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As a Killer main, I'm happy with nerfing mori's
People are now complaining that they are ''useless'' and pointless.
But I'd argue that they should be non-impactful, being able to mori someone only after one hook was extremely powerful and oppressive to the survivors.
Mori's being strong isn't healthy for the game, I'm down for them being useless. They just need to nerf keys to the same level and it'll be a much more healthier experience for both sides.
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I'm also happy to see them nerfed. So long as keys are also nerfed. Keys haven't been nerfed though so Mori's shouldn't either.
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Even playing as a killer I'd say that mori's are worst than keys, specially ebony mori, but it still makes much more sense to nerf keys as well. And taking the opportunity make offerings for hatch in this or that place not brown, but at least green or yellow. Moreover, they should also make the hand that denies maps more common for killer's bloodwebs, since it's 4 players against one multiple matches picking their favorite maps, also good for ballance.
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exactly, i would have liked if keys would get changed along with them but i understand that would likely require a bit more work then changing one variable, as long as it happens sooner or later
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As a fellow Killer main, I 100% agree. I feel like mori's should be purely for a more interesting death than the Entity stabbing you like some weird horror hentai.
I'm not even upset about them not nerfing keys at the same time. I'm really not bothered by keys too much. Survivors who escape with a key, at least to me, essentially say one or more of the following:
"I concede. We can't beat you, so we'll just use a key and escape"
"I want to be an ######### but don't have the skill to do so"
"I could escape out the exit gates, but I want extra BP" (these guys are fine. I respect them)
"I care more about the bold "Escaped" words on the screen than enjoying the game"
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Moris are now pointless because they were a way to have some success when as a killer you were not doing well. If you have already hooked all of the survivors twice you are doing fine and the Mori is not needed.
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Both are equally bad. Both allow you to skip objectives and still get a free win but keys are worse in my opinion because you can find them mid game and the killer can do nothing about it.
Also last second character switching as survivor needs to go. Killers are locked in so why aren't survivors?
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My issue with it is how it was done. Making it so everyone had to be hooked once fixes the tunneling problem and still lets them be impactful. Now unless EGC is happening and you think they have DS it is actively more detrimental to mori them rather than either hook or slug and be active during the 12-15 seconds a mori takes. Even if the ONLY benefit you get out of not mori-ing someone is a chase, you're still keeping one player off whatever they wanted to do during the time you'd've been in a pointless animation.
Note that I almost never use moris, but I also don't think making them pointless in most use cases was the way to go.
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Exactly! Mori's are now just an offering that give killers a little bit more power, but introduce the kill animation (which is fun af) which is one of the most iconic and fun aspects of the game.
Before, they were just oppressive and gave killers easy wins. Keys are such a lesser problem than people argue anyway, since you can actually counter them unlike 1 hook mori's.
Good change by the developers.
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Now they aren't experience ruining and don't give boosted killers a free ride. Good
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Also agree with the Mori nerf. I never ran moris because they felt like a dirty way to get out of playing well (especially the Ebony mori). They now still have a minor purpose in allowing you to counter some clutch DS or pallet plays, but they don't allow you to just completely skip a hook. Now I don't feel bad about running them because they're nowhere near as broken, and they're much more in-line with the power level of other Offerings.
Do keys need nerfed/reworked? Yes. They absolutely do. Moris also needed a nerf, and while it is a bit annoying they didn't both happen at the same time (since a lot of people used Moris to counter Keys), that doesn't change that a nerf was needed IMO.
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Moris now are mostly aesthetic and I'm perfectly fine with that. They could still be useful against sabo-squads or teams that like to bodyblock a lot though.
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I could care less I never really used em anyways.
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I usually killed on 2nd hook anyway if I used them regardless. Only time I ever you kill as fast as possible is if I was drunk or was against a group of 4 key claudettes sending me to Old Ormond or Haddonfield.
Won't effect me much and I'm happy for the change.
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Killer main and good with the mori nerf. Glad it’s not viewed as tit for tat by the devs.
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While we're at it let's make all survivor items only visual cool stuf you hold in hand but doesn't actually have any effect. It's equally dumb.
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Same,
it may suck when survivor "ouplay" you with a key,but it's sooo incredibly rare that i couldn't care less.
I see more people playing plague,billy,demo or hag as survivor than key escapes and that says a lot lol
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I agree about the mori nerf and I'm also a killer main. It's not fun for survivors and you get less bp as killer for the match.
They should have done both a mori and key nerf at the same time though.
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I personally don't care....cause I personally don't use them so my opinion is likely irrelevant. But for what they do they're expensive to run.
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I'm happy I can stop dodging moris now. Excellent change. Now nerf keys ASAP.
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I agree both need to go, but if was done in any order, mori's are much more oppressive. If you play both ways you should notice this. Having a key is not nearly as much pressure as a mori, specially when you need to find hatch (that's why I mentioned the offerings). If hatch place is known is just as bad as mori because they can 3 gen themselves making the easiest gens from the outside and simply walk to hatch and open for all of them. But, if it's not a known place, there is time to cause problems to their plans. Still a problem for ballance and too much dependant on RNG as well, but with Mori's and culture of tunneling (little less on camping, but still lots of proxy camping) even when it's not necessary, on hook you already know what is going to happen in a few seconds.
I usually only use mori when I have a daily on a particular killer to gain points and sometimes not even then, I first try using devour hope, but surely it's pretty easy to be destroyed before you reach 5 or you kill everyone because they stop unhooking and die for 1 downs. Either that or the totem is right in the middle of the map glowing like neon right besides the most important generators.
Keys, in some cases you still have more ways to counter.
But I do agree it is irregular for survivors to change builds midway, specially in last seconds considering killer locking, but I wouldn't go so far as to say you can't change whatsoever. At least changing from before the timing is impossible for you to do anything but dc on loading screen would be good enough, like 30s to change things and be locked to everything that point on.
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I play both sides and see why a change was needed from both sides. As a survivor it tips the scales way to hard against you, and often encourages tunneling which does ruin a players fun needlessly. And that was exactly the reason obsession perks were already changed long ago *cough*Dying Light*cough*.
As killer you're almost pushed for using them too. For one, you score way less bloodpoints than you would have because you are in way less chases. Also, that affects your emblems for pipping for the same reason. If you're getting a 4k and not pipping, you're still not winning.
The idea I had was to treat mori like Devour Hope:
10/11 hooks, Cypress Mori activates
8/9 hooks, Ivory Mori activates
6/7 hooks, Ebony Mori activates.
I guess I'm still okay with the actual changes though. Maybe award more points post game to avoid the point cap (like a seasonal offering) to still encourage their use. Because a big thing that goes away with the old Mori is the mind game. I can still bring a broken key as a survivor to mess with the killers head and probably their load out, but it won't be the same playing a hidden offering just to scare the survivors anymore.
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I already used moris on death hook anyway and only when I had a daily. I'm perfectly fine with the change. They way they worked was antiquated and from an age where survivors could literally never be downed if they had half a braincell. If anything, the nerf was long overdue.
The devs already said they would change keys as well. So, expect it to happen shortly probably. And I'm fine with that too, for obvious reasons. The sooner, the better.
These are nerfs that are necessary for the health of the game.
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Glad to see that some one else shares my opinion that keys and moris are the literal same thing.And killers are locked in because MMR, meaning that they shouldn't be locked anymore, since the devs removed MMR.
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Winning is subjective. I personally see it as a win if I had fun, not if a broken ranking system gave me a ######### reward for doing well.
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Except it's a ranked game so not ranking is mechanically not winning. Hell, I've depipped from a 4k (potatoes I NEVER should have been matched with) and trust me, losing rank does not feel like winning. And since I lay for those sweet sweet bloodpoints, it was also not a good match my any stretch.
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If thats the case you should rather learn how to do well instead of relying on the (former) most OP Offering in the game to carry you.
@Topic:
They are not even entirely pointless. You can still ignore stuff like DS (especially in Endgame) with a Mori. So having a Mori is still better than not having a Mori.
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the devs also said they'd look at DS again but said they would rather look at undying since it's been out 3 months now and they hear it's being paired with ruin. so "We're going to look into keys" sure it's something that will come in the long run, but i doubt it'll be looked at anytime soon. the fact that survivors and killers alike wanted changes to BOTH items should have spoken volumes that changing one would be very "CONTROVERSIAL" and really show a bias to one side or the other. This has really pushed things into the survivor side of the dev's support along with the fact they removed the information and functionality of Hoarder to lower the item quality of the perk, give 2 more chests but only one chest even gives you indication they are touching it. so lets put 5 minimum chests out there PLUS what ever else the survivors put out there and find a damn key easily and get the hell out.
I do agree that this is not a bad change to the mori, but without a corresponding nerf to keys when this happened it's telling killers you have to work even harder for any wins you're gonna get, but survivors can have even easier times getting things that can help them yet get limited help for the killer (perk hoarder now). So it's just honestly the apperance of the nerf along with several other nerfs that are put out there or about to be put out (freddy nerf) that seems to tell people they don't care as much about killers and anytime something helps them either it's nerfed really quick OR it takes forever to be fixed, a survivor needs fixing or it'll benefit the survivors it seems they get priority and front stage.
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As a killer main, I am happy about moris too. They are a crutch. And that crutch has been replaced by ruin+undying. Don't need moris anymore.
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Rank does not equal skill, and that being said, rank means absolutely nothing.
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It's not a big deal
The handful of times I bothered to burn a Mori offering instead of a BP one, I forget to use it half the time, or hooking was a better idea.
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Rank usually means, even if not by a lot, some time and dedication to the game, which can be noticed also by perks and items used. From the stats of the game red ranks survive more than the others (https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/61114/data-sheets-community-requests), which means you are objectively wrong in saying that rank means nothing.
It doesn't mean skill, but it's not the same facing a rainbow matchmaking or even solely purple ranks to your average red rank teams. Maybe you are facing too many potatoes as coincidence or you have so many hours into the game (or skill) you can't recognize the difference, but there is quite a lot of difference.
Even when I watch some streamers that play a dedicated killer for 5k+ hours I can pretty much tell most of the time, before the match ends if he is facing a red ranks team or not and rarely I miss, and that is not from my region that has much less players and different characteristics as well.
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Rank for survivors doesn't necessarily mean skill, as it is extremely easy to rank up for them. In fact, the primary issue with solo queue is the ranking system, as the main complaint is that your teammates shouldn't be in red ranks. This pretty much goes to show that either rank doesn't mean skill, or that solo queue is actually well designed. And solo queue isn't well designed at all. I'm explaining this pretty badly(but what do you expect from a person who explained looping to a rank 20 as "being good at the game), but what I guess I'm trying to say is that the ranks purpose is to show skill, and match you up with players at your own level, and since it can't do that correctly, rank currently means nothing.
Did I explain that well? I'm typically really bad at explaining things lol.
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You are not explaining badly. If one reads what you said they can understand mostly of what you are saying. And most players do understand the rank system doesn't equal skill and is less than perfect, but that is not the same as equaling that ranking system to nothing, which is what is said by the statement: "rank currently means nothing". That is a bland statement used to shut people from argumenting something without any foundation, because it is based on a vacuous statement.
It is not perfect, but it does mean something, otherwise the stats would not demonstrate that difference. It's a matter of statistics. Those stats I posted (https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/61114/data-sheets-community-requests) are possibly even before the emblem system, when it was even easier to rank up both as killer and as survivor, you just had to meet a certain number of points for survivor for the longest time and they still had far more survivability on red ranks than otherwise.
That's why I say it is wrong to propagate this mantra of some streamers that "rank means nothing". Ranks doesn't mean skill, but it means something. If one doesn't notice as I said before, they just got too much immersed in the game to look around.
Just as an example (the most important thing are the stats not cases) it's not even funny when as a killer I face lower ranks as I mentioned, they can do nothing. Sometimes they can't even do 2 gens before everyone is dead. That can happen in red ranks, but it is far more difficult to happen, and stats prove that this is true, it's not an opinion. Same thing when a green/purple killer faces red ranks, it's trolling time for most matches (unless it is a far experienced killer just raising back his rank). Some of them can't even get 2 hooks before 3 gens or more are done.
Rank does mean something, it just isn't perfect or means what people want it to mean: skill.
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I think Keys are worse than moris overall. However I agree moris should be nerfed.
I think the real issue is that the killer community kinda has a history of having experimental or rapid fire balance changes forced on them out of the blue, while survivor changes are telegraphed and drawn out with major killer sided issues consistently not being addressed (endgame STILL is an awful bloody mess that is designed to allow survivors to force killers to participate in their own loss running people out, just add a concession button already!), and this change really ties into it.
Its also problematic that the rationale for not immediately nerfing keys too was 'we don't think keys are that bad because they don't help the survivors win that much.' Which is true, Moris are 'worse' than keys in the sense they help the killer win a lot. But keys are 'worse' than moris because keys make it nearly impossible for the killer to win. Which sounds like the same thing, but its not.
A killer using a mori doesn't force a loss on the people not subject to it. It just changes the pace of the game dramatically, but a conventional 1-2-2 pip split (1 for the killer, 1 for 2 survivors, 0/-1 for two survivors) is very possible and the killer can still lose a mori game. A key game is basically pre-determined to be a frustrating killer loss involving lots of slugs and nonsense unless the killer can tunnel the key and no one finds it. Its just awful.
So the idea that moris are worse is really viewing it as a winrate problem, while the idea that keys are worse views it more as a gameplay loop problem. And I think the gameplay loop is the way bigger issue with the 'victory alteration' items. Killers already have their win condition shoved down the survivors pants in a manner that can make them have little control over the match (You know how many safety pips I got because a rank 1 survivor decided to kill themselves on the hook just because despite me being all the way across the map? Too many) in a manner that isn't true in the reverse (A survivor playing excellently can always force at least themselves to pip). Keys take that really huge problem and make it worse.
Those two things combine to make nerfing moris (which, again, SHOULD happen) before nerfing keys (which everyone knows is coming even if there was some ugly heel dragging from devs) a problem and a huge slap in the killer's face. Especially because this was done fast to prevent killers from burning moris, but survivors knowing a key change is in their future might start burning keys making the asymmetry even WORSE.
It really sucks too because the devs... just nakedly treat the two sides of the community very differently which creates an adversarial attitude that should not exist. They chose to create an 'us vs them' attitude where its a battle for changes to the game to favor one side, rather than it being a 'same team' situation where everyone just wants the game better. I think EVERYONE was united in wanting both Moris and Keys gone, but now that it was Moris first in a low key skeezy way, it became A Thing when it didn't have to be A Thing.
In an alternate reality where they didn't change moris until they changed keys, we all could have celebrated as a community together being pleasantly surprised that a huge QoL issue for both sides was addressed. Now it just kinda stinks.
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Yeah, you're right. Rank doesn't exactly mean nothing. Honestly though, rank to me means that the higher the rank you are,the less people stealth.
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I have to agree. I very rarely used a mori when playing killer as they were massively broken and seeing them changed is a huge relief. They were just really toxic alot of the time
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I am happy that mories are nerfed too.
BUT i am not happy with thing that happened only few secs ago. As always if i see premade team with key i get mori and used only on the key guy. Yet now that you can't mori players after first hook have things like this. Get 3 gen as fast as you can if someone gets moried other player dc and boom with new hatch oferings you can insta jump in shach trough hatch with 2 gens still to go. Ye mori is nerfed but keys still is strong and give abilites for players to use hatch tech (at least much less with penalties...)
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As someone who plays more killer than survivor I'm a bit bummed out about it but it hasn't killed the game.
I think its affected my survivor game more than my killer game as yet again its less scary to play survivor. A killer with a hidden offering was scary, now even with that its kind of like eh I've got two hook states to get away before there is any real threat. The watered down fear of the survivor experience is what really undermines that side of the game.
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It should be a bonus, a treat for everyone in the game. Cutting out a survivor's impact by 2/3 of a match is devastating for everyone.
I just wish the game wouldn't punish killers for using moris now. They should at least be equal in points, or guarantee capping out in that category after 2 kills.
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I dislike what I'm hearing on streams right now - basically, streamers are suggesting camping hooked survivors to ensure they go to second state so they can essentially get around the new restriction and still be able to mori after one hook.
The last thing we need is more face-camping - we REALLY need mechanics put into place that discourage this kind of behavior.
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You get more points hooking someone twice and then using the mori than hooking someone 3 times.
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Yeah but the end screen makes it seem like you dod a bad job.
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If you are playing for pips you wouldn't use a mori in the first place.
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I'm saying that offering something like that shouldn't punish you to begin with. Why are we punishing killers for offerings? It's stupid, it's reminiscent of old dev habits, coupled with extreme grinding, it's just a negative experience for everyone involved.
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