The Hex Undying Changes are Misleading
In the recent Dev Update, we were presented with many changes including to the all so popular perk, Hex Undying. In it, the Devs listed out their issues with Hex Undying and what they felt are needed changes.
Lets start by reading the issues outlined by the Devs:
1. Transferring the same Hex multiple times can get out of hand: Hexes are meant to be strong perks that can be destroyed, and having to destroy the same Hex four times can be a bit much.
2. Since tokens aren’t transferred when a Hex changes totems, Undying was unpopular with perks other than Ruin (which does not have any tokens and is immediately at full power).
3. Having aura reading on all totems also made it a very powerful tracking perk on top of its other effects, and is a little redundant with Hex: Thrill of the Hunt.
Now lets read how they plan on solving these issues. Solutions seem to be in order to address the issues above:
1. Any time a Hex totem is cleansed, it will replace the Hex: Undying totem. Hex: Undying is then deactivated. This ensures that the first totem cleansed is never your other Hex perk.
2. Any tokens you’ve already accumulated are now kept when the Hex perk transfers totems. This way you’re not starting from scratch part way through a match.
3. Aura reading only applies to dull totems.
So solutions 1 and 2 are presented in a way to say, yes we are making the perk weaker but we are also making it stronger in another way. You know, compromise. Both sides being equally happy or upset.
🤔
Did you catch it?
🤨
Solution 2 never happens.
😱
Yes, if the first Hex perk cleansed will always be Hex Undying, then how do tokens transfer for Hex Devour Hope when its cleansed?
You could say the survivor really cleansed the Hex Devour Hope first and it transferred. But isn't that the same thing as saying they really cleansed Hex Undying? Smoke and Mirrors. Not like you could tell the difference in game.
So, in the end of the day Hex Undying is weakened with no upsides when compared to its previous state. The real loss is the aura reading, imo. It was just easier to changes a controversial perk than find a better power for an unpopular one.
Agree or agree to disagree, these are the changes coming for the perk. I just don't like the intentional or unintentional way it was presented.
Cheers
Comments
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I'm hoping it means that you can still accumulate tokens, that definitely seems to be what they're implying.
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Of course you can. Just like the survivor never cleansed it.
In the end, it was Hex Undying that got cleansed. 😉
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I think you're dissecting the exact wording too much. The first hex cleansed will always be the undying. You retain and can continue to accumulate tokens for your other hexes unless those are cleansed.
I think mechanically what is implied is if someone cleanses e.g. devour hope totem then the hexes are swapped and devour hope moves to wherever the undying was. Not that this is visible to the players which totem is which hex.
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Heres a better way to describe it, when a hex totem is cleansed, you lose a random hex perk. Undying acts as a buffer here, it will throw itself in the way and take the hit for other hex perks
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In a way they're saying all hexes are Undying until one is cleansed while your other hex is doing it's thing in the background.
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Dude what are you on about not making sense
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Undying got nerfed into the ground, nobody is denying that
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Given how Haunted Ground works, it is more likely that hex perks are assigned a location at match launch instead of randomly determined when one is cleansed. Which means that devs would insert a simple IF statements to swap the undying hex totem with the one that was cleansed before triggering deactivation of the hex location that was cleansed.
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exactly.
In fact, I suppose Undying + Haunted will still work this way:
1- if you cleanse Undying first... well, nothing happens
2- if you cleanse Haunted Ground first, survivors get exposed, the other Haunted Ground totem stays lit, and Undying becomes the first Haunted Ground totem
in other words, yes, Undying works as a buffer, but it's not a placeholder until a hex is cleansed.
If this is not the case, meaning that whatever happens the first totem cleansed is always Undying, this would actually be a shadow nerf (exactly because of the Haunted Ground combo) on top of the real nerf.
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Easiest way I can describe this:
You bring Devour Hope, and Undying; Devour Hope is Totem A and Undying is Totem B, this is the way the CODE SAYS SO TO MAKE IT WORK.
With these changes;
If Totem A is cleansed FIRST, Devour Hope becomes transferred to Totem B and keeps its stacks. Devour Hope now takes the place of Totem B inside the code to make it work as a hex perk.
But if Totem B is cleansed first, it will deactivate Undying, as the code now says that the "transfer" is complete, and the perk retains its stacks.
Probably not the exact way it is wrote into the code, but the easiest way I could describe the process in words.
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I guess the undying nerf gives a reason to runHaunted Ground with whatever other hex you want like ruin or Devour.
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It's not described the best but, basically:
- You have Devours. You have Undying.
- You have 3 stacks of devours right now.
- They cleanse your devours, undying takes the fall instead. Your devours is now moved to where undying USED to be.
- You keep your stacks when it transfers to that other totem.
So all wording is technically correct but yeah, not the clearest. "Solution 2" as you call it does still happen.
Also because it doesn't jump to a random dull totem, odds are survivors will already know where it is. No aura reading, so quite often I can see you losing both perks within seconds of each other.
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I don’t think Undying has its own Totem, I think the way it will function is if you’re running Hex Devour, there will be one Hex Totem lit in the game, when cleansed Undying will take the fall and transfer the Hex Totem to a dull totem
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I have Devour Hope with 5 tokens and Undying. Someone cleanses DH. The totem disappears. The Undying totem is now a Devour Hope totem with 5 tokens, and the Undying perk shuts off.
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for once, I actually agree with almo on something. this is very simple to understand. this legit how the perk will function, it's fairly easy to understand
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If you have more than 1 totem will the first one destroyed just swap to Undying and that's it?
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Why not keep the aura reading on lit totems at least though? I mean breaking 2 totems to remove 2 perks entirely is not that bad.
Giving the killer some ability to at least defend ONE totem ONE time before they are gone seems fair- I mean after first totem is cleansed that ability is gone entirely anyways. It's not like it will be around long enough to be game breaking; and the overwhelming part of undying was removed- so why remove any and all defense of it as well?
Also, could the aura read be swapped with thrills notification? I mean; this would be better for suited for that one totem defense chance undying could give; while legit buffing thrill of the hunt a perk that could honestly use it.
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I think the more important thing is: how will this interact with haunted grounds? HG requires totems to work, undying only saves ONE.
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- It's still technically cleansed. So it would activate.
- It would then move to where the undying totem was at.
- Undying would deactivate.
- The one haunted grounds would remain active, but the effect took place so the other would become dull.
It will work just as you assume, yes.
Edit, I fixed this sorry.
Post edited by [Deleted User] on1 -
I think you didnt understand the point of the devs.
New Undying makes It so that if you have 3 stacks Devour of Hope + Undying, whenever they cleanse any of the totems you'll keep Devour with 3 tokens.
It makes It so that you will always have to cleanse the "strong" hex twice while keeping the stacks.
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We kept aura reading so that it does SOMETHING when you use it alone.
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Except as soon as one totem is cleansed that is gone; and it still would have done something when used alone; albeit there isn't really a ton of reasons to do that either way it's meant to be a synergy totem- it seems odd to hurt it's primary purpose for the less than ideal one.
Also, given again that as soon as one totem is cleansed that effect is gone entirely, even having it as it is wouldn't really be that bad. Especially in the situation of that thrill of the hunt bit I mentioned. That would honestly make both perks functionally and thematically more fitting.
Edit: I get that it's meant to be nerfed and I am 110% on board with that; however given that cleansing 2 totems is all that is required to remove half of the killer's perks in that game, so having one chance to defend their totems before all of that and half their perks are just gone- seems like a fairly reasonable request while still greatly nerfing it's actual problem area.
If taken further with what I said about thrill; it would keep it even more manageable and less overbearing while giving thrill of the hunt better synergy and use when used alone which it could use more than undying needs.
I just want this to at least be considered is all.
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The aura reading on dull totems is pointless. It should be only on the hex totems that way the killer can opt to protect them. Why would he care about dull totems? Survivors could use this as a distraction so others could fix gens.
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So if I have Haunted and Undying. If survivor clean Haunted, is Expose effect activated then Undying get in place to die for Haunted.
Or Undying just die for Haunted without Expose effect?
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To be fair; it can be pretty nice especially when a totem is near a gen or something else. Currently with undying; it's not uncommon to just randomly get useful aura reads by people passing by totems haphazardly.
However given a survivor can now just cleanse one of 2 lit totems on the map and delete it, and the perk from the game basically entirely in 14 seconds without any threat really of the killer- I agree it seems a bit unnecessary to nerf it's only defense as well. Keeping ruin up for like 30 extra seconds or such, and aura reading dull totems for a tiny bit at the start of the game is not really worth an entire perk slot.
It might be okay on devours; but outside of that I don't see it being used much. It won't even work with noed really since it will be lit all game so odds are it will never make it to end game at which point it's just a perk slot wasted as noed would have done what it did just the same anyways.
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@Almo ik its a bit rude to ping a dev, but all of us are interested in how itll work with haunted grounds? Will it restart haunted grounds and dim the other totem but then light one? Will undying be a solo HG? Or will haunted grounds override the perk?
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I think it would work as I mentioned above, at least given what they told us so far. I could be wrong though so an official word on it sure wouldn't hurt.
That is how it should technically go if just going by the phrasing of everything; but maybe they planned on some exception for the perk or something.
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You could say the survivor really cleansed the Hex Devour Hope first and it transferred. But isn't that the same thing as saying they really cleansed Hex Undying? Smoke and Mirrors. Not like you could tell the difference in game.
Like I said, Smoke and mirrors.
The only chance of it not being smoke and mirrors is if the first Hex happens to be Haunted Grounds and Haunted Grounds activates. Which in my opinion, will not happen.
Why? Because Haunted Grounds is two totems. If Hex Undying takes the hit from breaking Haunted Grounds. Then Haunted Grounds can activate twice in one match. I don't believe that would be the direction the Devs would want to take.
edit: another note, When Haunted Grounds is broken the other Hex totem is deactivated. If Undying takes its place then one of three things would happen.
- Haunted Grounds activates, second Hex totem disappears, Undying and Haunted switch spots. Either a new second totem appears or Haunted remains a solo Hex totem.
- Haunted Grounds activates, second Hex does not disappear, Undying and Haunted switch spots.
- Haunted Grounds does not activate, Undying switches spots with Haunted.
My money is on option 3.
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Thrill of the Hunt already gives a way to protect hex totems (albeit a notification, not an aura).
Aura readings for dull totems is not useless. If I run across a dull totem, I cleanse it for BP + incase of NOED. And as a killer main constantly bothered by totems in high-traffic areas, I can appreciate the aura help.
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In code you may very well be correct. (Which may cause unintended behavior with future or existing Hex perks ) The point I'm trying to get across is that it doesn't matter if all Hex totems are Undying or Undying swaps places with another when cleansed. The outcome is the same.
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If you use an hex perk and undying, then it's essentially two hex totems for your hex perk.
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Yes that is clear. The issue is how the changes were portrayed as if there was a tradeoff from losing multiple Hex reappearance.
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What're you on about? Are you holding up the times that Undying is cleansed first in the current meta and pretending that that's what happens every time someone cleanses a totem right now? Because that's not true or Ruin/Undying wouldn't be so oppressive.
New Undying duplicates a totem. Run Undying/Devour Hope and you basically have 2 perk slots dedicated to Devour Hope, and 2 Devour Hope totems that the survivors have to cleanse, but also you have random aura reading on dull totems. That is the purpose of new Undying: Duplicating a single totem.
And if you only run Undying then that's 4 potential loops that have wallhacks. Or, you know, none, but I feel like most of us have felt the power trip of Undying totems in loops.
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I find the whole Ruin/Undying to be silly at best and no I don't play with either of them. Ruin is shell of it's former self and current Undying can stand on it's own as an aura reading perk. The fact that survivors are even bothering cleansing Ruin shocks me.
I digress, the post isn't about how the perk is now to the way it will be or whether or not it should be changed. Its about the way it was portrayed as a compromised change.
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First off, Ruin is now objectively stronger than before the nerf - the only reason it was a nerf is because it didn't last long enough to effective, which is what Undying fixes by making it, often literally, uncleansable. Second, if you see no value in the new Undying then you are squinting so hard it's distorting your vision. IT KEEPS TOKENS. That is something I'm willing to bet is going to get reverted.
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Ruin is nothing.
Gen time without Ruin: 80s
Gen time with Ruin: 80s
I find it hard to believe that survivors run around like headless chickens while the killer is in a chase with another survivor. But you know what solo queue be like that sometimes.
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Well idk if these changes are even implemented yet or not, but I just played 4 Red Rank games a Killer:
I ran Undying, Ruin, & Haunted Ground.
EVERY SINGLE MATCH They Totems were cleansed in the following order:
1st Undying
2nd Ruin
3rd (if they still kept cleansing at all) Haunted Ground.
This may have been purely a coincidence, but if it wasn't, I have serious concerns about Haunted Ground and how it works with this 3 Perk Combo, because Haunted Ground being cleansed LAST/FINAL consistently no matter what after Ruin/Undying would really actually end up being quite problematic.. basically Survivors would just know to never cleanse anything after Ruin (honestly they still should know that) but that's kind of the point that I'm trying to make is that it shouldn't always be the case..
Haunted Ground SHOULD have a chance to be the first totem cleansed. Undying SHOULD NOT proc for Haunted Ground. This is a very important distinction that I believe should absolutely be made in the Code.
That being said, if you take away Aura of Hex Totems with Undying (which is kind of lame) then I do think you should at least ADD Aura Reading to Hex: Thrill of the Hunt - which is otherwise a fairly useless perk, I've tried using Thrill of the Hunt on multiple occasions and the noise notification it is "supposed" to deliver is not very consistent .. I can tell you with absolute certainty from having done tests that you DO NOT get a noise notification "Every" time a Survivor begins to cleanse a totem. It does happen, but it is not 100% consistently, which can really throw you off if you are relying on the perk to actually work for your game plan.
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I just wrote a comment and then noticed a small spelling typo so I went to "Edit" and fixed it, when I hit save my comment disappeared, is that normal?
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Im fine with this change but you also got ride of the aura reading on hexs which makes it so the aura reading aspect of the perk is nearly useless since it won't help you defend your hexs and it will only activate in 3 spots in the whole map. Because of this the aura reading doesn't belong on this hex anymore, if anything you guys should switch TOTH totem counter/slowdown and undying's aura reading but have it apply to hexs as well but with a lower duration.
That would buff both TOTH and the upcoming undying but not in a way that makes them as strong as they were before. those effects also just fits the one another well and with the aura length adjusted it wont be impossible to cleanse totems when TOTH is used to defend them.
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So that means we should get rid of the second change since it apparently never happens, yes?
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Will this happen to other perks that also do nothing alone? like Hex: Retribution that does nothing unless a survivor interact with a toten and they have no reason to cleanse any of them
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The undying change is really good, nothing to say, my greetings👏👏👏 (seriously)
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As survivor just going around the entire map just to see whether ruin respawned 4 freaking times is so depressing, geez
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Can you not read?
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Solution two means your other hex's totem if it got replaced instead of destroyed keeps it's tokens
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I like how I was skeptical back then it would ruin the perk, but honestly it's made it a fair and still useful perk. I was wrong.
I mean, it skirts the line somewhat with reliability, but it's still decent.
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Honestly, does anyone still use Undying?
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