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Can someone explain why people are against DS changes?
I get that just nerfing it would make people anrgy.
But there are many change ideas that also buff it in other ways.
Like I read a post of DS being changed into a true anti tunneling perk.
Nerf:
20/25/30 seconds
disables when touching gen/gate/totem.
Buff:
Two time use
when downed while the timer is still going add extra time 20/25/30 seconds.
It would be a huge benefit for survivors that go against super tunnelers when you could use DS two times against them.
But also killers would given time to breathe again when its not that abusable anymore.
So what speaks against a change without touching the general value of the perk that much?
The game would become a bit healthier with a change like this.
Comments
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It's been nerfed.
Proclaimed dead by the community (even though some reconized the potential)
and finally back in the lime light.
The moving of goal post with this perk is astounding. The perk is fair. That's all we wanted to begin with with the original nerf. It no longer denies a hook and no longer punishes a killer for downing a survivor. If you can't keep track of 60s, thats on you.
Hell, I've heard killer mains say it should be basekit. I'm not going that far but it just shows how much the perk has changed since release in 2016.
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When it comes to discussing changes to the perk that sort of idea seems to be the most favored one to me. Sure there's some that don't want it changed at all (or even buffed), just like there's some that would only truly be content with the complete removal of the perk. But it feels like most people would go for some sort of anti-tunneling specialization change if they had to change it and got to decide exactly how it gets changed.
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the main reason people want DS nerfed is because of the combo with Unbreakable, putting the 2 together gives you a full minute of immunity from everything including Slugging
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I believe the main reason is they don't want the survivor getting away. As long as DS can release the survivor from the killers back, killers are going to hate it.
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its not that people are against it, they just demand the entire game goes down with it.
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Because most of the changes that are suggested are awful changes and would make the perk awful. Don't get me wrong, as killer it's an extremely annoying when you get hit by DS when you didn't tunnel them but just because something is really annoying doesn't mean it needs a nerf.
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It wasnt nerfed, it was buffed. At least before you could dribble the survivor or use Enduring. Hell the stun timer was increased to 5 seconds simply because of Enduring. Now if you pair this up with Unbreakable, after an unhook that survivor is invincible for a minute and this can be said for all 4 survivors, making it EXTEMELY difficult to get pressure and start snowballing.
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That's funny because I'm pretty sure multiple killer things have been nerfed out of annoyance and not effectiveness. Best example? Legion.
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I think this change is not good at all, because if I have gate at 99 i cant touch it and the killer can wait for the timer to end so he can pick me up and hook again, or if I have a gen almost done he will also wait or hit me after I toched the gen so I lost my ds
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cause 60-second shield is so fun for them to abuse :)
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Well at the end of the day games are usually played for enjoyment, so if something is consistently flagged as annoying it does suggest some changes or "nerfs" might be worth considering.
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My problem with it is that the survivors weaponzie it. They know they have DS so they try to get the killers attention and then jump in a locker, they sit on a gen or totem knowing that if the killer grabs them they are free.
Add UB to the mix and its even worse. I had an instance where: hooker a survivor, another survivor unhooks directly in front of me. I go to chase the unhooker, the survivor fresh off the hook precedes to body block me. The unhooker gets away as I am trying not to hit the unhooked survivor to avoid bt. At this point I hit her. Sure enough BT then when I am about to get her she jumps into a locker. I have no choice but to leave her or eat the DS.
I'm not saying it was a bad play on her part what made me annoyed is she used it as a weapon instead of anti tunnel. Thats why DS needs a change.
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Well which legion nerf are we talking about? If your talking about the one where Frank's mixtape was OP then that wasn't because of annoyance, that was because it made Legion incredibly busted. No matter how many pallets and vaults you found he would still down you quickly because of Legions fast movement speed and the ability to vault pallets and windows quickly.
Basically what I'm trying to say is that just because something is annoying doesn't mean that it doesn't need a nerf. I just don't see a solid reason as to why D-strike needs a nerf.
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Survivor mains don't want to lose the 60 seconds of immunity and never play killer. Although the first change you said above sounds great
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When was it ever not in the limelight? It was nerfed and still heavily used. That's not a moving of the goalpost. That's people proclaiming that the perk still isn't fair.
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If DS+UB was truly balanced do you have any idea how many survivor mains would suddenly suck?
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The main reason is just that most nerf suggestions are just awful
Timer decreases at twice the speed when not in a chase: killer can follow you without triggering the chase or just run into you shortly after and boom your down and hooked.
timer decreases at twice speed when doing interactions: doesn't nerf it enough, survivors can and still will do gens off hook and if they do it with another survivor they don't lose that much time. However out of all the bad suggestions this is the best but there are better ones.
more uses/decrease timer: i don't see how that would be good as the only reason DS works is due to it's long timer, plenty of people would wait it out if it was under a minute. As for more uses that is just a buff and it combined with a shorter duration is a overall nerf but not a good one since it buffs tunneling because again you could wait it out.
disable it when healed: killers will let you heal then go down you, this also makes running perks like we'll make it worse since it risks the unhooked getting tunneled.
disable it when another is hooked: this is awful and i don't understand why people think it would be good, do you know how easy it would be to play around this? Just think about the situations where it would get disabled there are way too many that result in you getting hooked again without a chance to recover.
their really is only two good buffs that i have seen and i have mentioned it a lot is disabling the perk if you work on a gen for a total of 3 seconds. That solves it's problem of players using it to do gens without getting punished which is what DS+UB is mainly used for but it doesn't reduce it's anti tunneling power which is a good thing since it really shouldn't get nerfed in that aspect except during end game. speaking of which The other one is simply decreasing the timer to 30 seconds once all the gens are completed so it can't be used to always get to the gates and escape, it can't be during EGC since survivors just 99% the gates.
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I suck anyway
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You are better than most survivors because you recognize that you suck. Instead of blaming the game or saying killer's are OP, you realize that you can improve.
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Legion was not out of annoyance, they were straight up unhealthy for the game.
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I want it nerfed but not that, I just want to remove the survivors total of 480 seconds of free gen time if you aren't tunneling them
so either it becomes disabled if you touch a gen/heal/get fully healed/do a totem (things you can't do when being tunneled)
or it becomes disabled on another survivor being hooked (as long as you aren't in the dying state)
that way if you don't tunnel you literally have nothing to worry about
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It was not buffed and anyone who thinks old DS was ok is being disingenuous.
Dribbling was the worst counter. A massive time sink and could be foild by a single body block.
If you think dribbling was fine then I don't want to hear about survivors jumping into lockers from you.
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Yeah, but that is wasting 2 perk slots for a minute of gameplay. Half of which you are laying on the ground.
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They (survivors) want a defense against tunneling, which is fair and no one would argue that.
The issue is the "weaponized" DS/Unbreakable combo, which gives you 60 secs of invulnerability. Jumping in lockers, staying on Gens, etc. Slugging is only partially effective.
The problem between these is not everyone weaponizes DS, they use it to stay in the game longer.
A huge problem with this community is the disparity between high rank games and the lower-ranked games. What some survivors may not see as a problem, becomes a huge issue at high ranks.
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60 seconds of complete immunity is not any more healthy for the game than the Ruin/Undying combo.
If you are injured an you touch a generator then you should lose DS, because doing so implies that you feel safe. You should feel the need to heal yourself, be healed, or be cautious of your positioning should the killer stumble upon you.
People who defend it just like the reap the benefits of something that's really not fair. DS does its job against bad killers with your average survivor, so people think it's fine. It's when you have skilled survivors using it, even against a skilled killer, that makes you realize how broken it is.
But you can't really expect people to understand this type of stuff that has been explained extensively and in videos by people far smarter, because the vast majority of the playerbase is, quite frankly, not very good at the game, so how can you expect them to understand? I think most people have never had to deal with the really bad feeling side of DS because they simply don't play killer or do not play it enough.
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I can't help but notice that both sides of the game do this, Killers what some survivor perks to be nerfed and Survivors want killers to be nerfed.
From my experience survivors are much more vocal about the changes they want. maybe not on here but trust me every team I play on complains about Killers being OP and wanting to nerf them into the ground. yet these are the same survivors that loop very well and toy with killers every chance they get. If they can't do it they get upset but when they can they're laughing their heads off
I think it's a no win situation at this point, what one person is going to like another is going to hate. I've been in some dev streams and every other comment is nerf this, change that.
I do agree though that the DS Unbreakable combo is too powerful. you pick them up they get away, you leave them down they get away.
It would be too hard to program but for situations like that it would be interesting if they had a conflict system. If you're using DS you can't use unbreakable ect.
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Hoping in a locker wastes time for the survivor as most of the time when a killer is in that situation they were actually tunneling. And the anti tunnel aspect of DS is fine, using it as a defensive tool as it was meant to I dont think any one has an issue. Its when people use the perk aggressively to go for hook saves, do gens in the killers face etc. when its active. It leaves the killer with literally no choice and it completely strips them of any pressure they gathered.
DS combined with Unbreakable has little to no counterplay
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They are not invincible when going for that hook save. You can down them at the feet of the hooked survivor. At that point, how can you say two survivors incapacitated is detrimental to you? Is camping not an option in this case? So what if they pop back up? Smack them back down again. By then DS timer will be expired.
Doing gens in the killers face. You know you can still hit them? Aim away and lunge back. You can avoid a grab this way.
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Quick question, should Old Ruin have been nerfed?
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This perk is nowhere near fair, and even people with less than 1000 hours have mountains of testimony to that fact.
A perk designed to prevent tunneling that you can still use after the Killer bails on you to go hit and hook two other people and then come back to you and STILL get stabbed in the damn eye for 5 seconds is not even close to any semblance of fair.
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I never liked the idea that ruin was needed from a balancing perspective. Personally I didn't use it but didn't fault others for doing so. I do not find the current ruin to be all that powerful and a waste of a perk slot.
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Why are we holding up players with less than 1000 hrs?
Get some perspective on what DS was before you call this version unfair.
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Current Decisive Strike fits all the reasons the Devs gave for nerfing Old Ruin.
1.) Overly punishes bad/new players.
2.) It's mere existence provides passive pressure on the Killer.
3.) It doesn't actually stop tunneling like its supposed to.
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Its almost like you weren't tunneld if you worked on a generator.
Killers shouldn't be punished for tunneling in end game, there's literally nothing else they can do besides rehooking when the survivors start trading hooks at the end
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Most survivors wont just rush a hook save if they know they're gonna get hit before saving, if they do then theyre just dumb. When they go for the save then the killer gets punished for it, because now he lost a hook and cant even compensate by picking up the just downed survivor, only option is to leave him slugged meaning he gets back up, and theres also 2 other survivors working on gens and possibly the 3rd one as well. Meaning no pressure gained on the killers end.
If some one with DS active is working on a gen and you leave them slugged guess what? You have to leave him knowing hes gonna get back up to just work on that gen again, and now the other 3 survivors are working on gens as well.
All these scenarios can be done up to 4 times, and again the killer can't do anything other than watch.
The fact that people still think DS was "nerfed" is beyond me. It has literally no counterplay now and it received an extra second of stun. How is that a nerf???
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I don't need to know what it was before. It doesn't MATTER. The perk should be judged by what it does NOW, in actual and present gameplay.
The current Decisive Strike is horrifically bogus and abusive.
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- DS doesn't target new players. If you constantly touch a hot stove thats on you.
- A lot of perks on both sides give passive pressure. Ruin wasn't one of them. Ruin gave active pressure. Passive pressure is when you behave in a way to avoid a potential. ie, You don't know if they have DS so you slug. You don't know if they have BBQ so you hide behind a gen or in a locker.
- Stop tunneling is a community derived reason. The reason it was changed was because it was profoundly unfair perk.
Ruin was changed because bhvr was worried about new survivors dropping the game. What they didn't do, was fixed the reason why killers felt the need to always run it.
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I Hate it because I get hit by it even when I'm not tunneling
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Bad survivors don’t want to be punished for mistakes.
Good survivors don’t want to lose their ability to screw with the killer.
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In the case of two slugs. Isn't that better than two working on gens? Even if they pick eachother up its still 30 seconds. Without DS that survivor wouldn't make that play. Don't mistake that without a perk survivors would behave the same. Or are you always around the hook?
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Because it’s already been nerfed. Many killers don’t know how ds worked back in the day which was more busted imo, it’s literally a 5 second stun and when killers get DS’d that makes them chase after the survivor even more because it’s close to death. Like 5 seconds won’t do anything.
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Because they think the perk is okay.
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That combo is rare its like nerfing nurse because a God tier nurse cant be beat
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The way it is now is fair. Because a survivor can use a perk to their advantage doesn't make it abusive. It matters if the workings of the perk can be consider fair.
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DS should be automatically deactivate if you hop on a gen, unhooking someone etc.
It shouldn't be a free pass of reckless playing.
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I understand that, truly.
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I'll give you the simplest answer.
Because most of the changes that are being asked for come from anecdotal evidence, biased reasoning... and other ideas like the one you pointed out as an example don't make sense, when you look at the broader picture of why DS even exists in this game.
If you can't look at what DS is countering and that changing, then there is no point in looking into changes to DS. Camping and Tunneling are mechanics available in every single match, regardless if a killer wants to "play nice". This is a problem in and of itself. You have a mechanic which virtually allows you to take someone out of the game asap, meanwhile you can still completely negate DS by slugging.
DS has always existed as a anti-momentum perk, now it caters to both. The description doesn't read "Using whatever is at hand, you stab at your
tunnelerin an ultimate attempt to escape." it reads "Using whatever is at hand, you stab at your aggressor in an ultimate attempt to escape." The scenarios which are used on these forums such as: "I hooked 2 people and one got saved, I downed them but I can't hook them again that's not fair" When there is more context than that, like the fact that they were proxy camping and therefore forced a farm, the stun is warranted at that point. Mind you, that isn't as common of a scenario as people make it out to be IMO.I would rather DS stay the way it is for the same reason that Camping/Tunneling/Slugging stay the same. Someone outright tunneling is not the same as someone who just happens to find the same person, but when you add the fact that you can slug without a timer (unlike DS) and you can do it multiple times, DS which again, is a perk... becomes nullified.
People who keep saying "Survivors have 60 seconds of immunity" , let me remind you, the timer starts WHEN the survivor is unhooked, NOT when you down the survivor. Just a little piece of misinformation that again these forums likes to parade.
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Explain to me how it is not unfair. Because it has been proven empirically it is NOT an anti-tunneling perk.
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Why must it be an anti tunnel perk to be fair?
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That still wont stop the other 2 survivors working on gens. And the killer is pretty much forced to go away or else he loses those 2 gens. And I stick around the hook if needed, Im not gonna let a survivor running towards a hook get a free save.
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