Second Chance perks for killers?
How come there are several "second chance perks" for survivors and none of such for killers?
For survivors we have:
- Dead Hard: whenever you screw up, just press E to instantly "unscrew" yourself and try again
- Unbreakable and DS: get one extra life for the trial: use it wisely
- Adrenaline: one extra life for completing all the gens
- Borrowed time: one extra life for baiting the killer or unhooking in his face
- They now even have a perk for restoring dropped pallets: even this kind of mistake can be fixed with a perk.
What about Killers? There are no perks to break already completed generators: once you lose a gen - you lose it for good. There are no perks to down a survivor if he escapes: once you lose a chase - you lose it for good. There are no perks to close opened gates: once you lose a gate - you lose it for good. There are no perks to restore cleansed totems: once you lose a totem - you lose it for good. There are no perks to actually fix or undo a mistake you made: all killer's mistakes stay there until the end of the game.
What do you think about adding some "second chance perks" for killers too, to make it fair?
Comments
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I mean, we've got NOED and Blood Warden I guess
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If you want to go that route:
NOED: You lose all gens? Free insta-downs
Bloodwarden: Gates are open and you hook someone? No one can leave and they're probably #########
Enduring: You get stunned? Don't worry, it hardly matters
Spirit Fury: You get stunned? Goodbye pallet
Nemesis: You get stunned? They're your obsession now, you see their aura, and they can't hear your terror radius
Pop Goes the Weasel: Gen going too fast? Just ######### remove a quarter of it
Undying: Totem gets cleansed early? No it didn't, it's already back
Killers do have second chance perks.
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NOED: You lose all gens? Free insta-downs
Bloodwarden: Gates are open and you hook someone? No one can leave and they're probably [BAD WORD]
Yeah, I guess that's why NOED + Bloodwarden is meta now, killers use it as often as survivors use DS+unbreakable. NOED does not even guarantee you a kill: anyone hooked during endgame can be unhooked and gets a free escape if he has DS. Meanwhile, DS indeed guarantees you 60 seconds of god-mode. Moreover, NOED can easily be countered by survivors. Now tell me how to counter DS? Saying "just don't tunnel, lol" is almost the same as saying "just don't finish all the gens, lol" in this context.
Enduring: You get stunned? Don't worry, it hardly matters
Spirit Fury: You get stunned? Goodbye pallet
Nemesis: You get stunned? They're your obsession now, you see their aura, and they can't hear your terror radius
Getting stunned by a pallet is not a "mistake". You either get stunned or respect it: one way or another you waste some time. Enduring and spirit fury just give you the ability to finish loops earlier by never respecting and always eating the pallets.
Pop Goes the Weasel: Gen going too fast? Just [BAD WORD] remove a quarter of it
Yeah, but if you lose a gen - you lose it for good. PGTW does just that: makes the gens slower, just like a whole category of other gen perks. They make the objective slower to complete, but there is no way to truly undo a completed objective.
Undying: Totem gets cleansed early? No it didn't, it's already back
Undying is already dead now.
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I never said they where meta. I said that they where second chance perks. Don't move the goalposts. Being given a speedboost and the ability to insta-down anyone is powerful at all times when gens are done, not just off of hook. And you get it by losing. In a situation where someone gets unhooked while NOED is active... you can just instantly knock down the unhooker. DS doesn't really have a counter if you can't instantly knock down the unhooker, but that doesn't matter while NOED is active.
Getting stunned by a pallet is a mistake. If you're in a loop, making the wrong call and not respecting a pallet when the survivor drops it lets them gain a lot of distance on you. Enduring reduces that distance, Spirit Fury removes the pallet for future chases and can help you catch them quicker, and Nemesis tells you exactly where they ran to. Getting stunned without Enduring on it not a great idea unless you manage to hit them through a pallet, you're just giving them free distance. And if you don't hit them through a pallet, guess what, that's a mistake that those perks help cover up.
There's no way to bring back a sacrificed survivor either, what's your point? If you let a Gen you need to defend get to 99%, that's a mistake. With almost every other perk in the game, it's really tough to defend that gen when it gets there. But with Pop? Does not matter, a 75% gen is way easier to defend. Second Chance.
Undying still gives totems a second chance, it's just less effective now.
If you want to discuss the viability of second chance perks, then do that. Don't act like Killers don't have them then change your argument when someone says otherwise.
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Don’t forget, there’s also built in second chances for survivors such as 4% off a hook and the hatch :)
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It's almost like Killer and Survivor are two completely different roles with fundamentally different designs. You might as well ask why Survivors only have perks and no abilities.
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I have to disagree. Getting hit by pallets aren’t mistakes. Do you see what happens when killers respect pallets all the time? They lose. Killers do have them, but not to the extent you said.
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How is it not when it gives survivors a lot of distance? Sure, there are times when getting stunned isn't terrible, but you can be punished pretty badly by letting it happen. If you don't respect a pallet, and don't get a hit out of it, that's a mistake. One Enduring, Spirit Fury and Nemesis all activate off of. In those situations, without those perks, respecting the pallet would have been better, meaning that not respecting it was a mistake.
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NoEd, the mother of all second chance perks, would like to have a word with you.
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DS doesn't guarantee you an escape anymore than NoEd gaurantees you a kill. Please. DS can also be countered.
Let's talk about wasting time getting stunned or respecting palettes. Now let's talk about cleansin totems to counter noEd. Doing totems isn't a counter to NoEd. You are still wasting time one way or another.
See how that works?
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I would like to see more perks that allow you to mori.
Take Rancor for example. That's nasty. It's absolutely a second chance for you to flat-out OHKO + murder your obsession during end game without even having brought a mori.
The great thing about potential Moris is they can, potentially bypass DS
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Two of those got or are getting nerfed. Spirit furry isn’t really second chance you still get stunned, if you get hit with blood warden maybe just leave when the gates are open. Noed is the only slightly excusable one but ya know it can be taken out of the game pretty fast
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PGTW and Undying still give you second chances, which was the original argument.
Spirit Fury gets rid of the pallet, meaning you don't have to worry about it for future chases and gives you a quicker route to catch up to the survivor, if they run, and catch up instantly if they don't know and don't leave right away.
Blood Warden gives you 60 seconds to catch survivors while they have no escape, you'll probably catch at least one person if you play well.
NOED still gives a second chance, which, again, was the original argument.
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NOED can be taken out of the game pretty fast?
Explain why killers consider Undying to the their current best (OP) perk??? It's because it actually takes forever to cleanse all 5 totems while trying to finish 5 gens while trying to evade the killer while trying to complete your Archive challenge while trying to protect the most vulnerable survivor etc. etc. etc.
There isn't skill in eating a pallet, Spirit Fury is absolutely a second-chance perk. The Stun doesn't matter when the blockade that truly prevents you from killing the survivor just dissipated before their own eyes. The survivor is now FORCED to abandon their current loop and try to reach the next one before they go down.
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Blood warden only blocks People if they don’t leave making it the survivors fault not a second chance. Yes spirit furry gets rid of 1 pallet after you break 2 at the least. The stun still gives survivors enough time to get to a close enough loop unless you dragged the chase to a dead zone ( once again survivors fault). Pgtw doesn’t give a second chance it rewards you for doing your objective of hooking survivors.
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You have to actively go out of your way to get spirit furry to activate. The stun absolutely does matter it gives the survivor a chance to get away from the killer and to the nearest loop
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Dead Hard most of the time punishes Killers for not baiting it out. There are times where it's just a free loop extension, but most of the time it's not used like that. And it's encouraged to save hooked survivors in the endgame, where BW activates. That's not them messing up since they couldn't know about it, and are encouraged to stay behind.
Spirit Fury still helps you catch up faster by creating a path. Without it, if you didn't break the pallet, you'd have to go around the entire loop. As well as the fact that it does get rid of a pallet, rewarding you for getting stunned.
PGTW only works on hook, just like how Adrenaline only works when gens are completed. Both are still second chances.
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it is not a requirement to save people if they get downed after the gate is opened fire you go for the save you should be well aware of the chances that you could die by risking your live especially if you mess up. Except adrenaline heals you and gives you distance while pgtw only allows you to get rid of 25% of a gen after you chase someone hit them( twice in some cases) and then hook them all while hoping no one hopped on that gen before you go back to it and hope the timer doesn’t run out.
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It's not a requirement, and it does punish Survivors for messing up, but it also rewards the Killer for letting the gates be opened in the first place. It provides a benefit only after the Killer messes up.
That's a terrible argument, don't even try that. Adrenaline goes once per match, PGTW goes a ton of times throughout. Of course Adrenaline will have a bigger effect when it activates. And again, this isn't about viability, it's about how Killers do have perks that cover up mistakes. PGTW helps cover up mistakes. Blood Warden helps cover up mistakes. They are second chance perks.
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Like what? make pop work on completed gens?
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Hmm yes I forgot that every killer can see and teleport to both exit gates then down every survivor there. Your argument about bloodwarden being a crutch is extremely weak. Same as the one for pgtw it’s impossible for the killer to stop ever single survivor from working on a gen at once unless there’s a killer that allows you to hit one survivor but make all the others take the same damage state.
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So much wrong with this.
NOED is the only "second chance" perk. Period.
Blood Warden requires 9 different conditions to be met
Enduring doesn't get rid of the pallet, so it saved 1.5 seconds.. which could be literally nothing if the person just sits in front of the pallet waiting for you to break it.
Spirit Fury requires breaking pallets, and is only useful is you pair a 2nd perk with it
Nemesis? How is that 2nd chance? You are devoting a perk slot to where you are expecting to get continuously stunned, and your reward is no heartbeat? please
Pop requires you to down people, hook them, and run to a gen.. HOW is that a 2nd chance? You might as well call the act of kicking a gen "2nd chance" because gens should never regress
Undying.. it's a 2nd chance at not losing a perk, nothing to do with saving the game
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Please point out where I said Crutch. Or any of the things you're claiming I said. I never said it would win you the match. But if the gates are blocked, and you're near them, it gives you the chance to catch a survivor in a situation where you literally could not otherwise. You cannot catch a survivor at the exit gates unless you're running Blood Warden. That gives you more pressure, and more chances to get more kills, in a situation where you could not before. On some killers, like Oni with his power or Plague with Corrupt Purge, it could easily get you 4 kills off of one hook, if used at the right time. If that's not second chance, I don't know what is.
And for Pop, I never said it could defend every generator at once? A perk doesn't need to defend literally all of the gens at the same time to be considered a second chance. It gives you a second chance on a single Generator every time you use it. That 25% gives you a second chance to defend a generator when you probably couldn't without it. A perk doesn't need to ######### defend every generator on the map to be a second chance, or even good.
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That would make pop an actual viable perk.
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the survivors have to hand you your second chance for both, especially blood warden. That 25% chance is only usable when some one is hooked which happens after you down a survivor. It rewards you for doing your objective it doesn’t just hand you a second chance you have to work for the perk to kick in
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Noed: survivors are lazy free instadowns
Bloodwarden: Survivors aren't playing smart no one can leave
Enduring: Helps you play agressive if you are scared of getting pallet stunned
Spirit fury: Punishes survivor mistakes of not noticing they had enduring and probably also have spirit fury because they are only run together
Nemisis: I don't know how you even see this one as a second chance perk
Pop: Get rewarded for playing the game kinda like adrenaline so its basically the closest thing to a second chance if you count it that way
Undying: Survivors are too lazy to cleanse more than one totem easy permanent ruin
Survivors are just lazy/don't play smart these aren't second chances they are usually wastes of perk slots against actually good / smart survivors
you just want to defend your rainbow of second chances of reasons to not spend time becoming a skilled survivor
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Yeah, and Adrenaline only goes off when the Killer lets the gens be done. Unbreakable only goes off when the Killer leaves them on the ground. DS only goes off when they get picked up after getting off the hook. These things are unavoidable sometimes, you can't avoid being downed forever, sometimes you have to leave someone on the ground, or have to pick them up. Just because they require the other side to activate them doesn't mean they aren't second chances. A lot of strong perks rely on the other side to work, including a lot of second chance perks. This isn't an argument against them, because it applies to a lot of second chance perks. Of course, this applies to BW too.
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NOED: Not ran every game, wastes a lot of time getting rid of it
Blood Warden: It's encouraged to stay behind and rescue hooked survivors, even in EGC. There's no way to know the Killer has BW until it activates
Enduring: If you mess up at the pallet, you hardly get punished for it
Spirit Fury: Can be ran without Enduring (much less effective, but still doable), still negates some of the punishment from getting stunned, aka messing up
Nemesis: Helps mitigate the drawbacks of getting stunned by letting you track that survivor and activate obsession perks (this one is the least second chance out of all of them though, I will admit that)
Undying: Still covers up the drawbacks of not defending Totems, allows you to just ignore them and get their effects for a while
I don't play Survivor. Ever. Don't just assume that everyone who disagrees with you plays the other side. That's a bad mentality, and wont help you convince people of what you think.
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Because killers don't die.
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NOED: take a risk to be lazy or actually do a side objective
Blood warden: Predicting your opponent doesn't exist
Oh no a 2 second pallet stun becomes a 1 second pallet stun for giving up a whole perk slot and doesn't affect the 2.7 second breaking time buying you a minimum of 3.7 seconds instead of 4.7
Spirit fury its not used to negate punishment its used as a tool for m1 killers to gain more bursts of momentum at a cost of 2 perk slots
Undying kinda
pop is gone
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Dang you went in
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Those perks are countered as easily as breathing.
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You're complaining about Spirit Fury/Enduring and Nemesis?
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NOED: Wastes a lot of time if it's not in the match, not always easy to find every totem, not run every time so it's not always worth going for
Blood Warden: No one runs this perk. No one is going to predict you're running it, because the only reason to run it for memes. It's not great, but it's still a second chance
Enduring: That second matters, and makes it much less punishing to get stunned. The survivor cant' leave the loop if you have Enduring, they'll get caught in a bad position
Spirit Fury: It still negates punishment because it compensates for it. And I'm talking about just Spirit Fury, which doesn't have much use outside of compensating for getting stunned. It reduces the time needed to catch back up to them, and gets rid of the pallet for free. Giving you reward for messing up, just like all the other second chance perks.
Pop: Still gives you a second chance on gens. 15 seconds being removed doesn't change that. You just have to be quicker with it now.
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I'm not complaining, I don't think a lot of these are good. I'm saying that they are, in fact, second chances. Just like the bad Survivor second chance perks. Not an issue, but they are second chances. The original post said that Killers don't have second chance perks. Not that they don't have good ones, or viable ones. That they don't have any at all.
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none of your arguments about perks youve chose make sense
they all have plenty of requirements and counterplay
whereas perks that author of this thread mentioned have 0 counterplay and killer cant do anything to avoid them you just simply have to eat it and be forced to waste your time
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Adrenaline doesn't activate if you kill them before gens are done. If gens get completed while carrying a survivor, dropping and immediately hitting them gets rid of Adrenaline
DS is only unavoidable when paired with Unbreakable, with the reverse being the same
Dead Hard is only unavoidable when it's used to extend loops, most of the time it's not used for that
Borrowed Time is hard to avoid but doesn't waste much time, and wastes the time of the person you hit by forcing them to mend
The pallet perk is countered by just breaking the pallets (and really isn't that strong)
They're strong, but the only time they're unavoidable and wastes a lot of time is when paired together, which means they put 2 perks to create 1 unavoidable situation. Once they use an Unbreakable/DS, they lose that ability. It's strong, and it's annoying, but the only way they can create an uncounterable setup is by dedicating 2 perk slots for one use. I do think it should be nerfed, but they most of them do have counterplay right now. Having counterplay doesn't stop something from being a second chance.
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Anti Decisive Strike: If you are stunned when holding a survivor, for the next 60 seconds you gain immunity to the next time you are stunned and ignore it entirely. This ability is deactivated on use.
Survivors get 60 seconds of god mode I want in on that too!
xD
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agreed with adrenaline, except for its mostly used in the best way only on red ranks and that is not leaving generator no matter what just to finish it and then you just leg the killer in few second to another loop while the rest is opening the gates, another reason why its op is because you get it after being unhooked, meaning full heal + sprint burst, it also ignored the fact that you are exhausted
but ds is unavoidable on its own aswell, unbreakable just gives you alot less options to battle that perk as it removes slugging
dead hard is mostly used to extend loops, thats why its so problematic, its a free life by just pressing a button, why cant killer have a perk that does one health state damage when he presses E?
borrowed time is situational, but when a coordinated team has this perk you literary cant do anything usless you have some form of instadown which mostly you dont
pallet perk is kinda meh anyway
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DS you can just avoid the unhooked guy. If you go to the hook after an unhook, you can probably find the unhooker, meaning you can just ignore the DS. If you can't, slugging them is still effective, even if they have Unbreakable. And if you don't go to a hook after they get off, the only time DS will hit you is if you get unlucky and come across the only guy with it active. Sometimes multiple can be active, but it's not very common unless you're playing very well, or they mess up a lot. So it's a 1/4 chance at best to come across the active DS at random (Which is still bullshit and should be nerfed).
Unbreakable removes options but still can be countered. Unless you're playing Nurse, Oni, Myers, Twins or Plague, you don't need to slug that much. And even with those killers, usually there isn't more then 1, maybe 2. So if you get multiple downs, you'll probably still have a guy on hook to keep pressure up. Unbreakable is really only an issue when paired with DS, which makes someone invincible off of hook. It can save games, I've lost games because of a single Unbreakable before, but those are rare unless you slug a lot.
People dead-harding to extend loops is not that common in my experience. Most of the Dead Hards I run into are used outside of loops. When it happens, there isn't much you can do, but I don't think there's really a way to change that without a rework, and if any perk needs a rework, it is not Dead Hard.
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many players use it in a way where you cant ignore it, such as repairing gens at your face, body blocking team-mates and etc. its being both use agressively and defensively, which is just dumb that you can even do it
unbreakable and DS just has no counter, it has been proven many times
most dead hards are used to extend loops, thats why it is a problem and thats why some peole are complaining about it, your not playing against good players if they use it outside of loops
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