DS + unbreakable is not equal to ruin + undying
Ruin and undying only works well if the killer does a good job scaring survivors off of generators. It also doesn't last nearly as long as people like to believe, once it is gone it is gone for good.
DS + unbreakable on the other hand creates a lose-lose situation for the killer. It is ridiculous. Some people might argue that DS + unbreakable is also one use just like ruin + undying. While this is true, the difference is that DS + unbreakable gets its value out of being used up. Unbreakable also has the permanent passive effect of allowing survivors to recover from the dying state 35% faster at max tier.
DS just on its own is extremely powerful as the killer has to assume everyone has it or suffer the consequences (assuming the killer doesn't have perks that create an obsession).
At least with Ruin + undying, you can get rid of both of them with relative ease. DS + unbreakable can be stacked on all four different survivors and benefits the survivors no matter what the killer does.
The best way to get rid of ruin + undying is to have two survivors on two different totems at once btw.
Note: I will admit that it does a bit too much. Maybe give the tracking effect to Hex: TOTH so it is useful again.
Comments
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they are equally boring to face.
and you mentioned it yourself, the only real counterplay this combo has is to just play SWF and coordinate on totems.
which means this build is an absolute solo q destroyer, which in return makes it unhealthy for the game.
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Maybe. It isn't impossible to get rid of the combo, but it is still difficult to manage in solo queue. I feel like it does just a lil bit too much. I would take off the tracking it has so that H:TOTH is useful again.
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yes, that is also the change i would suggest for Undying.
i never really understood why they added that to begin with tbh, Undying is supposed to protect your Hexes after their destruction, but right now it just protects your Hexes, your Dull Totems and gives you free map info and tracking on Survivors...
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cool, and i have lost countless of games because i spawned in, decided to touch a Dull Totem and suddenly had a Blight (or any other high map pressure / stealth killer) jump in my face.
eigther tell the survivor their aura is being revealed by Undying (Hex notification as soon as you go into a 2m range to any totem) or remove the aura reading all together (or at LEAST limit it to Hexes only - seriously, why even is it on Dull Totems?)
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Ew distortion
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distortion is limited to 3 uses which you cant even control when you're about to lose them.
and all of a suddes you stand there, cleansed one Dull totem and already lost like two charges because you went near a totem and BBQ took effect cause someone else, who wasnt running the perk, got hooked for touching the totem.
and then you have a dead perk at 5 gens and Ruin Undying is still up.
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off the record activates AFTER i have already been hooked though?
which means the killer already got the Undying benefits of having an immediate target when the game stats and is currently in the middle of his snowball game, which is just another loss.
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I was joking, I would rather just not run that perk.
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That won't work, how will survivors fit it into their 4 meta slot build?
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I would argue that both are comparable as both essentially are one use perks. Once both DS and unbreakable is used early in the match they cannot be used again meaning the best strategy is to have to survivors use the DS and Unbreakable as soon as possible then from there it should be easier. Essentially DS is not a good anti tunnel perk. Ruin and Undying are one use perks in a way. Once Undying is gone its gone and can't be gained again, the same thing with ruin once its gone (given that Undying is also gone) it gone for good. Both perks are strong combinations, both can be used once and once both are gone can massively shift the balance of power to the opposing side, these perks are comparable.
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I'd honestly just get rid of the aura reading on dull totems.
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The thing is that Unb + DS can be stacked four times and while it is unlikely that it will happen, people will often run DS without it. Usually, 3 DS users per game is what you should expect. There are also few times where you can just "get rid of it early on". The survivors still benefit from losing it. That is only if one person runs it and considering how most survivors do run it (it is not their fault tho, most perks are trash for them, same for killer) you are still going to have to suffer from its use. A killer jsut doesn't have the time to make the survivors use these perks most of the time, if they do then they were already doing great.
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I think you misunderstand where people are coming from with the comparison.
DS-Unbreakable puts the killer in a lose-lose situation. Ruin-Undying puts the survivors in a lose-lose situation.
Find a lit totem? Was it the right one? Should you do every dull totem? Is there even Undying or was that something like Devour?
Try to do every totem? That's time you're not on gens while the killer is chasing/downing people AND can see you when you're close to a totem, so if it's a killer like Blight, they can be on you in seconds.
There's no winning! Doing totems means there's little to no gen progress which means you're facing an uphill battle afterward (unless the killer is really boosted or something). Not doing totems means you're powering through Ruin the entire time. Combine that with the rng of the totem spawns, and it easily makes games feel like you're battle perks and luck instead of the killer, exactly like it can feel when versing DS-Unbreakable.
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I see what you mean but another reason I would say they are comparable is because both create a losing situation. A killer with ruin and Undying can create a losing situation, either do the totem and have your position found or don't do the totem and have ruin effecting generators greatly if the killer is good at pressuring gens. Ergo a lose lose situation. Also ruin and Undying can be really oppressive on certain maps. Maps where totem spawns are excellent can make this combo too strong and the extra aura reading could be very detrimental to survivors, with this i feel its still comparable to DS and Unbreakable.
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There is winning, even a decent solo queue team can find all the totems they need. It is difficult, but once it is out of the way they can start playing normally. The killer cannot be everywhere at once and if a survivor is being chased, this means a generator can still be done while at least one person is finding the totems. This kind of coordination is not as rare in solo queue as you might think either. Remember, the second that survivors realize they are dealing with ruin + undying they will immediately try to find the totems required.
I am also not sure how it is a lose-lose situation with the combo described. If you are doing a generator, you are knowingly doing something that has a chance to be completely reset when you could instead work towards getting rid of it. As for unbreakable, DS, or both, you don't know for sure if the survivor has either. Since most people run DS, you practically have to assume they are running it so you slug them, if you pick them up you are risking quite a bit. Cleansing a totem that isn't the right one is not exactly a loss, it is just you gaining some progress towards fully getting rid of ruin. Also, remember that ruin + undying can only last so long while unbreakable + DS can be stacked on four different survivors. DS + unbreakable simply has way more potential than ruin + undying. I can see why it is luck and rng based though, for both sides which is something that needs to be addressed. But then again...BHVR isn't exactly the type of company to address core issues with their game.
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If your using the argument that ruin undying only works if the killer is applying pressure, ds unbreakable only works if the killer is tunneling and staying near hooks.
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"You can get rid of both of them with relative ease."
... not how Ruin/Undying works. And judging by your next statement about Ruin/Undying you seem to assume that everyone is a co-ordinated SWF.
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THOH hasn't ever NOT been useful. It slows cleansing speed and gives away a survivors position with a noise indicator. It's actually a great hex to add to a hex heavy build. I run it on Hag/Wraith/Doc/Freddy/Twins/Clown with Retribution, Haunted Ground, and Ruin. It works wonders.
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If you take of the tracking then why shouldn’t killers use ruin pop combo, pop will last at least. Lately I was thinking a lot if it worth to run this combo at all. Most of my games find undying first and i typically have to play the game with two perks
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DS unbreakable is only an issue if you specifically go after the same guy or attempt to slug for pressure. Guess you just need to adapt?
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It's not that ruin and undying itself is too strong it's when top tier killers (like nurse, spirit etc ) are the ones using it , as for the comparison I'm not so sure about it there are good arguments that could be made for both sides that anyone who plays both sides would have to agree on but I think DS unbreakable is a bit stronger because you can 4 stack
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so are you just going to ignore the issue of a entire team running it or are you just not aware that SWF can and will run a quad set of DS Unbreakable
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Disagree as a survivor can throw themselves at the killer depending on the situation and force them to slug/grab them thus activating DS or making UB possible.
I also would support this change even though I don't have an issue with totems with detectives hunch, but thats just me and Undying would still be protecting Ruin so I see no issue.
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If survivor is throwing himself into you, and giving you free down, then take DS and tunnel his ass off the game whats the problem? if you got initial down for free that means chase started as if you didnt got free down and also hes injured without DS.
I dont tunnel on purpose in any case, but if someone is so obvious with their DS/unbreakable I tunneling them out of the game he wants to use antitunnel perk be my guest you will be tunneled
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The thing is with ruin + undying is that it has a lot of RNG, or randomness to it. Will the survivors use a map to find your totems? Perks? Will they have the entire team look for it if in a SWF?
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But why would I not do that? Specifically not going after someone who was just unhooked and was either in a bad spot or saved close to me is pretty counter-productive. The fact that they can get away for free is pretty BS. Both slugging and tunneling are actually effective strategies. When using it in this context, those perks seem kind of like a crutch for the fact that the survivor doesn't need to rely on skill to get out of the situation they are in and punishes the killer instead of the survivor for being in a bad spot.
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It is useful, but what else would we do with the tracking undying gives? With a killer who is attentive, the noise notification is the same as the aura reading. In fact, the aura reading is better since it can also happen randomly throughout the match. Undying is really just this perk but better since it also protects your totems even better and that has a decent chance to help you find survivors in-game. Using H:TOTH is useful, but not as good as undying since it literally makes your cleansed totems respawn. The only thing that H:TOTH has that undying doesn't is the slowdown the more hexes there are. This can even be paired with undying and thanatophobia which can make it near impossible to cleanse totems.
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The statement "The best way to get rid of ruin + undying is to have two survivors on two different totems at once btw." was just a quick tip for anyone who does play in a SWF group. As a survivor, you have much more time than a killer and there are four of you. Even when one person runs it, it is really hard if not impossible if they know what they are doing to get it out of the way. Even when you do get rid of it, most of the time it will still be favorable to the survivors since it gets its benefit from being used up. DS + unbreakable has no RNG aspect to it while ruin + undying does. Ruin + undying will usually last 2 - 3 totems on average. Sometimes survivors will literally find both totems and get rid of them very easily because of how BS totem spawns can be.
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Me and my swf all equip those perks specifically as a :) to undying ruin killers. If it is an undying ruin killer, we gen rush and forego saving to give them quick games. If it isn't, we play normally. So to answer your question, yes I am, and I love using it to see killer reactions.
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Just eat ds noob ;)
/s
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Do you mean you run the small pp build all the time? It seems you are using ruin + undying users as an excuse for it. But hey, I can't tell you how to play. It just seems a bit weird how you say we only run DS + unbreakable against killers who use ruin + undying when you don't even know if they are using it.
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That's kind of the whole point though, isn't it? If you're going to give something that's meant to protect totems, then it kind of has to be strong. Consensus amongst most killer mains has been that, despite their obvious power, most hex perks being broken right away has been a problem since their inception.
A huge part of the issue is that while a lot of hex perks compare with a lot of say exhaustion perks, The biggest difference is that most exhaustion perks can be used over and over; hex perks can't. Until now, there's been no way to renew them. That means that there's been a boring strategy in the purple and red ranks that essentially says: Rush the gens, send two people to doors, send two people to find lit totems. It was a simple rinse and repeat the entire match.
With gen speeds being as bad as they been for as long as they have been, Undying has finally provided a balance to the issue by forcing an unspoken second objective. It also allows most of the experts to actually be usable. Just be glad it doesn't work with all hexes, or life would be much worse.
can you imagine undying having synergy with either retribution or haunted ground? It'd be merciless. I played both sides though admittedly, I am a priority killer main. But I played a survivor match the other night with a friend against a Freddy Who was running third seal, undying, Make your choice, and pop, paired with his jump rope add-on and fake pallets. It was a freaking nightmare.
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Ds/unbreakable also has the risk that you'll never get to use it. I stopped running ds because I legitimately get use out of it like 1 out of 100 games. Killers don't pick up ds if they're good and you don't need ds if killers are bad. Ruin undying is insanely strong and feels awful as survivor. Either you spend like 3 gens worth of time trying to break totems or risk having your gen time completely reset (gens are the most boring thing in game). I've once gotten my gen reset from 90+ percent 3-4 times in a match while my team dies. With 4 gens left.
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I don't need to know. Most killers I know use it, if not pop corrupt, but the perks still give value regardless, especially if at end game they have NOED. It's funny how running these perks is small pp but I guess undying ruin tinkerer is huge pp, right?
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Thrill gives noti on Hex totems.
My opinion, Undying gives aura only on dull totems.
This would give a choice between Thrill & Undying.
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Can you name any survivor perk that has only a use in conjunction with another perk? Because thats what you want to create, a perk that does nothing on itself, and only works in conjunction with another perk, while both perks can be countered.
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The real difference is..ruin/undying has a ton of counterplay and risk..ds unbreakable does not
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Hardly Equal..one requires effort and has massive risk/counterplay..the other lacks both
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Its a hex...I think you dont understand what that implies
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Yeah, ruin + undying can feel pretty oppressive and there's not much we can do about it. The thing is that it is very RNG reliant to be really good. It is either really good or okay for the killer and they have to pressure survivors correctly to get full usage out of it. Technically, you don't even have to run DS since if there's an obsession, the killer will slug instead of committing to a full-on tunnel. You don't even have to use DS if the killer slugs you, and your team can just pick you up if this is the case.
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As a survivor, the killers I go up against are constantly getting their Undying and Ruin broken, sometimes the latest it last is maybe mid-game, MAYBE.
DS/Unbreakable has no real counter, you either eat the DS and lose all your momentum or leave them on the floor and let them get up while you are forced to chase another survivor. This makes slugging a common tactic for killers, then survivors complain about that too.
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nono, thats not what "i want to create", thats the general idea behind Undying already.
Undying is ment to keep your other Hexes alive. that is its effect on the Trial, thats why its called "Undying" and not "Revelation" or sthg similar.
and if you're looking for similar perks, how about Thrill Of The Hunt? that too is quite literally useless without other Hexes (and funnily enough its main function is supposed to do what Undying curently does as a nice sidebonus - one is ment to keep other Hexes from being destroyed, the other is ment to reanimate them should they be destroyed. yet Undying just does both of that, completely outshining TOTH in the process.)
but since you specifically asked for similar perks on the survivor side, even though they do not have a mechanic where the killer can just kick an object on the map to remove some of their perks immediately, i would point over to Blood Pact. This one requires you or others to equip a perk that creates an obsession for it to be usefull / it requires the killer or someone else to have a perk that switches the obsession around (Nemesis, Furtive Chase or Decisive Strike for example) should you be the one that is the Obsession / should the obsession have died.
the only reason why i believe the aura reading aspect of Undying ever even made it into the game in the first place is, because the Devs needed something that would make the different perk tiers unique.
i dont think they really thought about how huge that aura reading actually is.
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in terms of how boring they are to play against, yes they are very equal. at least in solo q (which is what im mostly playing).
its a hex that pretty much negates its own downsides.
it makes other hexes completely ignore the risk of being destroyed, it protects itself with the aura reveal (allowing the killer to interrupt cleansing) AND it covers up its other potential downside of just doing Dull Totems in order to prevent other Hexes from respawning.
in other words, eigther remove the aura reading all together or at least remove it from Dull Totems (it makes no sense its on them in the first place - and its the root of many of the original problems ive had with it, e.g. Survivors being revealed without having any chance to know they are, as they havent even been made aware of any Hexes presence) in order to create some actual counterplay to this perk that isnt either queueing up as SWF to coordinate your totem assaults or hoping to get lucky with RNG and spawning on top of the Undying totem, cleansing it before the killer can even make it over to you.
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I totally agree with you.
I'm a killer main and ds ub doesn't bother me too much. I already try not to tunnel.
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This game is going to be organized around swf power..it has to be..people are finally fed up with bad changes being made because their solo q survivors have multiple handicaps thanks to matchmaking being abysmal..its a hex..its supposed to be strong because its the biggest weakness a perk can have..also saying it negates its own weakness is a straight up falsehood and you know it..
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Implying it only affects tunnelers...
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Ruin + Undying has a counter to it. AND you have to get survivors off of gens to make it work.
DS + Unbreakable require no skill and has zero counterplay.
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Can you explain this to me. I don't agree that DS and Unbreakable doesn't have any counters. Ignoring the obvious hook multiple survivor still get stunned the best way is to counter it is to get it out the way as soon as possible, the biggest flaw out of these perks that people seem to not notice is that both are 1 use perks. Meaning once DS and Unbreakable are used they can't be used again, why don't killers just make survivor use them early on, then from there you can tunnel and slug all you want?
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