How are keys unbalanced?
There are so many threads that speak of keys being unbalanced, but I don’t get it. Survivors still have to complete generators to have it spawn early. 2 Survivors = 3 gens. 3 survivors = 4 gens.
Yet I see killers complaining all the time about it, I understand your frustration about losing points, hooks and pips. But surely is you see a survivor with a key, you have the option to alter your perk build such as Franklin’s to then ensure that they drop that item and risk losing it. I’ve easily played over 100 survivor games in the last few days, and I got a total of 1 key from chests.
It’s the exact same as killers saying “ don’t want to be slugged then use unbreakable/SG “
” use ds and unbreakable to counter tunnelling and slugging. “
Yet when survivors have an item that gives them another option to get out that has its requirements as well, that’s somehow unbalanced? (Yes gens don’t take long, but if you’re pressuring them and actually playing like a decent killer then it shouldn’t be difficult? )
No this is NOT a troll, I’m being 100% serious. I’m not looking for petty and pathetic responses, I’m trying to understand why everyone gets so salty about something that they can literally change using a perk, like everyone tells survivors to?
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They are *kinda* unbalanced, but imo the only thing that's unbalanced about them is the fact that they have no animation or time required to open the hatch so you can do it mid-chase. It's really cheap and annoying, but it's something that could be easily fixed (and it seems like they're going to fix it)
The actual requirements for the hatch to spawn and be used with a key I have no problems with. If survivors want to get any use out of a key they have to do gens, and they also have to be together and on the hatch to actually get out. And 9 times out of 10 the killer knows, even before the match starts, that a key is in play. Hell they can even influence where the key spawns with those new offerings.
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My game yesterday was a great example
In the lobby, no keys. At the one second mark, two survivors switch to keys and they have the offering that tells them the hatch is in the main building. We go to the preschool level.
People act like getting 3 gens popped off is impossible but it's not until the end that killers can realistically defend gens (when there are only a handful left). There's literally nothing I could do cause I know exactly where that hatch is but I can either stand there and defend it (letting the gens get done) or I can defend the gens (letting everyone walk out via Hatch at their leisure).
The only reason I was able to actually do well is it was clear this was a SWF so they were overly altrustic when I started slugging once the hatch spawned. I forced them to choose to leave a man behind or just leave via the hatch with 3 instead and they insisted on getting their downed person saved. But then of course somehow I'M the ######### for slugging when they pulled their little lobby stunt :D
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I played six survivor games today running Plunderer's and that new perk from Elodie, Appraisal. There were no extra chest offerings. I found four keys and a rainbow map. (I was running it to find flashlights so I could do the stupid blinding challenge without tipping the killer off. I found one flashlight in those six matches with all that chest-searching. One.)
Anyway, one key can get all four survivors out. As stated above, it's pretty easy for survivors to get three gens done. It's the fourth and fifth gens where the killer can apply more pressure. With a key, though, the survivors can bypass getting out of a three-gen. One death, and the other three skip out through the hatch, which absolutely screws the killer.
The devs themselves say the killer isn't really meant to stop the first three gens from getting done, the killer gets stronger when it's down to one or two gens, and yet there's an item in the game that lets survivors skip out at this very part. Makes perfect sense.
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Honestly it's not the balance parts about keys that annoys me. when you get to the clutch part of a match when it usually get's to be the most fun the game just ends with keys. How powerfull they are honestly really doesn't matter. they are funbreakers.
Worst part is that they break fun for both sides. If i didn't want to deal with mori's i would just play killer.
With keys either way the game suddenly ends at the most fun part and usually as a survivor it means you got left behind and almost certainly are going to die.
Ending the match prematurally just isn't fun. it doesn't matter how powerfull it really is
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If you get an unlucky spawn, you can lose 3 gens for your first chase even if you end it within 30 seconds.
One more gen after that, and one sacrifice, and the other three get to win no matter how badly they ######### up the rest of the game.
Keys are bullshit because they let survivors circumvent their already easy win condition.
If you get a 3 gen, barely holding on but still very much in it, a key means you lose. Why? No reason. What can you do? Nothing, really, just hope they're ######### eniugh to get stomped.
Imagine if in the League/Dota world finals, somebody pulled out something that changed their win condition to "destroy one inhib/rax". That's what we're talking about here.
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First off, franklins only counters those keys that are wielded by inexperienced survivors. The key will be stashed away until needed.
Second, keys pose the same problem as old Moris. Both require(d) to do the main objective just partially (old moris cut the last hook off, keys cut off gens/ opening gates) in order to win (Kill/escape).
I agree that they DO require work, but so did old moris ( most killers still had to find the survivor twice and beat them a grand total of 4 times in a chase) yet they were deemed too anti fun and strong. This holds true for keys too, but to a slighty lesser degree.
It´s also hard to argue that an item that ONE survivor brings can get several Survivors to escape, despite them having lost the game, is not unbalanced.
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These are just my opinions.
You admitted gens go by fast in a normal game
How is a killer supposed to pressure on two or three gens at once in the middle of every chase. If It takes me like 20 to 30 seconds to down someone in a very strong part of the map, and there's a gen with two people on it and another gen with one person on it (god forbid all three survivors are on their own gen) there is no real way I can successfully stop gen progression. Even while I have someone on a hook, in a chase, and while someone tries to save. That leaves one on a gen, and with how long it takes to get to the second and third stage of a hook, the second person is probably committing to the gen. The best case scenario is to find the third person on the right gen to create pressure on the third person. So, if the survivors play correctly (Which doesn't seem very hard to do, especially in a well coordinated team on a fair map with meta perks) with aggro taken in a responsible manner, and taking into account slowdown perks from the killer it seems impossible to truly stop and put pressure on multiple survivors without the survivors making mistakes, when my gameplay should really be impacted on my skill to down survivors in a timely manner while they DON'T make mistakes.
And then add keys which completely subverts the objective. And the more pressure, or kills, a killer puts into the game, YOU get rewarded for that. Because the hatch comes from how many survivors are alive, PLUS the work survivors put into the game.
Then think about how moris got nerfed. Which make it so survivors are on death hook already, and depending on the mori and hook placement, it's faster to just hook someone to kill them. (IMO)
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A 4 man swf can escape through hatch with the use of one key.
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Keys (and the hatch in general) are terrible design just like Moriis were (and still are to an extent). They change the win condition of the game.
You could be the killer, playing a hard-fought match and finally have 2 sac 2 alive, with one gen remaining. You've done a pretty good job while the survivors had all their resources - now the scales are tipped and your favor and you're confident you can win. No, wait, the match just ends because the survivors opened the hatch with a key. Have fun black pipping.
You enter the match with the expectation that you have at least until 5 gens pop to make things work. Just like a survivor being denied a whole hook state by the old morii, the your win condition is being made much, much harder by the existence of the key. It's why people still have a problem, to a lesser extent, with toolboxes.
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Very simple way to bypass franklins. Drop the key on the ground. Its is now impossible to make that key disappear. Put it in a position the killer wont spot and suddenly you have negated franklins.
Even then as killer spending a slot to overcome the key disadvantage is akin to running lightborn sure its nice when it works but you spent a perk slot to counter survivour items. A killer perk suite is already a nightmare to run your desired builds with 4 slots. Now your playing with 3 slots. Thats huge.
Next point franklins doesent work again because once you drop the item the killer needs to defend it to guarrantee its removal. Thats 90 seconds of gen time. I had a clown opponet where he franklins my toolbox and he just hung around the area. I directed my team to do gens far from the toolboxes position and we nailed out 3 gens just to stop my toolbox from being recovered after which the killer dced because ofc he did like you thought franklins countered my toolbox when really the perk trapped him into losing 3 gens.
I don't want keys nerfed i want hatch spawn to be nerfed so it spawns at all gens done or last survivour standing no other circumstances. This idea isnt a strict nerf for survivour as killers will now have no way of knowing the hatch location until the end game collapse start unless there are no gens left. A nerf to the key mechanic and a buff to the last survivour standing.
There are so many ways hatch messes with dbd. From survivours choseing to leave there team behind. Losing an intense game to a random hatch effectively ignoring the last 2 gens or 1 gen left. Or just exaspearating the swf advanatage further.
An animation change or unlocking action wont make a difference if anything it will make it worse as now the hatch is encouraging survivours to leave there allies behind.
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An item that makes u win just because a certain number of gen/kill has been done can't be balanced.
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BuT yOu NeEd To Do GenErAtOrS So ItS BaLaNcEd
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Buuuut...mori was nerfed so something on survivor side has to be nerfed too!
I don't remember the last time I saw a key being successfully used. Killers have a zillion tactics and perks to deal with keys but refuse to use them because they can't stop using Ruin and Undying and their other meta perks.
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fine, one survivor has a key, and brings the offering to place the hatch at the killer shack. now in the course of the game three gens get done (easy to do) the remaining 4 are in a tight area so it's easy for the killer to patrol the gens. and in the process one person is dead already and a second is in struggle. the key holder and the other will go to the shack and wait out the struggle and then blamo two get out without much work at all.
this is WHY the key and hatch mechanics are very unbalanced as was original and then the first nerf of moris which I will agree there was something needing to be done. I think that the mori change in and of itself was a good change but the fact that it was done and released because they could do so made the devs appear even more survivor sided than they were before. this is why I suggest they should have waited for that simple change to mori and state when the changes came out they waited to make it an even exchange because both killers and survivors agree that something needed to be done to BOTH of these items and thus they were following the wishes of the community at large.
thus with mori's taking a long time and if the killer goes to mori the second person, the other survivors finish that third gen they now have more time to get to the shack where they KNOW the hatch will spawn (offering used) and two gets out with a minimal of effort and the killer gets cucked on points as well as emblem progress because the game is immediately over. Do you now see why both are talked about in the same breath? How both mori's and keys are linked even though they are not totally equivalent? and thus keys are fairly unfair and mostly broken?
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I cant alter mine perks when the broken item Spawns in a chest so....
Just remove Keys from chest and then i am fine
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I definitely agree that it should take a few seconds in order to open it as it would then be more balance instead of a cheap way.
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But keys aren’t unbalanced though? If it’s a swf team then they have to do all gens for the hatch to spawn anyway? Therefore there’s plenty of time to outplay them, hook one, slug one etc. Nothing wrong with that..
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they actively punish the killer for doing well while simulaneously rewarding the survivors for doing poorly.
they are just unhealthy for this game.
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Now it all makes sense, you stole all the keys and that’s why I never find one.
But in all seriousness 3 gens means 2 survivors can escape. And 9/10 the killer has the chance of finding the hatch whilst patrolling generators? They still have to do gens to get to that point. If people are saying 3 gens are easy then make gem speeds longer by 15 seconds, or killers need to run Franklin’s.
Theres such a double standard for this game. If a survivor gets tunnelled or slugged then they have to use ds or ub, so if killers are so butthurt about keys, why can’t they just bring Franklin’s?
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I can understand that frustration, but would you say that they should make pink keys more rare, then change the purple keys to being 20 seconds but they can no longer open hatch and instead can be used as aura reading ones etc? Because removing keys completely wouldn’t be fair unless mori’s were removed as well really.
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The fact that keys can be found in chests midgame negates your argument. Secondly, it's unfair that only one side now has an item that can shorten the match in their favor. Give players a 'win', undeservedly. You could hide in a locker for most of the match and urban evade all of the map undetected and escape with key. You could be in a 3 gen situation with two other survivors and completely avoid finishing the match and everyone escape in hatch.
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But the removal of keys as a whole which is what a lot of people want seems so drastic to me? I agree they should be nerfed.
- adding a timer, so 10 seconds to completely open the hatch.
- no timer but the person with the key can escape but it shuts straight after.
- change the mechanics of purple keys to be used for add on purposes only and only pink keys can be used to open hatch. ( this means making them rarer in the bloodweb also. )
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they aren’t completely unbalanced though? Sure they need a little change, such as said above, go take a peak instead of repeating the same thing.
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I don't want them removed.
What i would do is make them only usable in end game crisis.
They can be used as a backup when the killer closes the hatch and the 4 man escape achievment is still possible.
I still want them to have a use. Just not end the game prematurally
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Moris are technically removed, so with your argumentation it is ok to remove keys, too. Both were op bc they could shorten the game. Moris cannot do that anymore, keys should get the same treatment.
So no hatch escape with a key before all gens are powered.
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But getting rid of keys would mean getting rid of Moris for one.
- I personally think that you shouldn’t be able to get keys mid game from chests.
- There should be a timer for opening hatch, up to 10 seconds
- Only pink keys can open hatch, Purple ones be used for auras/add ons only.
- Or make all blood web keys like 80% rarer.
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I just want to be able to use keys for aura reading more idc about escaping through hatch.
I like the idea of greatly increasing Broken and Dull Key's Aura Read duration and making it so that only Skeleton Key can open the hatch and then whatever Behavior's plan is to nerf hatch.
I just want aura read keys without being called every name in the book lol.
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Okay read my other comments about the keys and ways they can be changed. It’s in this same thread, let me know :)
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Then change keys, but look at my comment on the same thread. The one with 1-4 different ideas.
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I don’t need petty, unhelpful responses, if you’re doing that in my threads just leave, thanks. :)
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You could read my answer to your posts, too.
Like i said your argument with moris would mean that you dont allow key escapes before the gens are powered. Moris cannot shorten the game anymore, same treatment for keys.
And pink keys are easier to get then purple keys.
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Agree but disagree, keys need a small nerf but they are nowhere near broken like some people claim
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Any game mechanic that lets you circumvent the normal win condition to win early is unbalanced. Period.
A Killer has to kill all four Survivors to win. There is no magic door he can click early to win.
That is what a hatch is. It's a magic door.
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Keys are not broken, they’re nowhere near broken.
they need a small nerf, for moris you now have to get another hook.
look at my other comment with possible ideas.
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That’s a pretty good idea. I think that they need to be rarer in the bloodweb too.
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But in order for the hatch to spawn, the survivors have to do the generators which is actually their main objective anyway? It’s a two way street. Look at my other comment about possible changes :)
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They still had one gen left. Had I not played like I did, three of them would have been able to waltz right on out as soon as they wanted to. Instead, my hand gets forced and I have to slug one of them with the hopes that the other three are going to be altruistic (which in this case they were).
EDIT: Actually, I must have taken one of them out before this because if there is one gen left, the hatch wouldn't have appeared. Adjusting my post accordingly (so changing the fours to three). I just recall slugging once they got to One Gen but I must have killed one of them in the process.
Had they not been altruistic or had I not been able to find one of them to down before they all got to the hatch, I'd have had three people skip their way right out of the trail without having to finish their objective or worry about me stopping them. I got lucky I found one of them away from the hatch area and I got lucky that the two people didn't just cut their loss and leave like they probably should have...
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Read my other comment where I’ve included possible changes. You can’t be mad at a game mechanic and just be like “ broken, must be removed. “
I want solid suggestions of what people can do with the hatch or key mechanic to make it more balanced. Read my other comment to see possible ideas :)
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Yes but no.
youre saying about ending the game prematurely, yet in most of my games I’m with 3 man or a duo team, and we still have to do gens and stuff to get hatch to spawn.
I barely ever find keys in chests, but I think that could possibly be removed. But saying they can only be used when hatch is shut or when all gens are done seems a tad stupid. Do you have any other ideas??
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If that’s gonna be the case then moris and keys might as well be completely removed.
So yes, in theory.
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I think it’s a great idea that can be expanded upon in the future if needed. And aura reading keys are literally limited time object which is so helpful.
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I saw. Any suggestion that continues to allow the key to be used on the hatch I will disagree with. Survivors shouldn't have a 'get out of jail free' item in the game. Mori's had their utility gutted, it's only fair survivors get the same.
If they made chests difficult to open and key's were used to quickly open them I'd agree with that. But hatch as a mechanic is already a freebie for survivors, they shouldn't be given anything more that contributes to that.
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Okay, I'm not trying to sound harsh, I understand the desire to compare aspects of the game, but.... don't change the topic. This is about keys. Nothing was ever said about tunneling or slugging. There are enough us vs them arguments when it comes to killers and survivor all over these forums. We're talking about keys.
I read farther down the thread and see you talking about removing keys. What? You never mentioned removing keys in your original post. You asked why are keys unbalanced, people are responding. I don't think keys should be removed; they just need to be reworked. Moris just got changed, keys should also get some attention so that they don't end the entire match prematurely just when a killer actually becomes dangerous.
It is quite confusing for you to ask about why keys are unbalanced and then assume everyone responding wants them removed completely from the game. Sure, some people want keys removed entirely, there are always a small amount of people wanting anything. But most people who find keys unbalanced just want them reworked.
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The unbalanced part of a key is that when the survivors F up their own game like 3 gen themselves, and the killer is pressuring them very well.
All it takes is 1 survivor to die so the other 3 can escape without any effert whatsoever, all it takes is 1 press of the button and they're gone.
They messed up so badly that they shouldn't escape in the first place, yet they get just another free escape.
Yes you can say "oh just use franklins when you see a key" 🤔
How logic it sounds, you have no idea how flawed that is.
How many survivors show their key in the lobby?
Answer: just a hand full of survivors will do that.
Every other survivor will switch last sec to a survivor with a key.
Sure now you can say "just equip franklins when a survivor doesn't press ready"
Yet there's another flaw there.
Most of the time they are just switching outfits, switching perks or are just afk.
So you just switched out a perk you wanted to counter a item that isn't used anyway.
Keys, mori and hatch are just stupid pitty/coward mechanic.
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you totally missed that i said MOSTLY broken. I didn't say remove them, nor did I say nerf them into the ground and then get rid of them. I said that they were unfair and mostly broken, what this means is that though you have to get some gens to get the hatch to spawn, doesn't matter that you've done nothing but once it's there you can leave. Now with the offerings that bring the hatch to the main building OR the killer shack if there is that kind of structure in the game it's no longer a WHERE is the hatch, you don't even need a damn map for that! so YES keys are MOSTLY broken and they do need changes, but small changes will not be good at all. making it so that you worked on one or two of the gens that were done for you to use it or more things like that. an animation does not give the killer the time to get to the hatch either
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And I’m saying that sucks, but what changed do you propose to the key/hatch to make it balanced?
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So, all 5 gens have to be powered for hatch to spawn at all? Seems a little one sided. And would thus make achievements/ challenges to do with hatch much harder, but hmm would add a challenging side I suppose..
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I don't have any ideas. I was just answering your question "How are keys unbalanced". What I said in my first post is why I think keys have the rep they have. If there is a key in the match, there are a few ways you can help mitigate their damage but there is nothing you can actually do to stop them if the survivors using them are even remotely smart about it.
To me, introducing the keys period was the mistake but what's done is done so all I can do is deal with it the best I can.
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But it's fair and balanced for a killer to find 3 gens and sit on them like a hen on her nest?
Killers are not supposed to win every game.
Keys are fine.
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Keys have a lot of utility. You can see the killer and other survivors. The hatch escape is just a bonus, a really strong bonus. Without a hatch keys wouldnt be useless. They would be more in line with other items, maybe they would need a small buff.
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