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"Balance vs Counter Play" (With a brief about how to make keys more fun and fair)
So I like making up my own perks and imagine reworks for perks, because I think that counter play are important, or at least getting as close to those things you can in an asymmetrical game.
However, the Dev's seem to want to droning this idea of balance and I'm sorry to say, that this term is absolutely unachievable without some major over hauls. A new killer comes out who is decent and before it leaves the PTB it gets nerfed to ######### in the name of "balance." Obviously the last time they truly fundamentally nerfed survivor is when they got pallet vacuums out of the game nearly 2 years ago now.
Dev's, lemme level with you for a second. Balance is the highest bar you could strive for which I understand, but you honestly need to stop trying to strive for it unless you are going to change the game at its most base elements. I want to see words like counter play used from now on. The reason is because it doesn't have to be perfectly fair to not frustrate the best players, just possible. I see many a decent killers having to proxy keys on the ground because there is no other counter play to it otherwise. How can you talk about balance when by the mere sight of a key in a lobby, a killer must now add a whole new objective to their game. You even removed the ability to change killers in lobby so you can pick a hag or some other killer who would be best to deal with a key on the ground in lobby? There is literally no way to stop a key, but when it comes time to make a community perk forum, its "remember to think about balance." It's such a point of inconsistency that I can't even stomach the thought of hearing the term balance talked about in these dev podcasts anymore. Please either change fundamentally how the game works so you can achieve something even approximating "balance" or just set your bar lower and just focus on there being counter play.
I honestly believe that there is some genius levels of counter play as a concept that appear all over the game, but Balance is just too high a bar for you guys to attain with the position the game is in. FFS, swf effectively gives you an extra super perk, and nullifies at least 5 perks a killer could possibly take. So just set the bar a little lower and aim for counter play. For the key situation, if a survivor just places a key on top of the hatch, anyone who walks over it later could get a free escape and the killer can do literally nothing about it except kill before the situation is possible. That is not counter play. Lemme tell you what counter play in this situation would be. If a key is on the ground, a killer should be able to pick it up, and if a survivor wants it back, they can get it. They just need to earn it somehow. How about, if they finish a gen, then the killer is forced to drop the key and cannot pick it up, or if the killer is stunned in a chase, or if they get in a chase for over 60 seconds without a down the key drops. Or even better how about this:
After a killer picks up a key, a 60 second timer starts, and once the timer stops, the key is automatically dropped, and they can not pick that particular key up again for the rest of the match. Now wouldn't that be something? So a killer picks up the key they found, and then they can go and do something that helps them win the game, and to mess with the survivors, they could wait until just before the key drops and then go try to hide it in a place the survivors wouldn't think to go.
Now follow me for a second, at first glance if you say "But what about balance?" Well you could come up with a myriad of justifications against this idea. But what if instead you said, what is the counter play? Then the idea can be worked with. So to my suggestion on survivors side, TONS of counter play that is already in the game.
- Survivors could just go and hide their keys and now the killer has to worry about finding the key.
- Survivors could track the killer and find out where the killer drops the key if they manage to pick one up.
- Survivors could just do the fking GENS and escape normally!!
- The survivor with a key could just be good in chases and not die so they don't lose the key.
- Survivors could just
And if that isn't enough, you could even make more counters like what I suggested earlier about stunning the killer force drops the key and what ever else.
Suddenly, the game becomes more dynamic with a key in the game rather than just a free escape for 1 or more survivors, and the killer can honestly harbor some blame for their performance instead of being able to (justifiably so) blame a mechanic they have little to absolutely no counter play too. If you Dev's only focus on "Balance" You will never come up with amazing ideas myself and others are coming up with on these forums all the time. But if you just think in terms of "Counter Play," a lot of new, interesting, and most importantly fun design choices could be made. Consider this too, there are high level players who find ways to counter killers you make in the PTB that you think are too strong before you nerf them. In a lot of ways this game is like a fighting game, where there are some strong abilities, but if you can read your opponents intentions, there can be a way around it even if it is difficult. So try out what I'm talking about, or just hire me ffs.
Comments
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Here are all the killers who got changed from PTB
Oni:Agreed they overdid it but he needed a change to his flick
PH: After ptb but again needed as he had no counter play in chase
GF: Buffed massively because he was garbage
Blight: Buffed hit boxes and pallet destruction base kit
Twins: Ability to hold lockers and recall Victor
Demo: pallet destruction base kit which helped massively
Billy: This didn’t need to happen agreed
Bubba: Nice addon changes
I don’t know where all these nerfs are coming from man.
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The thing I would remove from keys is ability to open hatch, and obviously give key some other function instead, maybe instant open exit gates when all gens are done? Had lots of experiences where survivors escaped through hatch with key and acted superior in postgame chat. Keys can completely kill snowball. Escaping with key gives survivors weird ego trip. I just dodge keys or bring Franklin's and tunnel the key player. I have lots of keys on my survivors but refuse to use them purely out of fact how unfair it can be to killer.
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As a fellow "I like to make unreasonably long lists of changes to perks and stuff that I know will get very little attention, for fun", I think that you have a very good viewpoint when it comes to all this. I think that most of the time though, more counter-play to something makes something powerful more balanced. And things tend to be more fun to face (and sometimes use) when there is counter-play. So, these things considered, I think it would be best to buff perks, items, ect... that are currently weaker, and then add some counter-play where applicable. Interaction between survivors and killers are the core part of this game's fun. Add more interaction, get a happier player base.
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You forgot the big one. Freddy on Release
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Okay that’s fair but he is now top tier so
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I know you get me, but what does it mean to even be top tier? Like great you can pressure gens and you are not complete ######### in chases anymore. You also didn't mention Spirit but she got a big boy buff on release so I get it
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Freddy has good chase potential with snares, built in stealth with non directional lullaby and glimpses on awake survivors. Good gen pressure with dream projection and an in built borrowed time counter.
Also he never has any slowdown to his base movement speed
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Its kind of funny to think about a key that doesn't open hatch. Conceptually if you could use a key to open the gates, why does it need to do gens? I get where you come from on a gameplay perspective though.
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Right I follow that Freddy is way better, but the core of the problem I'm focused on is that the Dev's make careless design change decisions in the name of balance, but balance is a peak they can't meet until they provide counter play. Some Killers can make some situations that are typically 0% success to a 20% success. It's just I think there is a problem with Dev's thinking that their work is done have more skins and better T-Bag animations.
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Gates are powered up on electricity from generators though . 🤪
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I mean, it doesn't really make sense that the locks open slowly when an electrical lever is pulled. So what would the key do you know? Oh great, now you put in the key the electricity flows 1000% the normal rate. TBH I actually do like your idea.
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Imagine it like a safety function. I can totally see a switch that needs to be held down for like 15 seconds being a valid response to "the door door needs to take longer to open". And a safety feature that lets the killer catch up to you is such a classic Slasher thing
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I agree with your gneral analysis, but I don't like your specific example of picking up the items. In my opinion, a better way to balance it would to make the hatch take time to open, and the killer is aware the second that timer ticks down
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Different teams for different jobs and tbagging does fall under survivor locomotion so they had to change it.
Agreed though the devs makes weird choices occasionally such as the gear head nerf or billy rework
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I stopped paying attention when you tried to claim that the last time survivor was nerfed was with pallet vacuums. Even ignoring all of the direct nerfs... Map reworks.
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