A real question looking for REAL answers
First off I'm not here for none of that us vs them mentality on this post. I just have a question and hopefully I can get a real answer from a few people here.
With that being said I have one question I want to ask (and no I'm not some salty "enter role here" player complaining its just a real question). For the most part when a perk comes out that changes the killers meta (like ruin/undying, ruin/pop, this or that) why do these perks get nerfed for being used too much or being too good. But when there are survivor sided perks that are used in pretty much every match ( Unbreakable/DS/Sprint Burst) they rarely get changed (or at least in a drastic way) to pretty much change the survivors meta perks?
Yes, yes I know it sounds like an us vs them question but I'm not coming from side. I am just curious to see if anybody else could fill me in on your opinion on it. And yes I am aware that DS has been changed before and BL has been too but I never said survivor meta perks never get changed, I just said rarely. This isn't about me complaining about the undying changes, it is just me asking a legit question and want to hear others opinions.
And no I'm not a rank 1 survivor or rank 1 killer tbh the highest survivor rank i got was 4 and highest killer rank I got was around 4-5. Please keep it a civil discussion. No "small peepee" build trash talking, once again I am just curious to know what other people think
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Never ascribe malice to what can be explained by incompetence. I think it has been pretty clear which side BHVR falls on. There are gaping holes in their game, and they decide to fix some niche survivor perks.
They really don't understand their game. Just look at the Twins chapter.
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It's hard to say at the moment. It's baffling how DS hasn't been changed given the devs have expressed interest in it. As well as the fact it's easily abusable when coupled with unbreakable.
Yet undying, which is reliant on good totem RNG. Can be removed from the match when found. Which can be accomplished with the help of maps, or two perks. In a hex centric meta I have no idea why no one would run those, then complain that undying/ruin is too strong.
I hope the devs have a plan for it, but it's hard to say when these devs have been known for a severe lack of communication with their own community.
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You're going to get us vs them answers, but we can only speculate unless BHVR actually says anything.
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I rarely have gone against undying/ruin but I run detective's hunch just because i run inner strength so the few times i have gone against it, it was never a big deal. I mainly started thinking about this topic when pop was nerfed. Like the devs saying "60 seconds was too much time for a killer to do other stuff and still have pop active" but the same timer applies to DS and nothing is done about it, its just "its being looked into"
I've just never understood that devs vision when it comes to some balance changes and I'd really like to know exactly what makes them decide something needs to be nerfed
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Honestly, I kinda wish it stayed. Sure it was meta or “boring” or whatever, but everything has it’s meta.
Playing Survivor, the Ruin/Undying combo gave me something to worry about. The Killer running it was at least decent or oppressive (not in a bad way). With any other build, I didn’t have to worry about anything except getting bad teammates or something.
This all just my opinion though. I think the issue comes when DS/Unbreakable can only be used once per Survivor, that’s probably why it isn’t getting nerfed or reworked.
Probably.
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Statistics, match making and challenges. The devs are balancing towards what they see through the data. The problem is that the statistics don't show the full story. All it takes is 1 survivor doing a challenge, getting demoralized by a build/ killer or just bad matchmaking and it has a knock on effect on all other survivors making them perform more poorly too. Add on the fact that it's easier for survivors to tilt the statistics than for killers to.
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Yeah I know I will, I just wanted to say I didn't want those answers so when they start coming I will just ignore them.
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First off, I’m middle of the road survivor/killer.
That being said, I think the nerf was fair. Here’s how I judge. If Undying had been introduced to the game originally in its upcoming post-nerf state, what would’ve been the reception?
My opinion, killers would’ve absolutely loved the opportunity to give any poorly placed hex a 2nd chance! Then there’d be discussions about making the perk like it is now and and people would think the idea is ridiculous.
Anyway, that’s how I decide if nerfs are fair or not.
(For the record, I used the same method to decide that Billy did NOT need to have so many add-ons gutted).
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I feel this is a question only the Dev's can answer and am curious to know the answer too. I'd love to have the gameplay tweaked to where I feel I don't have to run DS. I hate running DS, I really do. Its a one-time chance perk that I'd rather not touch but there's always those Killers who make me feel like I have to put it into my loadout. Yesterday I got tunneled twice directly off of a hook by a Plague when I took my DS off, and what made it worse was that me and my friends wanted everyone to get a good portion of BP's at the end of the match so we ran 3 BPS and 1 Ghastly Gateau. I got less points than I would if I were running a regular game with no extra BP's offerings. Lol
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For the pop change ,It's blatant hypocrisy, Which they got relentlessly called out for by the community. It's wierd they even changed it, when hardly anyone complained about it.
I've learned not to expect much from these devs. Even with the lowered expectations I'm still disappointed in some of their updates.
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There is no telling why they do this or that. They fix things nobody was asking for (and arguably didn't need a fix) and ignore things which people have been screaming about for years. I try not to worry about it too much. It is THEIR game, we just play it. I take control of the things I can control and deal with the in-game obstacles best I can. I make the odd suggestion over here, and comment on things I find concerning (like the change in Rank and MMR soon) but in the end I will adapt and play on, or if not having fun... move on. That is all any of us can do.
If I were to guess, based entirely on the limited evidence I've seen, this game is a vanity project that exploded and became surprisingly successful. To me it feels like a game that the Developers do play off and on, but largely they have their hands full also with the other games and projects this company is working on. They take very little feedback seriously, and make changes based entirely on their own, limited in house game play. Since they are NOT racking up thousands of regular hours in this game, they don't have the same experience we have.
Moreover, they suffer from the disdain all artists and businesses do as time goes on. They don't like us. Make no mistake, they do not see us as a family, a community, or any of that nonsense. They are a business and we are customers, and noisy customers are an inconvenience. Customers who demand things (even if justified) will only sound entitled to them. This is because for every one customer who asks for, suggests something, or deserves something validly, there are a thousand undeserving YELLING their suggestions and making their demands. They tune us all out; can you blame them? This is not a condition unique to Behavior; most companies that deal with regular feedback and input from their "fans" get the same burnout. They do not like us; they are required to pretend they do.
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Killer perks (with few exceptions) have a significantly greater effect on how the match goes relative to survivors' perks.
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I am in the same boat as you. I run DS because I do not like getting tunneled, its annoying but it happens. But I know that DS is so annoying to go against as a killer and the biggest "i can do anything i want" perk in the game. So I run DS but I kind of use it as if it has limitations to it. Like if I get unhooked and the killer goes straight to me ignoring everybody else, I use it. But if the killer avoids me and I get working on a gen or something, even if he finds me again within that 60 seconds after finding/hooking somebody else, I don't go for the ds. I ignore it. He didn't tunnel me and DS is an anti tunnel perk so I just put limitations on when I use it so its not just get out of jail free
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How common is the situation where you think "You know what, I don't need DS, i'll unequip it for something else!"
Only to immediately have a game that justifies putting it back on?
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That's exactly how I use it too. I'm not oblivious to the fact that some Survivors absolutely abuse the hell out of their advantage with it. I can see it from both sides of the spectrum which is why I'd love for BHVR to brainstorm as to how they could break DS and Tunneling out of being in a meta loop.
Let me run my nerdy/underrated builds again! </3 D;
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Probably because for every killer player there are four survivor players. I do not believe the game is as survivor sided as some people do, not absolutely survivor sided at least. Because there /is/ some bias in keys, OoO and the DS+UB combo remaining untouched after all this time; however, survivors have received multiple nerfs the past year, the main ones being the nerf to toolboxes/etc and the elimination of infinites, plus some of the reworked maps are now full of dead zones that weren't there before. HOWEVER, like I mentioned, there IS bias in some surv stuff remaining unchanged while the killer stuff got nerfed (keys and OoO being the biggest example imo).
But like I said, when they nerf killers, roughly 20% of their playerbase complains. Meanwhile, when they nerf survivors, this is received as a negative thing by 80% of the playerbase (no matter how justified those nerfs were). Hence they can't go as reckless nerfing survivors as they do with killers.
This is what I believe, at least.
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Quick and quiet, dance with me, head on, pebble, always been my fav build xD
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I'd say it's because if their stats. It may have a low global use rate and then there's the 60 percent kill rate at red ranks at its lowest. Doesn't mean it isn't broken in some situations and their lack of meaningful matchmaking doesn't help either.
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2/3 games but then again I can't really say any other fraction because I barely put hours into the game anymore.
BHVR make DS unnecessary to run please. Put on your brainstorming caps and change something, v_v.
ANYTHINGGGGGG.
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The real answer to your question is 100% an Occam's razor situation.
It's simply that Behaviour is excessively metric-driven, and they look at data that says stuff long the lines of:
- "Hex: Undying is used in X% of matches, and results in Y% of killer wins, which blows way past our Z% target threshold. Therefore, it needs to be adjusted."
- "Decisive Strike is used in X% of matches, and results in Y% of survivor wins, which is within the Z% target threshold. Therefore, it is fine."
Behaviour is really, REALLY bad at seeing or understanding the emotional, human angle of why something is frustrating or excessive. They approach everything like engineers, and their approach to balance is way too robotic. Look at how long it took them to adjust the effect of Memento Mori offerings, and that involved nothing more than changing a number.
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I think a lot of things come into play when it comes to this issue. I could totally be wrong and uneducated on the manner but, I think the survivor player-base can be bigger and louder when it comes to requests for the devs.
The nerfs given to The Killer are fair to me and overall make the game healthier! Especially the mori changes. However, this also becomes frustrating when the survivor equivalent gets overlooked.
I think the devs consider the player base, funny moments on Twitch, feels of a 'rush,' etc when it comes to making these choices.
Killers do get updates and adjustments but, it never feels like an actual address to the problems for Killer right now.
(I would love to say I play both equally, but lately, I've been playing Survivor more because Killer can be so stressful for me right now.)
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Yes!
For me:
Pebble
Technician
Resilience
WGLF
<3
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All hail the mighty pebble! /church choir
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PEBBLE POWER
this thread is about to just be a pebble appreciation thread xD
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LOL. Pebble is POWER!
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I definitely think that's something that needs to happen if want to slow down the game. If we want games that don't end in generators finishing in 2:30, we also have to address things that the killer can do to snowball as well. That means, slugging, camping, tunneling, tatics that anyone can do (and should at least learn to in current meta) that innately slow down the game has to be looked at.
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Not to sound mean as I do quite like the members of BHVr I've seen on dev streams or from talking to in chat of their personal streams, they're all nice people and clearly care about the game a lot. But a lot of the balance changes and event changes in the last year or so have been bizarre.
I thought 2019 was the best year for DBD by far, great new content, good balance changes, fun events. But 2020 has sucked.
They brought back exclusive cosmetics after saying they wouldn't. They nickle and dimed the ######### out of players for eternal blight. BLight was the only killer from this year that was fun for both sides. PH was incredibly uninspired power wise and despite being an SH fanboy I think Midwich is the worst map ever added to DBD.
And on the balance side-
Stuff like the reasoning for not changing OoO or nerfing/reworking slowdown perks to be less "oppressive" but not actually looking at the reason why so many players use them really shakes my faith in them. The pathetic change to PHs 50/50 that didn't fix any of the problems with him being insanely boring to face. Deathslingers entire 1v1 in general.
And in regards to Survivor-
Sure, people die a lot with OoO. But it makes the match utterly miserable and unfair for the killer and it almost exclusively used in SWF comm parties to troll the killer.
Nerfing Pop because players could "do too much and still have it active" meanwhile DS is still the problem child of DBD.
I hate the "Us VS them" mentality of killers vs survivors on here. I try to be more impartial, but in regards to perks they're really coddling survivor players recently.
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While I'm iffy on Undying being nerfed (I would have been fine with just removing aura reading but ultimately it doesn't affect me too much), as a solo player I just threw on Small game. Voila. Sorted. Heck even repressed alliance can be a decent counter to ruin.
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Same. If they got rid of the aura reading, I think it would’ve been just fine.
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Bhvr does make the game better overall, I'll give them that.
It just takes them years to do what takes most developers weeks to do.
So odds are EVENTUALLY they will do something about that; but I wouldn't expect it anytime in 2021 even.
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I feel it didn't really need a nerf as I was fine with it and ther were multiple counters to it (like seriously did everyone forget soul guard exist). I think they were specifically targeting the fact that you can unknowingly Break multiple ruins and still have it up thus contributing to its massive RNG problem.
But I think what survivors fail to realize is that changing the meta for killers and survivors is good for them as well as it leads to intense, fair and fun gameplay.
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Its a common misconception as players really only see what affects the main role they play.
Take the MoM nerf two weeks after release, now we all knew it would be silly OP but they released it and then nerfed. It basically just gave the effect rather than have to work for it upon release. Now people always justify this nerf but its still Its the same scenario they just waited for more data on undying.
Undying had a similar reaction when it was announced with people not saying it was completely OP but concerned how it would affect gameplay in an oppressive way. In essence it was also passive effect paired with ruin each time a survivor left a gen that could last too long along with the aura effect for a lot of information. The rng aspect was not great for the game imo as its one of those who knows scenarios. This means it was down to luck with how well the perk did against or for you.
I really don't mind the change as it still serves a purpose its just not as strong rng wise and they are working on totem placements constantly.
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2019 imo wasn't a good year at all for the game. The game once again started becoming extremely unbalanced due to the typical BHVR stuff. They would nerf one thing on one side that would heavily skew the game to the other side. They have a habit of being like "oh X for the killer is strong and Z for survivor is strong so we'll get rid of X now and then look at Z at a later time" and yes they've done things like "X for survivors is strong and Z for killers is strong, we'll get rid of X and look at Z at a later time."
Like the whole mori nerf. I am over the moon excited that they finally changed it to death hook in order to get moried. I love that change. But keys are untouched. Now 6 or 7 out of 10 of my games one of the other survivors have a key, do nothing but get free hatch escape. I'm tired of being solo survivor filled with potato teammates escaping cuz they hide with a key
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You can't stop a killer from tunneling or being near the hook without it looking really really stupid and being a massive freebie to the survivor player/s
DS is needed but it needs tweaks to make it anti tunnel not anti momentum such as not being able to touch a generator without losing it.
As for the op, the problem is survivor perks seem to get long thought out side grades where the perk still does exactly the same thing, just in a different way. While killer perks get massive changes that change the perk to something else entirely or make it a husk of its former self.
Look at undying. People seem to have glossed over the fact that destroying ruin would change it to a possibly unknown dull totem. After the nerf it will not randomly move but will be one of the two totems lit from the start of the match that could both be in bad spawns or all survivors have already found and you are defending.
It has lost its reset potential.
The only thing i can put it down to is money. Killers don't really buy cosmetics.
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There were definelt some weird balance changes that year as there are every year. But I'd consider the new content and additions from PTBs to be the best year ever for this game.Think thats why 2020 DBD feels so wack and boring to play, at least to me.
Matchmaking has gotten so much worse in 2020 that its actively keeping me away from the game.
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If their changing something, probably based on data. Sure they have powerful, maybe even AI tools that are identifying metrics, patterns, trends...
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