Decisive Strike + Unbreakable fix.
I get that DS is meant to function as a deturrent for the killer to focus a single survivor and take him out of the game fast. That being said, the actual design of DS is one that works by itself on paper, but proves to be rather problematic and unhealthy when combo'd with Unbreakable. It is unfair for the survivor to be downed again by the killer right after getting unhooked, that being said it's also unfair for the killer to get instantly punished by lackluster teamwork by the survivors since they are the one that unhooked said survivor while the killer being around. Decisive Strike works in a way that, if downed, the killer can slow down the game but can't gain momentum off the downed survivor by hooking him since the survivor can escape. That's why, when the survivor's teammates commit the mistake of unhooking a survivorm in front of a killer, there should be still be a punish (AKA losing 60 + seconds down doing nothing unless a teammate picks you up), but there is none because the survivor can just Unbreakable their way out of being downed in a short time. This can feel really bad since the killer will lose momentum despite the fact the survivors made a mistake. And this situation doesn't even take into account Borrowed time, which makes things even more complicated fot the killer. Let's also have in mind the sheer power that DS has just by existing in the game. DS works as a deterrant even if the survivor doesn't have it as a perk. This makes it so the killer (ideally) has to be always careful for that single perk, which is something I kinda get, since tunneling can also be an unhealthy playstyle.
My suggestion with this is pretty simple: Give the perk the downside of slowing recovering (when downed) and self heal time by a decent bunch while DS is active (right after getting unhooked). Will not provide numbers since that's something it could very well vary, but I think this idea will keep each perk (DS and unbreakable) core power while cutting out the (way too good) synergy this 2 perks have together. We need to have in mind that Unbreakable has a much better synergy with DS than with Tenacity, a perk that is quite literally made for it. With this change, killers will still look out for DS even if the survivor doesn't have it, but the survivors won't profit that much from poor teamplay or misstimed unhooks.
What do you guys think? I think this topic is done to death, I know, but these 2 perks together, as it is right now, are too strong. But I'm willing to hear feedback on this.
PS: You could remove the downside of slow self-healing, but the idea behind it is to keep the survivor.
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The PS is messed up since I lost my train of thought xD. The idea is to keep the survivor injured for a while longer basically.
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Its still a survivor not doing anything while you keep another survivor from doing gens.
Because you choose to not pick them up they now have to burn another perk or have another survivor stop what they are doing and do it.
This is to your benefit if you play it right. Slugging is better than a hook ever since they change hook timers.
Slug the DS and go after the rescuer.
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I think that would be a nice fix, but I equally think that that would bring some unwanted side effects, not related to preventing DS/Unbreakable.
Ultimately, there's no way to nerf the synergy without removing the functionality of either perk or seriously chipping away at things unrelated to the free heal. Whereas for ruin/undying, there was a lot of breathing room since undying was vast and somewhat duplicable, DS and unbreakable are both relatively simple.
I'm a killer main so I don't like this combo one bit. But ultimately, its reputation is far worse than it actually is. More often than not, I am either in a position where I can get DS out of the way, or I can just ignore them to pressure another survivor. It's not like its completely uncounterable; it opens up another window of gameplay that we have to adapt to. Of course, it's not optimal, but whoever said gameplay has to be that way? I use prayer beads spirit with surveillance/ruin, and you wouldn't believe the noxious hellscape that is the post-game chat. There's synergy and its nigh uncounterable (remaining on the gen and gambling that it isn't you doesn't count as a counter, that's praying to RNGesus) until you cleanse ruin (similarly to using the unbreakable token). If you're good enough, you can time your patrol right so that you can catch the guy right after they pop their unbreakable, although I haven't yet honed this skill.
In short, DS/Unbreakable probably should receive a nerf to one of its components, yes, but it's not game breaking and it's not uncounterable. Plenty of good killers, myself not included, will be able to play around it, either by brute force or through subterfuge.
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I disagree that it is problematic to bring it with Unbreakable, when you are not even considering how both of these perks counter abusive tactics within the game that remain as built in mechanics. Where the killer doesn't have to worry about any type of downside, unlike those perks where a timer is involved and you may not even end up using it.
Like if you fixed, Camping, Tunneling and Slugging I'd be all for a change, until then though, DS + UB are fine as they are.
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It’s like under 20 seconds of them being slugged if they use unbreakable. And depending on when it’s used it’s typically a game changer.
I’ve probably lost count of the number of times I have 2-3 survivors slugged, and am chasing the last one, and then an unbreakable resets the whole game. It’s even more annoying if it came from someone who just got off the hook and had DS as well.
It might not be a big deal if you are playing a strong killer. But for weaker ones; where every down is a battle, it can be crippling.
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Maybe you should hook one of them next time. Who's the one who didn't take Unbreakabill into account?
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It would not matter at all in those situations?
Here’s a game I played today. I have a guy in the basement, am patrolling nearby gens / proxy camping it because it’s a 3 stack SWF with full items so I’m not in the business of giving them any second chances.
Guy hook bombs the basement. Down them both through BT because I’m Bubba. Hook the savior, leave the other guy slugged. Move off to an infectious proc. Down him, get another proc, and now I’m chasing the last survivor.
Unhooked guy unbreakables and game is completely reset. No counters to that. If I had been playing wraith or something that probably would have lost me the game.
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Oh and I guess the other options would have been, eat the DS and lose all my pressure.
Or “take the unbreakable into account”, stand at the top of the basement stairs, and let the other survivors finish the generators for free and lose the game with a 2k depip.
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The option would be to continue what you were doing previously. Since it was a SWF and you a Bubba. The logical thing would of been to wait out the DS while staying near the basement.
If it was a SWF I doubt they would of left them if you stayed near the basement and not in it.
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You know what else is unfair? Getting camped and tunneled. Stop camping/tunneling and DS wont be used as often. Simple as that.
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That would have been a game losing move. I only had the luxury to proxy camp the basement because I got the hook somewhat early. It was also a bad basement out in a corner by itself with no generators that close by, no 3 gen to speak of.
A trade would have lost me the game at that point since it was disturbed ward, they had 2 BNPs, and the first gen got done in around ~40 seconds. They would have finished the last 2 gens by the time I waited around for a DS unbreakable and after the guy unhooks from his unbreakable; there was no guarantee there would not be a second DS unbreakable.
I’m at red ranks so a 2k is usually a depip; especially if the gens were getting slammed and you are playing a 1 shot killer.
The fact most killers have to sit around waiting for arbitrary invincibility timers in a game where the gens can be done in 4 minutes is one of the reasons I play Pyramid Head so much.
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Oh please. Like the perk needs to be 60 ######### seconds. That has nothing to do with camping or tunneling. Neither does using it as locker bait
Good perk, bad design. Drop it to 25-30s seconds and it's anti-tunneling. Remove the use in end-gate area and locker abuse.
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Give negative points for unhooking a survivor (without borrowed time) when the killer is super close.
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The devs have stated its design is not first and foremost anti-tunneling. Its an offensive perk.
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It is not an offensive perk. I'd like you to show me where it's been labeled as such. And even if so, it's still TERRIBLE game design the way it currently is.
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why not just solve the whole issue by disabling DS when you work on a generator for more than 3 seconds?
The issue with DS and it with unbreakable is simply survivors going to a gen off hook for free progress on it or to finish it. If they got rid of the safety net DS provides when doing so it would just make the perk for recovering and stopping tunneling. Sure with UB you can still try to be aggressive but that is way less of an issue then free progress on gens and honestly you should be going after other survivors anyways than unhooked ones.
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Just do what Scott Jung suggested. DS lasts 30 second, but while in chase, timer does not go down, ever.
DS deactivates as soon as survivor touches generator or tries to progress the game in any other way (unhook, heal ect.). This way it would be true anti tunnel perk. Killer tunnels you? Good you can ds him even 5 minutes latter if he chased for that long, but if he doesn't tunnel he cannot be stabbed.
There is nothing more gae than using ds in offensive way...
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