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I just don't care anymore at this point.
The fact that they have, once again, REFUSED to change DS or OoO is ######### outlandish, and yet not even 6 months after release undying got nerfed into the ######### ground just shows that they don't care. They need more survivors to play the game, so they refuse to fix things that killers have been complaining about for years, because they just don't care anymore. Keys are still a thing despite moris being nerfed into literal uselessness, and there is no update on when or IF keys will be changed. Yes, ruin undying was too powerful, I agree with that. but guess what else is powerful? Medkits, DS unbreakable, OoO with SWF teams, gen speeds at the state they are at, map offerings, keys, dead hard, borrowed time, and so much more. I honestly don't care at this point. I've just given up hope that this game will ever be balanced, so I now no longer feel ashamed of playing like a #########, because if I actually play nice and take peoples fun into account, I'm going to lose. Also, this joke of a clown rework and wraith buff is just sad. wraith needed a movement speed buff along with the invisibility, and the "afterpiece antidote" seems incredibly underwhelming and not helpful. the reload speed buff is nice though. I'm sorry for ranting, I just feel like I have lost hope for this game at this point. I love this game, I really do, and seeing it go the route its going makes me so sad.
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I stopped playing for almost 2 years until last October. Looks like I will once again be shelving this game.
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A small nerf would have been sufficient, but limiting its use to once and removing the auras of survivors was just overkill. I play both survivor and killer before anyone takes aim at me!
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I am a long time killer and I simply do not understand how so many killers can get upset about DS.
The devs won’t change it because the survivor can only use it ONCE. This means the absolute MAXIMUM amount of times a killer can be stunned by it is 4.
Just eat the stun. It’s really not that crippling. That survivor is now vulnerable for the remainder of the trial.
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ok, clearly you don't understand what 4 DS does to a killer. its not just 5 seconds of stun, its roughly 30 seconds on average of time lost. the fact that the timer is 60 seconds makes it so they can be unhooked, healed, another person does down, they go for the rescue, get hit, downed, and still have DS up. 4 DS stuns roughly translates to 2 minutes of lost time. that's enough for several gens to be popped if the survivors are competent. and when combo'd with unbreakable they have a full 60 seconds of invincibility. It is absolutely crippling because it basically gives a survivor a 4th hook state, and there can be 4 of them. I don't understand how you can't comprehend that.
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Eating one DS is incredibly crippling and I've lost momentum just because of one DS that I was forced to take because he just ran in front of me for hook save.
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DS is mostly fine. I'd reduce the timer to 45 seconds and disable it when in a locker. I rarely get hit with DS when I play.
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Weak killer complaint as far as I’m concerned, if someone happens to have it then I eat it too! I don’t tunnel so maybe that’s why I face it less than others.
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yes, you see that's a completely fair change. and yet they still haven't changed it. when you play as much as I do at rank 1, EVERY game has it on multiple survivors. By itself it doesn't bother me as much, but when combo'd with unbreakable it becomes literally cheating.
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Big true. It's not just a 5 second stun, it's the hook you just lost and the time you have to commit to get a new down, apply up to 4 times. And the security of DS allows them to sit on gens without worry, similar to sprint burst. It's lose lose whether you play around it or not.
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No tunnely, no 30 seconds lost.
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Except DS isn't just a 5 second stun. Even if the gamestate is favorable to eat the stun, if the survivor runs in a straight line, it takes the killer about 23 seconds to catch up to the survivor, so it's not a 5 second stun, it's more like a 28 second stun. If the current conditions are unfavorable to eat a stun, like the survivor is near a hooked survivor or a downed survivor, you have to waste even more time, and then if the hooked survivor is also carrying DS, there is even more time lost.
Assuming there's at least 2 survivors working on gens at any one time, each DS is worth about 56 seconds of gen time. If all 4 survivors have DS, this is a maximum of 2.8 gens done just for running a single perk, regardless of personal skill or effort. If all survivors are running this perk, they only have to put effort into doing 2.2 gens each map.
There's also situations where DS can be used offensively where the killer can't do anything against it like here.
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To be fair, some changes in this update are gonna be good. I think with Clown, Wraith and Undying they made the right calls.
That being said, I´m very disappointed about the small adjustment the Trapper got. Looking at his change log and the general patch schedule, it´s fair to assume that this is all the "help" the face of the game will get in 2021.
I´m also unironically contemplating if I will quit DBD for good should the new HUD be implemented in this manner.
I can´t help but share your opinion on Object and certain Survivor related balance issues. Regarding this perk specifically, I´m convinced that the insane amounts of negative backlash Ethan got for his stance on object caused the DEVs to leave Object as it is just to spite the Killer community as some form of "payback".
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Sorry, but this video shows less about DS being a problem and more bad decision making on that killers part. Steve enters her vision almost 1 second after picking up, are you seriously telling me the spirit didn't hear or bother to check around for another survivor? In addition, she also missed a swing at the end which doesn't help and also has her power available meaning she could potentially have got one of them at the end. Why not also step back and lunge then follow up with another hit if the player was that concerned about DS being active?
I get it, we know DS is problematic in certain ways but this post blatantly misrepresents the perk and takes some serious liberty with maths. Its a 5 second stun, but one that only provides about 3-3.5 seconds of clearance once you take into account the drop animation. Unless the survivor has a pallet or window nearby chances are they're going down within a few seconds. If you aren't tunnelling the likelihood of being hit by 4 DS's is remote (unless you really are having the game of your life in which case you're probably already winning comfortably so slug and proceed to wait out the potential unbreakable).
Locker DS is a problem I agree, but I've seen more games lost due to aggressive plays by survivors trying to bait me with their DS instead of actually using the perk to get away, heal or focus on a generator.
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The video elucidates DS' ability to be used offensively. You can pick apart every tiny millisecond of video and every minor mistake the killer made, but it doesn't change that fact.
You're right, my calculations don't tell the whole story, as I've left out the time it takes to down the survivor in the first place, which can take 20-30 seconds, providing an additional 40-60 seconds of gen time.
You also fail in your attempt to explain what a stun is. A survivor moves at 4 meters per second. A standard killer moves at 4.6 meters per second, 15% more. Lets just assume that what you said is right and DS gives 3 seconds of stun. A survivor has moved 12 meters in this time. The killer then gives chase. If the survivor is 12 meters away, while moving, it will take the killer about 20 seconds to catch up in a straight line. If there are obstacles in the way and the survivor successfully negotiates them, this time is increased.
This is basic math. If 4 DS's are used, and the survivors just run in straight lines after using them, DS has given them more than 50% of the time it takes to do all 5 gens, just on its own. Just by running DS, you increase your team gen efficiency by 56%.
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People still upset about DS.
It's not enough of an issue that it requires BHVR to fix it. I've been upset about BBQ for a long time but BHVR never fixed it. It's fine. Lots of players can 4K teams with 4 DS. I see it happen all the time (well 3DS -- I don't run DS). Same as BBQ. Lots of survivors escape all four even if killer has BBQ. I'm usually the one who doesn't escape.
But that's fine. Don't lose sleep over it. If it makes you stop playing, go ahead. You can always play Civ5. And you should. Take a break from the game. And for goodness sake if something isn't fun for you don't do it.
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How do you find the person who just did the unhook? In addition the unhooked person comes to provoke body block with borrow time. Sometimes tunneling is necessary otherwise you would lose even more time and the game, plus it puts more pressure on the survivors. Easier to play against 3 survivors than 4.
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This mentality is the same line of thinking I feel the developers have. And this is a really poor take.
DS is abused by groups (or coordinated randoms) to bait you into the stun and loss of time. This is supposed to be an anti-tunneling perk. Yet it's mechanics operate in situations like running into lockers and at end gates. Also, this is more designed to be anti-slugging with the ridiculous timer that someone can pretty much crawl out of an exit gate from so far away before it runs out... or use unbreakable... or coupled with borrow time lol. It rewards too many errors. If four people run DS on the team... it's literally poison to any skilled killer.as now you HAVE to tunnel because you sure as ######### shouldn't have to wait out timers all damn game. Which forces you to slug while this SWF constantly gets each other up and resets. At this point, the game just becomes about taunting and offensive plays.
Survivors play with way too much in their favor, to be honest.
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Exactly... that’s what I do; not a big issue at all
At this point, it feels as though it’s more of a “you nerfed this and that of mine, now I wanna nerf yours to get even” kinda vengeance from players.
DS isn’t a big deal... eat it, and play on
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Lol and you expect randoms to do the gens? That's hilarious, if this game were SWF only I would say DS is unfair but with the way some of these people play it's no wonder they've left it alone, not every solo game is terrible and not every survivor is bad buts it racks my brain how some of these people can be that stupid, how do they get to red ranks and still not understand how the game works?
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DS from killer perspective similar to if a survivor would repair a gen, they couldn’t repair another gen for 30 sec. Tunneling isn’t nice to experience, especially when my teammates don’t try to agro the killer, but it’s no different than jumping to one gen to an other.
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Which actually is a thing on DBD, since the player retention in this game is very poor. Scott actually made a video recently on this.
But basing game balance on bad play is a poor way to balance any game. Counting on players to be bad is actually why it's so painful to play as a solo survivor on this game, and it's why it's so painful to play killer at high ranks.
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Pointing out how the perk can be used offensively while ignoring context is just an attempt to overstate the impact of the perk. My point is that a lot of the whining people do about DS is less to do with the perk losing them the game and more about bad decisions being made worse by it. Someone using DS offensively (not withstanding the locker issue) in a lot of cases does far more harm to the team than benefit, particularly if it ends up with 2 downs and a complete loss of gen pressure from the remaining survivors.
Throwing in the preceding chase is just nonsense, that will occur regardless of whether a survivor is running DS. If you really want to be pedantic then by the time you factor in going back to the unhook, chasing and downing DS will nearly be out anyway. If that's how your playing then you're tunnelling anyway so the perk does its job. Leave them slugged, pressure elsewhere and come back. What i've said about DS's actual time is correct and it's rather telling you don't seem to know this. You also deliberately ignore the killers power in this equation of which there are a number of them who have catchup mechanics and a number who can slow down the survivor or prevent them going to a safe tile beforehand. Pyramid head outright can ignore DS if the survivor is tormented.
Once again, this is what I like to call "perfect world scenario" vs "actual game scenario". If you're getting hit with 4 DS's, you're already putting out an incredible amount of pressure via hook states. Throwing out numbers like "56% gen efficiency" is meaningless when you're destroying a team that hard. By the same argument I can say that for each DS not used a survivor loses 25% build efficiency, it doesn't mean anything without context.
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If you are taking 60 seconds to chase unhooked survivors down, you are losing the game.
If you are getting hit with 4 dses, you are not winning the game. If you are getting hit with 4 dses and still winning, you are not playing the game at a high level against even mildly decent survivors. The fact that you somehow can't understand how DS is used offensively also points this out.
When the balance of the game hinges upon the other player being bad, your game balance is horrible. Games should be balanced towards both sides playing competently. Even things like bloodlust should be out of the game, just because of the fact that it can be used as a crutch in lower levels of killer play.
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I agree with some of what you said but if all of what you said was true then playing killer at high ranks would be a walk in the park which we both know it's not when you're facing a good team, I think it comes down to some killers being able to handle the meta survivors and the killers who really lack map pressure or a threatening power being the ones that suffer the most against the meta, I'm not the best nurse in the world or anything but I can't remember the last time I didn't at least kill 3 when I use her, I 3kd the depip squad with my nurse back when they were active
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When you play killer at high ranks, you get a hodgepodge of very good and very bad survivors. This shouldn't be the case. The ranking system, especially on the survivor side, inflates their skill. As a survivor, you don't have to interact with the killer to get points and rank up. As a killer you HAVE to interact with ALL survivors to get points and rank up. The system is simply too lenient on survivors and allows them to be carried to ranks where they don't belong.
On the other hand, at high levels of play, this game is very painful to play, and it's primarily because the balance of the game is so focused on lower levels of play. Things like DS and DH are completely balanced at intermediate levels of play, but they become abusively broken when survivors are good enough to know how to use them.
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If they could push the potatoes out of high ranks then rank might actually start to mean something in this game
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Old ds would allow you to do exactly this with no fear either it's not like new ds suddenly let people be a lot more confident.
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Okay...and also irrelevant since a 60 second chase with or without DS will probably lose you the game.
If you are ending chases quickly enough to get hit by 4 DS's then you are winning the game. If you're against high level survivors there is not enough time to get hit by 4 DS's unless something has gone very wrong. In that mythical situation, you slug, simple as. Also, please don't twist my words, I've already stated locker DS is a problem which you ignored and that I'd like to see DS reworked to be better suited for anti tunnel.
The game doesn't hinge on it, it hinges on decision making, something which a lot of players (me included from time to time) get spectacularly wrong. Sure, there's some things which need reworking (effectiveness of SWF vs solo, how to make killer more engaging for players and improvements to weaker killers like wraith and trapper) of which you'll hear no argument from me. I'm simply of the hyperbole some people have around this games issues
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For me its not always ds but unbreakable to allowing them to do a gen in my face. If i smack them down they'll just get back up and get back on the gen and if i pick them up even though i obviously didnt tunnel i still get stunned losing all my momentum. But i do agree with the OP on OoO its been a long time coming and that perks gone unchanged for way to long.
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You aren't getting hit with DS every 5 seconds. The 4 dses is the span of the entire game. If you are getting hit by 4 dses, even in short succession, you are not winning the game. Period. If it takes you 10-20 seconds to down the survivor, then it takes you another 20 seconds to down them after you get hit with DS, and if you do this even once or twice, you are severely handicapping yourself.
I'm clearly not talking about jumping in lockers. I am clearly talking about other ways to offensively use DS, where you can basically just bodyblock the killer or throw yourself into a hook or dive into a downed survivor to save them, take the hit, and either force a slug in which case theres a survivor in the vicinity to pick you up, or stun the killer if you are downed near a pallet or if they have a flashlight, or force a DS, which allows both you and the survivor you unhooked time to get away. It's a way to almost completely mitigate any risk with doing altruistic actions in the killer's face. This is what you're failing to understand. It's not just the people that jump into lockers. You combine DS with something like DH and survivors have enough of a grace period to do anything they want right in the killer's face and the killer can't do anything about it. You combine DS with unbreakable and you completely negate the only counter to DS, which is slugging.
Now if you're the only survivor running DS in a game, you have now given an extra perk to all the other survivors in the game and you have altered the killer's playstyle, which favors the survivors. On top of that you give your team an extra 20-60 seconds of gen time.
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(20 char)
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Imagine telling to long time players like @TheClownIsKing they don't understand how the game works
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Thank you, thank you thank you!
I totally agree, eat the damn stun . Why are killers so afraid of getting a 5 second stun? Ds is really only strong at EGC.
But if you get it out of the way early, they won't have it at endgame.
I probably average 8 pallet stuns and a DS or two a game. And still get plenty of 4ks
Stop playing scared killers, you're the ######### killer!!
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Again, spectacularly wrong. If you're getting hit by 4 DS's you're putting out a lot of pressure already, more so if it's in a small window. If you're losing that much pressure over potentially being hit by later DS's then tunnel a survivor out who no longer has DS and reduce the game to a 3 v 1. You're also likely to draw the other survivors out as well as they'll try body blocking or going for the save, helping reduce pressure on gens. There is no situation where being hit by 4 DS's is unwinnable and if you cannot capitalise on the situation needed for that to occur then get better at the game quite frankly.
So what? The only one of those situations where you cannot play around DS is a locker, that is a lose lose choice for the killer. The other situations where the survivor sits on a gen, totem or goes for the unhook can be played around. People using DS offensively puts them and the person they're trying to help at risk and forces generator pressure to come to a complete standstill as the other survivors have to come in for the save. The only part I agree with is the synergy with unbreakable (a 1 time use) or some exhaustion perks but I have no idea how they could reasonably balance that.
I've seen what games look like where the killer knows there isn't a DS. It usually involves some poor bastard being tunnelled straight out the game. Reducing that functionality isn't an option, particularly for new or lower ranked players.
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I have a lot of time for Otz but he knows and has been on the receiving end of games where there is no obsession. There is a reason he runs it more often now as survivor and even in games where he's playing killer and takes multiple hits he usually destroys the team anyway. He's a very good example how DS in it's current format is not this unbeatable wall and I honestly dread how easy his games would be if DS was rendered useless.
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As survivor if I want to survive a trial I put on deliverance, ds, unbreakable and soul guard. No other perk combination can compete I have to unequip that god build after I get that escape because it is so god awful broken and it has been like that for far longer than ruin undying.
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Yes, DS is a very powerful perk. There is a reason why like 6 perks are used the vast majority of time as a survivor.
Survivor main: but killer kill rates are so high!!
Killer rates are high because of potato survivors. A group of survivor that is decent and efficient (not even sweaty or SWF) will make it to end game. I’m not that good and I get plenty of 3k/4ks because while i regularly see 2 or 3 good players (players that can loop, unhook or do gens) there is usually one or two that does something. . .. honestly I’m not sure what they do all game. Random totems (I don’t run ruin/undying), Looking at the pretty pictures on the wall?!? And 1 vs 3 favors killer. Solo que sucks. That is why i do mostly killer now.
Honestly I think DS should be tweaked a little, but i think keys are way more frustrating. . . But that’s me.
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You need to quit thinking you need to 4K every game and that "one time" use perks are overpowered. An aura perk where YOU can see the survivor when they see you is not overpowered. TRY to use that perk in a solo match?! Most don't have the balls to use OoO in a solo match, that shows how much of a downside the perk has.
Do you realize how hypocritical you are complaining about OoO when killers use aura and tracking perks every match? A perk here where both can see each other? A perk that people, for the most part, don't have the balls to use in a solo match? And SWF uses it not because they need it, they know where you are all the time because they have each others ears. They use it because their buddies can save them! That's how bad OoO is. It was only good previously in an old version of DS where you could save yourself. OoO is the most difficult perk in the game to use and you are wanting it nerfed. Shame.
DS was already heavily nerfed from a decisive strike to a killer's decisive strike. Killer is in control of when it is used. Stop tunneling.
The game is overall killer sided to a huge degree. Against the majority, killers are overwhelming overpowered.
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The devs suck dude! You should be like me and Join the idgaf club and play something else. This game isnt worth it buddy. Not spending another dime on this shat
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I´m sorry but this is the most ignorant and uninformed statement on Object I´ve ever read. You can´t be serious dude, can you?
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Object's downside is exactly the upside. How is that unfair for a killer?
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How is it unfair for a Trapper to have every single trap called out to the Survivor team?
How is it an upside to know where the object is? They are across the map, in a safe looping area on a gen, who would have thought!
How is it unfair that a Killer can no longer mindgame at tiles because every step gets called out to the chased Survivor?
How is it unfair to be able to perfectly rotate on the gens so the Killer starts every chase against a 10+ seconds headstart?
How is it an upside the Object can scout the Killer when they may not even be looking at them?
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If Object was so overpowered, everyone would use it. Think about it. DS is only popular because you never know when you'll have a tunneling killer. Otherwise, it is a garbage perk.
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Most people dont use it because 9/10 Survivors suck at the game, plain and simple. Its true power is only enabled via a team that uses comms, and in this scenario its the strongest thing in the game hands down.
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Nobody (at least the honest part in the community) wants DS to be useless.
People want this perk to act more like an anti tunnel perk instead of an anti momentum one.
Like,i get rarely hit by DS aswell,but if i do get hit it's by healthy people trying to save in my face but get grabbed,stun me and save anyway or healthy peoply i found working on a gen after hooking another person etc.
it just feels pretty dumb in these situations
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I think the problem our brothers and sisters have with DS is how punishing it feels when you don't tunnel
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DS is fine for most of the time.
i mean i get hard tunneled everytime i dont have DS. and i barely get DS'ed when i play killer.
Medkits are also fine.
the only thing i agree is OoO what is a very bad designed perk and needs a change.
Unbreakable is also fine.. dont see any issues.
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How is it the strongest thing when they already coordinated and know where you are? Balancing around a 4 man is not fair for everyone that doesn't play in a 4 man.
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Guy, how many times you 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4k? And don't tell me survs are very bad.
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It´s a difference between having an approximate information vs realtime wallhacks. I agree with your second statement, but extremely broken outliers need to be addressed to keep the game playable vs a skilled 4 man, too.
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