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I take it back

TheBigBingus
TheBigBingus Member Posts: 97
edited February 2021 in General Discussions

A week ago I made a post about how I was happy that the devs listened. I take it back. every kind word about them I said I take back. how in gods name, after a WEEK DELAY, are you going to release the exact same update as the PTB with half the bugs and glitches still included, the same garbage UI that EVERYDODY dislikes, with no option to change it back to the old UI, and these HORRIBLE animations that actually somehow messed up hitboxes. I saw a guy describing it as the killers having extendo arms, and that's the most accurate thing I've ever read on these forums. My take is that the survivors also managed to gain spirits passive phase ability, and just pretend the killers weapon doesn't exist. Howe in the entity's name did you guys manage to have a patch this bad, even after a weeks delay? and not even that, but MMR is delayed again, and we get no rank rewards. if this update was intended to piss of your community, then I think you've done a pretty good job so far.

Comments

  • WeenieDog
    WeenieDog Member Posts: 2,184

    So which is worse. The twin release or this patch?

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335

    Sorry off topic, but don't want to make a new thread about it.

    Anyone know when the the rank 20 reset ######### starts?

  • WeenieDog
    WeenieDog Member Posts: 2,184

    I was wondering the exact same thing when the patch hit. I guess on 13th like usually.

  • Ryan489x
    Ryan489x Member Posts: 1,503

    there's no word on that, though I'm intrigued by your hatred of it. It's not really that big a deal. you get blood points for a rank range and it resets, also that's the way it was when the game first came out minus the blood points.

  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903

    It is not reasonable to expect the devs to fix every issue identified in the PTB in time for release. It is also not reasonable to expect them to revert time-intensive changes like new animations and HUD updates because of the first impressions of a small subset of players on one platform. People always hate new UI in any software, but once they get used to it they usually realize it's not so bad. I'm expecting the same thing to happen here. It's not perfect, but it's not worth being this dramatic about either.

    I also don't recall them every saying MMR would be released in this update - did they explicitly say it was being delayed, or are you inferring that by it not being present in 4.5.0?

  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903

    Twin release by a mile, and the fact that some on the forum might be on the fence on this is a little worrying lol

  • Huge_Bush
    Huge_Bush Member Posts: 5,431

    I believe that the Twins weren't meant to be released for at least another six months and they pushed it out sooner due to licensing issues with whatever killer they were planning on releasing or due to the licensed killer not being ready. They just feel like a killer that's still in the alpha stage.

  • TheBigBingus
    TheBigBingus Member Posts: 97

    it is absolutely reasonable to expect that game breaking bugs like hitboxes being broken and the invisible corner tech on the asylum maps don't make it into the game from PTB. it is also absolutely reasonable to expect that change would be made when there was such backlash over the change to the UI. the fact that we have no option to change to legacy UI is unacceptable, and that there is no customization of the Hud is also unacceptable, because customization exists on MOBILE. And if you're actually going to use the "they used time and resources on it so now they can't go back" excuse, go watch Scott Jund's video on this, and he explains why that's a silly argument that makes zero logical sense. we have every right to be upset because unlike the twins chapter, this update FUNDEMENTALLY changes how the game is played.

  • Clevite
    Clevite Member Posts: 4,335
  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903

    I had heard something like that as well and I'd totally buy it. That's exactly what it felt like.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,739
    edited February 2021

    As someone who works in software development. It IS reasonable us to expect them to make some kind of changes from the PTB to live. That is 3 weeks most of the time. 3 weeks is 1.5 sprints (if they work in agile, which if they don't explains a lot). If you can't deploy something in a sprint, you are doing it wrong.


    UI updates are something that, visually, should take no more than a few days tops, granted the backend parts that hook up to the game might take longer, but those are already done and there. They could completely visually rework the UI again, using the same backend and it shouldn't take more than a SINGLE DEVELOPER a sprint (2 weeks) to complete, this is assuming they have a pretty rigid pipeline of testing. This doesn't mean that it gets changed in a few days or gets pushed out right away, but that it gets put into the next deploy, which should really start being every couple of weeks and not this, one update every 1.5 months they do, especially given how little is done during that time.


    As for this UI. Again, as a software developer (one that literally makes UIs), this UI is terribly designed because it requires you to look everywhere for all of your useful information.

  • OniWantsYourMacaroni
    OniWantsYourMacaroni Member Posts: 5,944

    It will happen when we get the MMR system...

    So probably never

  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903
    edited February 2021

    There is no reason for them to include a legacy UI option. That's just more maintenance for them and it makes more sense for them to be putting those dev hours into something more productive. They should just make one system that works, which the new HUD is close to being.

    There was no customization before and now we at least have UI scaling. I'm not sure why you're mad about them improving on this front.

    Can you link me to a single post showing the ping of the killer and survivor both being low and then having one of these unexpected hits happen? I haven't seen one yet.

    Can you also link me to a post about the "invisible corner tech"? I haven't heard of this.

    "They used time and resources on it" is not a valid reason to keep something inferior in the game. That's just a sunk cost fallacy. It is certainly a valid reason not to entirely revert a change due to negative first impressions, though, because the time and effort involved confirms that the devs considered these important changes to make. I'm sure one of the goals is to make the game feel more current visually, which it now does, to discourage tunneling and better team play by giving survivors information on hook states, which it now does, to make it more modular and scalable, which it now is, and to improve performance, which they have (my skill checks have never been smoother). "Oh no, now information is on the top too!" x 100 is not nearly enough to outweigh those improvements. It makes much more sense to work with what we have. Add some opacity to the hook progress and bleed timer bars and maybe make them bigger, consider moving some information around a bit, etc., but definitely don't revert it.

    This update does not fundamentally change how the game is played, unless you consider slightly harder 360s and moonwalks to be "fundamental changes".

  • ClassicSun
    ClassicSun Member Posts: 8

    I have to agree. I’m disappointed and honestly extremely upset about this update. I’ve been playing both killer and survivor for nearly a year. In the last two days (as playing as survivor) I have been unfairly hit and glitched in every game at least once. In all of the games I’ve played in the last two days they have ALL been in The Game except for one (and I used an offering for it). I have been unable to run or play and the UI is awful. I appreciate the hook counter for survivors but the killer have survivor profiles and individual hook counts (an over all count would be fine, e.I. 9/12 hooks) just encouraged tunneling. Also having the profiles in the top corner is horrible location wise because you don’t naturally look up there where in the bottom corner you could see them slightly when you looked at the center of the screen.

    i understand nerfing DS but to the degree that they did makes it pretty much useless. Also the fact that breaking pallets and the Wraiths movement is faster was just unneeded. I don’t think the visual buff for the wraith was a terrible idea, but the pallet breaking speed is honestly unreasonable.

    I like the new graphics but the lag and glitches are game ruining

  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903
    edited February 2021

    I also work in software development and there is no chance in hell lol. Are you expecting them to drop all of their other responsibilities and prioritize PTB fixes? They've proven time and time again that they want to prioritize new content over bug fixes and performance improvements. If they want to change that philosophy, some might be happy (I know I would) and we'd probably see more stable code and faster fixes, but then the "I only play when there's an event or a new patch" crowd might lose interest and cause the player base to shrink. It's not as simple as "just do a sprint and fix all of your problems".

    The new UI requires you to look at the top left, top center, bottom right, and center right for information, but realistically the top center is irrelevant since players shouldn't have to look for the number of gens remaining unless they're new. The old UI required you to look at the bottom left, bottom right, and middle right for information. In both cases you're looking "everywhere" but no one cared before; the only main difference is statuses in the top left instead of the bottom left. It's all well and good to pack all of your information in the same corner, but after a certain point it gets busy and you're sacrificing your ability to quickly scan for information. Is it great? No. Is it worth rioting over? Also no.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,739

    No, i don't expect them to drop everything, but the PTB is your environment before production.

    The point of the PTB, is to test things, make sure they aren't broken, and then fix them before they go live. If they aren't prioritizing fixing issues before they go live, then what the hell is the point of the PTB even existing? Just deploy stuff at that point.


    If you deploy stuff to the PTB, and it is completely broken (the entire Twins patch), or everyone HATES an entire new feature you added. you should FIX THEM before they go live. And if you can't you delay the live patch until they are. This obviously isn't the dev's fault, it's whoever is in charge of production who had the go/no-go meeting and thought "yeah let's just go, this is a good idea".


    Ideally, you should fix things that need to be fixed. Nobody asked for a new UI, so why did they prioritize that to begin with, why fix what isn't broken? There are some very obvious fundamental problems with how they operate as a company and software team that need to be fixed or this is going to just get worse.

  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903
    edited February 2021

    Yeah, they clearly aren't treating the PTB as some sort of REL environment in which testing needs to succeed before promoting. I'd say it still has a purpose for speeding up fix/enhancement timelines versus just evaluating the damage after you go live and for letting interested players try out the new content early. That feels more in line with how they've been using it, anyway.

    I 100% agree about the Twins. 5 of the 6 new perks didn't work correctly, animations weren't done, Victor could easily get stuck in the ground or abducted into the hatch, etc. It was a mess and never should have went live, and they should have pulled it after seeing how bad it was on the PTB. Still, I don't think feedback on strictly cosmetic UI changes and mostly cosmetic animation changes, both of which will likely take a while for people to warm up to, is on that same level of "abort abort abort". The core game still functions and the new content certainly isn't unfinished or broken.

    I do wish they would prioritize performance and stability instead of spamming out lots of relatively buggy new content, but you also have to admit there are a lot of players here that are only in it for the new content. If there isn't an event going on, or a new killer, or a big balance change, or something, they're not as likely to play. I'm sure they've calculated that accepting more bugs is okay so long as they can keep the DLC wheels turning. I don't agree with it either, but it's nothing new from them and it's also not the main reason folks are complaining about each new patch, at least on the forum.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,739

    I guess with the UI thing is that, nobody actually wanted it. At least as far as we know. It isn't something i ever saw a single complaint on the forum, yet they dedicated time and resources to it. When people have been asking (both killer and survivor) for survivors to have something else to do other than hold m1 and a variety of other small, but impactful changes they could make that they continuously push off and off without ever actually making any real progress on.

  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903
    edited February 2021

    That's fair, although I'm not sure that chorus is really loud enough that I'd expect the devs to make that a priority. I'm fine with them not adding anything else for survivors to do, for example, but I of course also have my pet list of changes I'd like to see. I agree that no one necessarily wanted the new UI, but there are a lot of reasonable motives behind it: modernizing the look of the game as a part of their ongoing graphics overhaul, improving performance (skill checks are more smooth now then they've every been), improving modularity/maintainability, adding UI scaling support to look good on a wider variety of displays, giving players more information in order to encourage "healthy" gameplay (e.g. survivors having a hook state indicator to close the information gap between SWF and solo a bit and to encourage the team to better look after players that are getting tunneled and such), etc.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,739

    Sure, do those things, but it is obvious they don't have a UX designer, or if they do they aren't good at their job.

  • Reinami
    Reinami Member Posts: 5,739

    I'm not a UX designer, i also like my current job/place of employment.

  • DarKaron
    DarKaron Member Posts: 615

    In my own opinion, the thing that irritates me the mosy is the hook states counter, for Killer in particular.

    Survivors get all the info they need to succeed, meanwhile, Killers are left hanging to try with this useless counter on the left.

    Oh, I got 4 hooks so far! I wonder how I could have ever known- Oh, wait, I have Dying Light/ Huntress Lullaby/ Devour Hope on.

    It literally serves no purpose for me, and with a dedicated per-player counter, I could at least figure out which Survivor is about to die so I can extend the game as long as possible.

  • Vetrathene
    Vetrathene Member Posts: 1,425

    What a mess this is. The fact they are flip flopping on "not being able to go back" to "won't go back" is horrible. The former is a lie, the second is just casual disregard for your player base. Neither one is helping the issue, and is in fact likely making it worse.

  • Zeidoktor
    Zeidoktor Member Posts: 2,065

    I think the problem isn't that they didn't fix every issue, it's that they didn't fix any issues. It's perfectly reasonable to expect the devs to fix at least some of the issues brought to their attention.

  • Zeidoktor
    Zeidoktor Member Posts: 2,065

    I stand corrected, though I think that "they didn't fix anything" is the overall perception, accurate or not, since the general opinion of most of these changes was "don't do them" and they (a) did them anyway and (b) got a whole bunch of extra bugs added on top for good measure. There's a reason the general feeling I've seen is "the devs don't listen to feedback" and/ or "don't care what the players think". Even now with the tweeted changes to the HUD I'm now entirely convinced the only reason is because people were so vehemently against the changes to begin with.

  • notstarboard
    notstarboard Member Posts: 3,903

    Yeah, and I also don't mean to imply there's no room for improvement on their part either. There definitely is.