Gameplay balancing

The only people who don't think survivor is the OP side in this game are the ones that don't play both sides at a meaningfully high rank. This is a skill issue.

@c_firavel said:
I'm not a noob. I've played on both sides. Time amounts to nothing if the killer can one shot you or find you without scratch marks on the ground and also not injured. I don't care what the devs or streamers say, but the odds are heavily stacked against the survivors.

I play both sides as well, and it's good that you don't necessarily care what the people who play the game for a living think, but let's look at what you're saying objectively.

First off: it's too easy to find survivors. Killers have a few tools in their kit to find survivors, few of which pinpoint your location until and unless you're a decent distance away from the killer, or you're completing objectives. That's assuming you aren't failing skill checks. What's more, the more a killer devotes to location perks, the more they take away from their ability to kill once they find you. So, yes, a killer can run BBQ & Chili, Rancor, Whispers and A Nurse's Calling, but then they give up things like Brutal Strength, Bamboozle, Spirit Fury, and Enduring to end chases faster. They can use a combination of the two, in which case they give up perks which slow down the start or the end of the game, such as Ruin, Remember Me, etc.

So, as a killer, we can only locate and kill you faster, if we give up tools to ultimately win the round. Because, remember, finding 1 survivor and downing her isn't enough to win a round or even pip, particularly not when there are 3 other survivors all completing objectives at the same time.

Second: you claim killers are over-powered compared to the survivors. The truth is, killers only win because survivors make mistakes. If I find you, for example, straight off the bat, you can loop me all by yourself the entire match, while the other three accomplish generators. With double pallet, double window loops, and the number of pallets and windows available on every map, it is entirely possible that a killer is looped by a single survivor an entire match. It happens all the time. Our only tool against this is to give up the chase and find someone else who isn't as skilled to kill.

Look at when you're killed: did the killer "mind game" you? Meaning, did they fake left to force you to jump a pallet, only to go right and catch you? That isn't the killer being over-powered, that's you being out-gamed. Did another survivor jump through the window ahead of you and force you to take a hit? Again, that isn't the killer being over-powered, but you being out-played and not finding an alternative escape.

The vast majority of the time, the killer can only catch you because you made some mistake, or someone on your team did. Did one person drop every pallet on the map in the first two minutes of the match during a chase? Blame that survivor, not the killer. Using up all your defenses wasn't the killer being OP, but your fellow survivor being a fool and unskilled.

Third, what does it take for a survivor to "win." If you mean pip'ing, it isn't escaping the match. If all you do is complete 1 generator, make 1 safe hook rescue, and survive for 9 minutes, you will at the least safety pip, and not reduce in rank. With a 2-minute hook timer, that really means surviving for 7 minutes off the hook. If you do mean escaping the match, consider that the killer (who is also another player) is also trying to "win." If all four survivors are able to escape the match and "win" every round, or even most rounds, you will find you have no killers to play against.

Forth, the killers are supposed to be stronger than you. Why? Because there are 4 of you and 1 of her. You're supposed to be able to utilize your abilities and teamwork to complete the objectives while the stronger killer is supposed to be slowing your progress down and eliminating you. And, as the game is currently balanced, the survivors have the advantage here. The advantage the killer has is that they run faster than you most of the time. Okay, but running faster doesn't help if I have to slow-vault through every window, and stop running to kick every pallet. Then I have no advantage at all, and all the advantage belongs to you.

Fifth, look at your original post: "they can find you if you're standing out in the open." No kidding? Using your own term, why are you "standing out" and not expecting to be found? If you're "standing" in "the open," and you don't expect the killer to see you and give chase, I'm not sure what to tell you. With Urban Evasion and utilizing map features, there's absolutely no reason for you to be caught out in the open. Particularly not when, the vast majority of the time, you get a heartbeat warning of the killer's presence before they could ever see you.

Are there killer perks that make it easier for them to catch you, or stealth up to you? Absolutely. Myers utilizing the scratched mirror and monitor and abuse can see you through walls and catch you off guard without any warning. This is a "gimmick build" which utilizes a rare add-on, and simply cannot be used every round or even the majority of the rounds, and is only effective in Lery's, which requires yet another hard-to-find offering. No killer gets enough bloodpoints to run these combinations every round they play. But more than that, the stealth killers all have significant draw-backs as well: the Pig, if seen coming, can't catch a survivor based on her crouch speed, she has to stand up and turn into a base-line killer with no particular advantages over other killers. And, you always know you're facing a Pig based on the saw traps located all over the map, long before you hear her growl. Freddy is another stealth killer, but you can always hear his song before he can put you to sleep, and have an incredible 7 seconds to evade or break the sleep before he can ever touch you. Wraith, another stealth killer, can still be seen running around while cloaked. And, even if he gets close to you before you see him, has to wait through coming out of cloaking before he can even touch you.

The Doctor specializes in being able to find survivors, yes. And yet, his ability to kill is limited. He can use his power only by also slowing his chase speed and giving up the ability to hit a survivor at all, and he can only chase a single survivor at a time. Even if he knows where everyone is, he can only chase one person at a time. The moment you see one player scream into Madness 1, you should be running in to do the same thing. Again, the Doctor can only chase 1 survivor at a time, and when all 4 scream into Madness 1 at the same time, it vastly reduces his ability to track down the second survivor after downing the first.

But, okay, you get found early, get downed and hooked. Once you're pulled off the killer has to do that to you, and all three of your allies, again and again and again before you're dead. The match isn't over just because you were caught once: you get chance after chance to get out alive.

One-hit downs is something you complained about. Without utilizing ultra-rare perks, this refers to three killers: The Hillbilly, The Cannibal and Myers. Two of them I would consider "top tier" killers: Billy and Myers. But Billy can't turn effectively while chainsawing and has to wait through the charge-up time, making avoiding the chainsaw a lot easier than avoiding his mallet, and Myers can only stay in insta-down mode for 60 seconds at a time. He's further limited by the number of times he can enter tier-three to perform one-hit downs. So, if the survivors are utilizing line-of-sight breaking objects to stop Myers from tier'ing up, it's relatively easy to deprive him of the ability to tier-up and kill survivors if he doesn't get into tier 2 relatively quickly in the match.

But, I hear survivors complain, "I was camped." Getting face-camped sucks for that survivor, there's no doubt about it. But a killer who face-camps will (or should) lose the round. Let's suppose you were unlucky and were found in the first minute of a match, and let's suppose you were down'ed in the second minute. You were then put on a hook and face-camped for the three-minute death counter. That's five minutes, during which time the other three survivors have amble time to complete three generators and start on the final two. If the killer does it again, the remaining two survivors can finish the final two generators and open the exit gates even before the second survivor dies, giving them the opportunity to bait the killer away, or utilize the hit-recovery mechanic, or Borrowed Time to rescue their ally, or just get out without making the save. In this example, the killer would have downed two survivors, killed one, and not earned enough points to pip. Even if the second down'ed survivor dies on the hook, it isn't enough points for the killer to pip. The only way this strategy works is if the other survivors rush into the camp'ed location and recklessly try to make the save instead of completing objectives.

If you really want to take a look at "camping" or defensive playing, check out this video first (NSFW language warning): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c3kz80t-Cc

But, you might complain, "I was tunneled." I'll never understand why survivors think of this as a toxic way to play. All else being equal, if the killer has the chance to chase player 1 or player 2, and player 1 is already injured or closer to death, why would she chase player 2? For the same reason that survivor's body-block and run interference to pull the killer's attention, the killer should be focusing on making the kill. That's why they're killers: to kill. And, if you don't have the time to rescue someone from the hook and find a safe place to recover, you're to blame and should have played options instead of pulling an ally off the hook when it wasn't safe to do so.

And before you say, "what about the hag?" Or, "what about Insidious..." The Hag is so easily countered as to be ridiculous. Crouching as a survivor eliminates her traps entirely, that is if you don't have a flashlight to take away her traps entirely. If you don't know to crouch, don't blame the Hag, blame your understanding of mechanics. Insidious only works when the killer stops chasing and lays in wait, usually where the hooked survivor can see them. But, let's suppose a clever killer sets their trap and uses insidious out of view where the hooked survivor can't see it? It shouldn't work more than once. Every other survivor on the map can see that the hooked survivor wasn't giving the "camped" signal, and they can all see that as soon (or before) you were taken off the hook, the other survivor started getting hit and down'ed at the same location. They should, therefore, know the area is being camped and complete objectives instead of running headlong into the same trap.

I've even had 0-kill games turn into 4k games because the last remaining three generators were all closely placed to each other, making patrolling them and downing survivors much easier. Was that because of my awesome game play? Absolutely not. It was because the survivors failed to notice they were completing generators entirely on a single side of the map, and leaving those three for last. If they had completed even one of the three-gen trifecta, I wouldn't have gotten a single kill. Again, they made mistakes that gave me an advantage.

These are simple tactics and understanding of game mechanics. They're also things you should be thinking about and considering while playing. Trying to figure out what perks the killer is running is fundamental to being a good survivor. Does the killer, who hooks a player across the map, know you're working on a particular generator and run straight for you? He's running BBQ and Chili. Counter this by running in one direction when your ally is being hooked, and stealth back after 4 seconds. Does the killer run for you while you're healing out of view? He's running Nurse's Calling: don't heal inside their terror radius. Are you facing a Myers who doesn't stalk his way out of tier 1? He can see you through walls, so don't bother hiding, but utilize line-of-sight to see him coming. He's slow and has almost no lunge range. Facing a nurse? Don't bother with the usual survivor tactics of jumping through windows and dropping pallets, instead, break line-of-sight, double back on yourself, and use her fatigue against her to make her lose you. The nurse can only hit you if she can correctly predict your next move, so be unpredictable. Keep getting one-hit down at the end of the match? Bring a map and make a point to break dull totems as often as possible to deprive the killer of NOED.

What's more, certain killers are almost sure to be running NOED: Wraith, Hag, Trapper and Freddy come to mind immediately. They aren't particularly strong in the start of the match, and must rely on that advantage at the end of the match to have much of a chance.

The game is all about adapting to each killer in each round. If you want to run a simple and straight-forward way to defeat every killer every round, you're out of luck. They're each going to use unique abilities and perks to search for the advantage, but the only way they're successful in doing so is because you fail to adapt your own game play to that round. And remember, progressing is as simple as doing 1 generator, 1 safe hook save, and surviving for 9 minutes. Anything you do on top of that is gravy. You might not get out alive doing that, but you can join a new match while the killer is stuck in their current match to the conclusion. What's more, you have an insta-queue, where the killers have to wait around 15 minutes between matches.

It's also about knowing the maps, and knowing which places are good for looping and which are bad. In The Game? Right next to the washroom is a double pallet loop, big enough that the killer doesn't have the time to mind game you around that huge block. Play both pallets and, at the least, you've survived an additional 30 seconds to a minute, and given yourself the chance to run to the next loop before they can hit you. On the farm? Every 20 meters is another window and pallet loop which can be utilized for a minute or two before running off to the next, if you don't lose the killer in the corn in the meantime.

You should be running perks based on your weaknesses. Are you being caught early every match? Run Urban Evasion and stealth around until the killer finds someone else first. Have trouble finding pallets and windows? Run Windows of Opportunity to make this so much easier. Getting slugged? Run Unbreakable. Having trouble locating the killer? Run Alert or better yet, Bond. If you see another survivor running and throwing pallets, you know where the killer is and if you're safe where you are.

Meanwhile, remember that the killer must find, chase, and down four survivors three different times each to kill everyone. Most of the time, this isn't the case, and they must satisfy themselves with a 2-kill match, all while saying, "Oh, it's the running in circles game. How fun." I'm a good killer, and though I'm far from the best, I choose my perks and add-on's very carefully to give me the most possible advantage, and still I see my fair share of 0-kill or 1-kill games. Not because I'm bad, but because no matter what, I'm at the disadvantage. The only time I'm at the advantage is when survivors make mistakes.

You started out dismissing what the professionals say about the game balance, but fail to address why they make that claim. So why do the professionals say the game is balanced in the survivor's favor? Because every encounter between survivor and killer is dictated by the survivor. Where you start the chase, where it goes, what else is happening during the chase... all of it is determined by the survivors, not the killers. The killers are on defense the entire match, trying to protect seven different objects from four different players, in a race against time when time is not in the killer's favor.

Look at the time it takes to complete a generator, versus the time it takes to find, chase, down and hook a survivor. A single gen can be completed by a single survivor in less time than a moderately skilled survivor can loop a killer. That's a fact. And with three other survivors all doing gen's, there's no reason not to win every match. What counters do the killers have to this time advantage the survivors have? Ruin is the most common, but good survivors know the totem locations and can track down Ruin quickly every match, or just work through it by hitting a majority of great skill checks. Other than that? Dying Light requires finding a particular survivor, chasing them several times, and finally killing them before it ever has a chance to take effect. The only time I've had dying light work effectively is playing Freddy, and burning an add-on to force the obsession into the dream world from the start, and using a Mori on them after they've been rescued from the hook. In the meantime, a minimum three generators are always completed. Remember Me is fairly strong, but again, only if you locate and punish the obsession. And, even then, it only delays opening the doors briefly, and with two doors on the map, it's impossible to patrol both fast enough to stop them opening.

Take a look at Monto's YouTube page. He does a lot of "gimmick" builds which allow him to do 4-kill games, but he's only able to do those because he burns a LOT of bloodpoints to get those add-on's and offerings. Peak-a-Boo Myers, Snipper Doc, Impossible Skill Checks... these are all gimmick builds that can be done once in a while, but he isn't showing you all the games he had to play in the meantime to make those videos. Yes, some very skilled players do the "random perk wheel" and still manage to get 4-kill games, but there you're talking about guys who have thousands and thousands of hours of play time and a whole lot of skill compared to the people they're facing. These aren't the killers you're facing.

Take a look at TydeTyme's page: he has almost 2,000 hours of play time, and recently published a survivor's guide you may find very useful.

I hope I've been clear without sounding like I'm talking down to you here, which wasn't my intention. I'm trying to provide tips for becoming a better survivor, and better understanding and utilizing all the advantages you have, while minimizing any weakness you may have.

GG

c_firavel said:

By saying that I didn't care what streamers /devs say, I meant that no matter what they say about balancing I will disagree. I only have 1 person that I play with regularly and we work well together. But the majority of the time I play is with randoms. I save/heal, work on gens, and I'm pretty decent at evading killers. I've had far too many games where the killer did camp my body and yes the others could have continued on, but instead they all sat still. I can't make good players play with me every game. 

I appreciate the advice but others in this thread are acting  like elitists and automatically assume that I lack skill. I admit there is much I need to learn to do better, but so many toxic people are so quick to try and offend someone. I am aware that killers need an edge over the survivors, but i feel like it should be tweaked a little. I have used every item and add on save for some  the ultra rare variety.  I have tried to adapt but it seems like struggling when nabbed doesn't affect the killer ar times, although I am aware of the perks that lessen the effects of things that survivors do. 

My point is simply this: killers shouldn't be able to resist/stop everything everytime in every situation, although it seems several (nearly every time I play a match) killers I've gone up against that they have all the answers. 

Another bullet I've learned to dodge or at least try to, is the latency between me and the host. It would be nice to have dedicated servers, although I know that costs resources that may not be available for the devs. I can't tell you how many times I cleared a vault and was several feet away and the killer still hit me whilst on the other side of the obstacle.  Or The Huntress's throwable hatchets zipped by me on my screen but the game registered a hit on me. 

Thanks for the help.

c_firavel said:

By saying that I didn't care what streamers /devs say, I meant that no matter what they say about balancing I will disagree. I only have 1 person that I play with regularly and we work well together. But the majority of the time I play is with randoms. I save/heal, work on gens, and I'm pretty decent at evading killers. I've had far too many games where the killer did camp my body and yes the others could have continued on, but instead they all sat still. I can't make good players play with me every game. 

I appreciate the advice but others in this thread are acting  like elitists and automatically assume that I lack skill. I admit there is much I need to learn to do better, but so many toxic people are so quick to try and offend someone. I am aware that killers need an edge over the survivors, but i feel like it should be tweaked a little. I have used every item and add on save for some  the ultra rare variety.  I have tried to adapt but it seems like struggling when nabbed doesn't affect the killer ar times, although I am aware of the perks that lessen the effects of things that survivors do. 

My point is simply this: killers shouldn't be able to resist/stop everything everytime in every situation, although it seems several (nearly every time I play a match) killers I've gone up against that they have all the answers. 

Another bullet I've learned to dodge or at least try to, is the latency between me and the host. It would be nice to have dedicated servers, although I know that costs resources that may not be available for the devs. I can't tell you how many times I cleared a vault and was several feet away and the killer still hit me whilst on the other side of the obstacle.  Or The Huntress's throwable hatchets zipped by me on my screen but the game registered a hit on me. 

Thanks for the help.

Dabrownman1812 said:

c_firavel said:

Just because I disagree doesn't necessarily make me close minded. This is why I usually steer clear of forums because of holier than thou elitist players that always default to saying people aren't good. Reply to this all you want but this is my last interaction here. You offer "help" but still insult without meaning to. Then you tell me im close minded simply because I disagree with what you think about the game. The game Is simple: as a killer,  sacrifice.  As survivors, escape. There is no other "win." Do YOU survive every time? WHEN you don't, do you smile and tell yourself "oh they were just better than me"? I seriously doubt it. I never said I was pro or anywhere near it. I have a life and other things I do so I don't sit on this game all day/night.  It's sad when one voices their opinion and people feel the need to purposely or "inadvertently " insult someone. Have fun feeling "superior" on a game that was meant to be entertainment and not a pissing contest.

You seem to misunderstand, there is nothing wrong with disagreeing. The fact you said you will always disagree, always is ignorant. It means no matter what information is brought in, you will disagree. People are allowed to think differently, but preemptively saying you'll always disagree is close minded. Once again you're not close minded for disagreeing, you're close minded for saying you will always disagree because that isn't taking into account new information. Nice attempt to flip it though. 

GodDamn_Angela said:

@c_firavel said:
I'm not a noob. I've played on both sides. Time amounts to nothing if the killer can one shot you or find you without scratch marks on the ground and also not injured. I don't care what the devs or streamers say, but the odds are heavily stacked against the survivors.

Still sounds like trolling to me.