking the door down, a quarter of them have an answer that basically boils down to "doing just that, but situationally making it faster,) and the other quarter can ignore it at varying levels of risk. wonderful balance ya got there mate.
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You keep missing the point.
The killers time is extremely valuable, with the majority of it being spent in chases. I've already explained how detrimental it is to break those, both in and out of a chase.
While a killer goes out of his way to break those walls survivors will be cranking out gens. This means that effectively, breaking them is a waste of time no matter what.
And don't try to straw man my argument into noob stomping. This has nothing to do with new players.
As for your killers the majority of them can be looped to death around an unbroken wall. The only one who can't is nurse, mainly because she's an exception to most things in the game.
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already included blight and oni in the ones that can break them with a power, and even with oni, its only while he has his fury active.
Clown's built entirely around anti-loop, yet not breaking a door at an infinite can potentially still cause the survivor to get an extra loop they wouldn't be able to get elsewhere, even at jungle gyms. That also means they would have enough room to make it to a pallet if one is nearby, thus extending the chase even further vs a killer whos literal only thing is being as anti-loop as possible. also imagine running out of bottles during that and needing to slow down and reload?
With doctor one mistimed shock (see, survivors jumping through a vault after screaming because reasons) and you've lost more ground than you've gained, leading to another loop of the infinite. over and over until you get it right, or break the door. the reward of timing it right is nice, but the risk is worse than brute forcing the door (or even the loop, ironically.)
Trapper and hag: survivor sees or hears you place the trap, they abandon right away. They've already gained plenty of distance on you, can come back and disarm the trap when its safe to, and in hags case that distance might as well be half the map.
Deathslinger needs to have a clear shot that he can take quickly enough. Considering his movement speed, this isn't always possible, and shots with very tight timing can be predictable enough to easily bait.
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? How is huntress, deathsligner, clown and spirit situational counters? Just shoot or throw or phase if they run to the window.
Alot of the windows aren't even infinites, just windows you have to vault, which at the end of the day wastes 5-10 seconds at most.
If you're struggling THAT much with the windows, then just break the damn walls. It's not hard. And if you really really need to because for some reason it's affecting you that much then put aside 5-10 seconds at the start of the match to break them.
Just because you have to change up you're playstle slightly doesn't mean it needs to be nerfed hard. Survivors have constantly been dealing with fat after fat nerfs (yes alot of them justified) but they've pushed on and i don't see a huge drop in the survivor playerbase. Infact survivors could rightfully complain about all of the new filler pallets which are weak as hell and a free hit/down if the killer has any sense.
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The spirit needs to guess. The guess is generally in her favor depending on the situation, but it is still a guess, and can still be misdirected. Reeeeaaaaalllly don't want to start the "buh spirit no counterplay" argument here, but even putting that aside, she is guaranteed nothing.
Deathslinger and Clown I explained in the other post you might not have gotten to yet, so feel free to check that.
As for Huntress, She is a 110% killer who has a wind up time for her power. She needs to be close enough to have the time to get her windup and throw in time, in addition to actually aiming it properly. One miss, or even one windup and recognizing in time she won't be able to make the throw, and she needs to take another loop around, ever so slowly. TBH she's one of the ones bloodlust would help considerably, as it would allow her time and distance to position her shot. No BL means if she can't hit the survivor before they get close to the vault, she's going to have to immediately go for breaking the door and avoid a sunk cost strategy asap.
Oh, also "5-10 seconds at the start of the match to break them." shows you really don't consider the logistics of any of what you're talking about. If I could spend 5-10 seconds to magically teleport to, and break, every breakable wall on the map, I'd do it at the start of every single game. Its almost like you have to go to the areas where they might be, break them, and then travel between them repeating this process or eventually travelling to locate survivors. Its almost like all that time and non-existant map pressure will pop 2-3 gens without getting a single down.
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5-10 seconds of your time at the start of the match at most kicking a couple of walls it not enough time for survivors to "crank out the gens and genrush." Even then kicking one during a chase is purely down to you not kicking it before hand and at MOST it wastes as much time as kicking a pallet normally, which you should be more than used to unless you play without breaking any pallets for some reason.
I'm not strawmaning I'm trying to ask how much easier do you want the game to be seriously? It's already as easy as it's ever been for killer. I bet if they added breakable walls witht the first nerfs to infinites earlier in the year that there wouldn't be these complaints at all. If you truly think they are that bad then go back a year and try playing then, idk how you would have coped.
"Majority of killers can be looped to death at an unbroken wall?" That is just pure nonsense. Let's say that you don't break say the groaning store house wall and are forced to vault the window. Killers vault speed is 1.65 seconds, survivors is 0.5. Your loosing just over a second on them. That's not taking into account any antiloops which the killer might have.
Once again i'm going to say it because i don't think i've gotten the message across, just break the damn wall!
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I just want to reiterate the frame of this conversation: You think that a situation where the killer automatically loses unless they take that loss to try to prevent future losses at the same position is perfectly ok, in a game where the lose/lose scenario is on 1 who has to outplay 4. Throw any other bias or whataboutism out the window and re-evaluate your position.
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I'm honestly not bothering with them anymore. No matter how many times we explain how much time is wasted breaking the walls, they will always tell us to break the walls.
No point in arguing with a brick wall.
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If you're playing clown and a survivor is able to get an extra loop at a jungle gym or window, then that's on you for not using your bottles properly. Same with if you're running out, that's on you for wasting and using all ur bottles up and not allocating time to reload.
Yet again with doctor you miss a shock that's compeltely on you. If you manage to do it right, which is not hard at all, then bam you've got a free hit or down.
Pre-trap as hag or trapper, you shouldn't be trapping whilst you're chasing the point of these killers is that they are prep killers, meaning you need to spend time at the start setting up their powers.
Deathslinger doesn't just need to shoot you as ur running up to the window, he can litearlly do it whenever you're within his line of sight, any decent slinger will not let you use these windows.
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I mean, if you want to use the "just be better" excuse as a counter to any of those scenarios, why not apply it to survivors ability to utilize non-infinites?
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Just like in 2017 the answer to the excess of pallets was just "break the pallet". You can never win with survivor mains.
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Ignoring the whole no counterplay argument, playing spirit is not about guessing. Tha'ts what playing against her is about. Playing her is all about tracking, which isnt hard if you have had any practise or the survivor is injured. If you mess ur phase up that's on you.
Huntress just needs to wind up and wait for the survivor to either vault or run away. It's not that hard. If your missing hatchets then once again it's on you. And BL on huntress? If you're using ur hatchets then chances are you wouldn't even know what bloodlust is. If your bloodlusting as huntress then you're not using ur power correctly.
There's at most 2-3 walls which you "need to break" and these are always in teh same location, it's not like you need to travel around and go find and break them they are all in the one spot. So if 2-3 gens pop because your breaking walls, you spent 80 seconds doing nothing but breaking walls?
Alot of maps you don't even need to break the walls. Yamaoka estate (both maps), iron works, sheltered woods. It also seems as though you don't need to on ormand or a large amount of the autohaven maps either.
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what is worse we invest time not into "make god loop into a bad loop" but into "make god loop into slightly less god loop". Literally every single window with breakable walls on reworked maps is still very strong even without the wall. That's so dumb.
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Is there an excess in breakalbe ones? No. One or two at most. All breakable before even entering a chase.
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What are you talking about? Haddonfield still has god window in Myers house at bottom floor, Crotum Asylum still has god window in main building. Mother Dwelling still has god window in the main building. the last map they need rework is fracture cowshed which is farm map. Only then can they ever consider removing Bloodlust. The test is good but its too early to remove it. they got 4 more critical maps to rework.
These walls are like early game collapse for survivor, they waste 1 minute walking time based off where you spawned in the trial to break walls. Just gives free generator repair time at the start of the match.
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And what about the god loops out in wreckers Haven around the cars and junk with no breakable walls? Not the T walls and such, but literally the random ass God tier loops. I get what people are talking about the breakable walls; on both sides, but I think we can all agree that the removal of bloodlust on the weekend is not going to yield the data that the devs want. A.) People are not going to play as much and B.) People are going to play different killers to adapt; let's go gunslinger! People are not going to waste time playing what they enjoy to just to be kited around all day in a chase that just wont end for the devs to get better #s. For a game that has been our for 5 years now, I would have expected the devs to know better or do better analysis of perks, abilities and bloodlust. Oy vey 4head.
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Yeah, most maps with breakable walls that hurt the killer I go to break first thing. I think Dead Dawg is a perfect example but also the 2 story house in Badham.
I'm not a big fan as a lot of killers simply don't have the time to spare early game and this is another roadblock. On the other hand there's ones like the upstairs ironworks that are quite a big time sink to break so I just actively ignore it and drop chases. Like, Spirit or Nurse or Freddy aren't going to be hurting much from breaking them. But Micheal and Oni with their bad early game? Pig with her bad lategame thanks to Trap nerfs? Trapper and Hag who absolutely need to get their nest of traps up ASAP? Bad times.
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Ok let's have survivors build walls and we will make Infinites constantly. So how is that smart. Badham and the basement house will never have walls and a swf will easily control the match if they decide what walls are uo
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Everyone here is saying to break the wall. Yes, that's the counterplay. But walls are reasons to keep infinites in the game. Not everyone will know to break the wall. Most people will, for sure, but it isn't a great thing to say as a counter argument because a survivor gets an almost infinite loop for free. It's almost as unbalanced as swf.
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Hmmmm. it's almost like breakable walls serve a purpose as a 1 time loop. That becomes unsafe afterwards.
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Hmmmmm. it's almost as if you havn't read any of the numerous responses explaining how walls are badly implented.
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They were never walls to me, more like patched doors. When they announced breakable walls I had in mind Left for Dead when you're playing as an Infected, you could break walls within houses or buildings. These "breakable walls" are implemented for temporary infinite loops unless you break them, which feels more like a chore and gives the survivor free time to make more distance. People say it is like a dropped pallet, you're not wrong because it is just as annoying as one if we DON'T break it.
Definitely feel like breakable walls should be better implemented and need to be more creative and unique, as they are they're just a removable nuisance for killers. They should tweak and change them along the way but it isn't necessarily a priority right now. They have a long lost of things to fix first lol
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Like the fabled console optimization.
They said they'd be doing that 2 years ago... still waiting.
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This Xbox player will remember that.
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Don't forget auto haven with the open bus loop nor window corner killer shacks as those are both infinites without blood lust and one is a generic map tile.
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How in the fresh [BAD WORD] did you use italics?
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