Undying needed to be nerfed, but have they gone too far?
Unless I’ve completely misunderstood something in the dev update, a player may as well run any 2 Hexes now.
Scenario 1. Player runs Ruin + Undying. The only meaningful effect they’re getting from this combo is from Ruin. From what I gather from the Undying changes, it will always ensure 1 hex transfer. Meaning survivors only have to cleanse 2 Hex totems at most (if no other Hexes are used). But until any cleansing occurs, there is only 1 impactful hex effect: Ruin.
Scenario 2. Player runs Ruin + Devour Hope (or other hex other than Undying). It’s still only 2 Hex totems that the survivors need to cleanse. If 1 is cleansed, 1 other effect remains until that’s cleansed too. But until ANY cleansing occurs, the player is afflicting the survivors with TWO Hexes.
See where I’m going?
I totally support that Undying was far too strong, but this particular upcoming change makes pairing Undying with 1 Hex rather pointless in comparison to just choosing to run 2 Hexes.
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It's not so much that undying didn't need a nerf. It's that whenever killers get something strong it gets nerfed, we just want that kind of urgency for survivors too.
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But do you understand my point?
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I get the point and I think I agree.
Undying, imo, did too much for a single perk. They needed to nerf one aspect heavily but leave the others intact. Instead, they nerfed everything on it and now you are better off running more Hexes.
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They always go to far on killer perks while doing side grades and minor tweaks on survivor perks.
The only time they ever did anything killer level to survivors is MOM and that is because it was universally agreed on that it was a terrible perk to have in this game.
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I see the point to an extent. It depends how much effectiveness you want from that one hex if you run undying. If there were a hex besides ruin that gave an immediate strong effect, I think double hex would be better. But the majority of hexes that become decent will still get cleansed once before it can peak so while you can run double hex, chances are only ruin will end up doing anything.
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If they hadn't added the caveat that allowed a transferred totem to keep its tokens, I would maybe agree. However, the simple fact is that who TF needs Ruin when you get all the game stall and map pressure you need by running Devour Hope. Gens flying by? Wait til you get three hooks, they'll stop like a truck into a reinforced concrete wall as everyone scrambles to cleanse Devour.
Plus, it's still okay with Ruin. Two effective Ruin totems is plenty decent, it's just not game-winning like Ruin/Undying currently is.
Edit: I reread your post and I kind of see your point, but also just adding in TOTH and a mobile killer and suddenly it's even worse than current Undying.
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This is a very good point. I think they’ve placed emphasis on Undying providing better mileage to Devour, Lullaby, and TTS.
However, disappointingly, for a Hex like Blood Favour (which I personally like), 1 transfer isn’t good enough anymore. Blood Favour was proportionally strong (or weak) depending on how long Undying lasted.
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I agree. Devour Hope is basically the best Slowdown-Perk in the game, once it reaches 3 Stacks. I have never seen a match where Devour Hope reached this stage and anyone was still doing Gens, especially, because the Killer got Hook Number 4 (and afterwards Stack 4) at this point when the Survivors know that Devour Hope is in place.
I also like that you can go for other Hexes now that Undying lets keep the Stacks. Because, lets face it, it was a Perk that helps Hex-Perks, but was only used with exactly one of them.
Let alone that Totem Spots are improved all the time, when the Asylum gets reworked one of the worst Totem Spots in the game will most likely be gone. And a Map with good Totem Spots + Ruin and old Undying can mean that the Survivors might never be able to cleanse Ruin. And Hex-Perks are not meant to stay up all game, if that would be the case, they would not be tied to a Totem.
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The difference between your scenarios is how much any given hex is valued in your build.
For example, if you were hellbent on getting Devour Hope to work, it would make more sense to pair it with Undying than with Ruin.
If you want to roll two dices, go for two hexes. The amount of hexes to be cleansed remains the same, but the hex that is protected by Undying has a slightly higher chance of surviving.
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It's the curse of inconsistent Hex perks: Some are strong because they build in power, some are strong because they get oppressive as the game drags on, some are trapped to punish cleansing, and one of them is so wierd and hard to place that the only things I can accurately say about it is that it's name is Hex: Blood Favour and that it often blocks pallets.
It's hard to balance defence perks like TOTH and Undying around protecting the weak perks but not the strong ones.
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I wouldn't run Ruin with any hex that required tokens to work (such as Devour). The moment survivors notice there's Ruin in the game, they start to look for it and can accidentally cleanse Devour/ another hex that they wouldn't have known about yet.
Undying is still good to use with hexes that need tokens, making them less risky than before. There are still good ways to make gens regress but before this update, there really wasn't good ways to protect tokens.
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Honestly, as glad as I am to be rid of the need to cleanse 4-5 totems, I am very, very scared of the Undying change.
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In my opinion they didn't go far enough. They should removed the aura reading altogether.
As for the two hex things... if you want to load up on hexes I don't think it's a problem The only thing is Undying only work once instead of multiple times.
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It's going to be a pretty mediocre perk if not outright bad now. The aura reading might as well not even be a thing (doesn't help with the totems that matter.) The fact it only transfers a hex ones is overkill if you ask me, it should of been 2 total.
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I think the changes to undying are fine. It's going to be fun using it with DH... 😏
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The point of the hex system is to make a gamble. You get a great reward for a risk. Ruindying made that gamble somewhat reliable/consistent and greatly lowered the risk factor, while also doing too little for token hexes.
The new iteration is still better than not having undying. A rng system is always gonna be frustrating, that goes with the territory. If you don't like it, don't use hexes.
So, I don't really think they went too far and now I can actually try to use Devour. Win in my book, if you ask me.
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Yes you are right, with the change if you run Undying Survivors have to cleanse 2 Hexes while being affected by 1, if you pick a nother Hex Survivors have to cleanse 2 Hexes while being affected by 2, while I do believe Undying needed changes I believe this change they made is in the wrong direction.
I believe the problem with Undying was not the perk itself but the combo Undying+Ruin+Tinkerer+high mobility Killer. Ive played against that combo on Myers, Ghostface, Huntress and Clown and while quite strong it wasnt THAT strong, but the same combo against Nurse, Demogorgon, Freddy, Hillbilly, Blight or Spirit and it was unbeatable, those had way too much pressure and when you finally got rid of it they were close to win and very few gens were done.
Now that combo needed a nerf, Ruin has been nerfed already, Tinkerer has been buffed and its not that strong outside of that combo, high mobility Killers need to be nerfed separately and would create a huge backlash so the only variable left was Undying and they went for it.
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Well let's play the PTB hope the devs see how it's nerfed too much. And pray to Jesus they make a more reasonable change. Then watch people still complain.
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Anything to keep the survivors happy. It's no surprise it got NERFED and if Undying + Devour is too powerful, it'll be NERFED too. As long as there is no competitor to this game, it will keep happening.
No disrespect to anyone. Just my opinion
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Exactly what I thought too, as I realised Undying+Devour would be nice to try out. If it is too strong they will nerf it in 3 months or even earlier. Still waiting for all the Survivor meta crutches to be nerfed though: especially DS (make it a real anti tunnel perk with some conditions) and Adre (either heal OR a SB but not both), but also OoO (add minimum distance) and maybe UB (normal recovery rate)
Greetings, a player who enjoys boths sides :)
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I agree, but I would say the same to Thrill of Hunt & Retribution.
Thrill of Hunt give you noti directly to Hex
Retribution only give you something in return after Hex is gone
Undying now just to make sure your other Hex isnt gone on first touch
Compare all of these to old Undying, no doubt why Undying is the only choice of the three Killer pick to protect other Hex.
Old Undying is too OP, but I agree with you, just better to run double Power Hex than a Power Hex and a Protect Hex
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Imo they just needed to remove the aura reading and it was fine.
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Why do we need a new Undying? Thrill of the Hunt does a much better job of protecting the totem. And Undying is now a trash perk (
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I kinda see your point, but Undying will make sure that Ruin won't be the first to go. If you run Devour and Ruin, there's still the possibility that Ruin will disappear at the start of the game. If you run Undying and Ruin, Ruin will be up for a guaranteed two cleanses.
I honestly think that the Undying changes open up more potential from the perk. While it's a nerf to Unruin, it's now compatible with token-based hexes, which are a big chunk of the non-defensive totems.
Hell, throw Thrill of the Hunt in the mix and you can defend every totem really well. Thrill will give slowdown and notification when they're cleansing a hex totem and Undying will let you defend the Dull totems.
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The difference is that with undying you bassicly have 2 ruins.
With ruin+devour hope you only have one ruin.
If you really want to have the ruin effect you'll go with undying
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Notice how STRONG Killer perks are only STRONG WITH ANOTHER ONE, but Survivor crutches are strong alone?
DS alone can change a win into a loss.
UB can save you from an all slug to survivors healed.
BT gives you the sack to save in killer face and he can't do nothing. And so on.
Undying was useless on its own and strong with arguably 1 other perk. Tinkerer is cool, but useless on low mobility killers. Spirit Fury is useless on its own and needs Enduring. PGTW requires a hook. No hook, no use of perk and it can't be paired with RUIN or be used on regressing gens as is. Surveillance was NERFED (*fixed) and so on.
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It does not slow game down, it speeds the game up for killer through downing quicker and mori. One of the popular suggestions for Ebony Moris and Ivory Mori was that these mori should only work when the killer hooks each person once, that suggestion is similar how devour hope works. Devour hope is kinda like an earned NOED. From my experience of using the perk, 33% of the time, the perk gets disable before it has any impact on the match, 33% of the time, it ends up activating but it get disabled before the killer get a mori and other 33% of the time, the killer gets a mori from it.
While it sounds good to instantly win 1/3 of your games from this perk, The requirement of 5 stacks means that either all of the team got hooked once or that two people are death hook and when a game for killer has lasted that long for killer, more often than not, the killer is already in a winning position and does not need devour hope to win. In other words, the survivor was incompetent from the start and the perk largely is overkill. Its large reason to why the perk has largely been ignored by the killer community because old/new ruin helped at all points in the game and has concurring effect of being stronger the better the killer player was with that killer.
A year ago, they said they do not like killer perks that slow generator down and how it was popular strategy. So in their eyes, nerfing Undying+Ruin is mission complete just like pop goes weasel. The perks becoming weaker will not affect affect experienced rank 1 killers however many games were very close because of Ruin+Undying and now they'll be sure wins for survivor especially for weaker killers with no real competition if both sides are of equal skill. Its funny because it was barely close with those perks as many teams did successfully cleanse all 5 totems and complete all 5 generators or come very close to doing so. so much for those improved totem spots.
Conclusively, maybe we should ask survivor main community for what perks they do not mind losing to and dev can make those killer perks meta. Clearly the survivor meta is well established with exhaust perks and second chance perks like DS/BT/UB that only slowdown the killer from getting kills. No clue for what was wrong for killer in slowing gens to cancel out survivor perks. I guess we're stuck with killer being perk-less for a little while.
Post edited by Devil_hit11 on0 -
Over nerfed imo.
One maybe extra totem cleanse for an entire perk slot? Really?
Your worst case scenario is Undying gets cleansed first and you wasted a perk slot for literally nothing. Now your best case scenario is they just have to cleanse one more totem...that's garbage.
Now as if that wasn't bad enough we also had the aura reading gutted so that now it only shows on dull totems...which is useless since we no longer care about those since it isn't jumping to them anyway.
If you're going to risk an entire perk slot for a hex totem that may do nothing that's a big gamble, so there needs to a high reward chance to warrant that high risk chance. That high reward chance is longer there.Your best possible outcome is pretty mediocre.
Not worth using at all any more. Undying was also the only thing making Ruin good, without it Ruin is mediocre.
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Actually if ruin is cleansed then it transfers. Which still leaves 2 active totems. It could then be a 50/50 whether ruin is cleansed or undying (not entirely 50/50 if you know some info already but not the point). If undying is cleansed next it’s 3 totems to cleanse before ruin is gone not 2 which for players who haven’t played enough to memorise all totem spots can be pretty difficult to find. It also has the aura reading so it’s deffo better at protecting ruin than just running it with another perk. Whether it’s worth running or not I’m not too sure yet, probably not but it’s not as bad as everyone is making it out to be
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Just to be clear, I’m not whining or complaining (like my usual angry rants). I’m putting up what I thought was a reasonable comparison as to why someone would now run Undying instead of just an additional Hex instead.
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I’m pretty sure the devs said that once a successful transfer occurs, Undying gets disabled. So it’s still only 2 cleanses. Unless I misunderstood what the devs said.
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Wait I just thought it meant it’s transferring power of other perks gets disabled. Tbh I’m not actually sure which one it is then
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The Undying rework was probably done so that if a killer brings two hex perks, only two hexes have to be cleansed.
This keeps the hex:cleansing ratio at 1:1
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