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Thoughts on Camping/Tunneling

KiraElijah
KiraElijah Member Posts: 1,187
I honestly don’t mind camping, but tunneling is another story

Comments

  • Runiver
    Runiver Member Posts: 2,095

    Both are pretty annoying, but necessary to some extent.

  • Manta
    Manta Member Posts: 117
    edited June 2018
    Whilst camping is obviously not against any rules, it's tedious gameplay. Just saps the fun and energy out of a game
  • Cetren
    Cetren Member Posts: 985
    Both are legitimate strategies to help the killer win. The only reason they'd be annoying is because it causes you to lose on rerms that aren't your own, which is how dying should be like.
  • Fre_Shavacado0
    Fre_Shavacado0 Member Posts: 106

    if i get unhooked while the killer is there and they tunnel me, i’m annoyed at the other survivor for unhooking me at a bad time. the only killer i really get annoyed at when they tunnel is the Pig, only because the reverse bear traps are there for a reason, so if i am chased while the timer is going it’s sortof frustrating but it is a strategy to get a kill so what can i say.

  • Warp
    Warp Member Posts: 5

    Camping is just for baby killers, the worst strategy in the game. Tunnelling, on the other hand, is not wrong, but if your tunnelling when other survivors are easier to get(in a more exposed position), then it's your problem. Even though I'm a survivor main, and don't have much time on killers, I know that killers don't have a lot of time, but in too many occasions, I can sit on a gen right next to the loop where the killer is being looped and the killer just going to tunnel. I usually play Billy or Myers when I play killer, punishing the survivor doing a bad save seems to be more effective, sprint will usually be already used, I can get a chainsaw or on them most of the time. For camping, its just a waste of time, as sacrificing is only one of the four emblems, and spending 120 seconds next to a hook and let the survivors to get almost 4 gens done(if they do gen which is what they should be doing) doesn't seem to be a good trade, looking for other survivors is far more effective, I tried to facecamp everyone, most of the time I only get 1 or 2 kills, while going for others gets me lot more hatch games.

  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @Fre_Shavacado0 said:
    if i get unhooked while the killer is there and they tunnel me, i’m annoyed at the other survivor for unhooking me at a bad time. the only killer i really get annoyed at when they tunnel is the Pig, only because the reverse bear traps are there for a reason, so if i am chased while the timer is going it’s sortof frustrating but it is a strategy to get a kill so what can i say.

    You can also argue that the bear trap makes tracking easier :wink:

  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @Warp said:
    Camping is just for baby killers, the worst strategy in the game. Tunnelling, on the other hand, is not wrong, but if your tunnelling when other survivors are easier to get(in a more exposed position), then it's your problem. Even though I'm a survivor main, and don't have much time on killers, I know that killers don't have a lot of time, but in too many occasions, I can sit on a gen right next to the loop where the killer is being looped and the killer just going to tunnel. I usually play Billy or Myers when I play killer, punishing the survivor doing a bad save seems to be more effective, sprint will usually be already used, I can get a chainsaw or on them most of the time. For camping, its just a waste of time, as sacrificing is only one of the four emblems, and spending 120 seconds next to a hook and let the survivors to get almost 4 gens done(if they do gen which is what they should be doing) doesn't seem to be a good trade, looking for other survivors is far more effective, I tried to facecamp everyone, most of the time I only get 1 or 2 kills, while going for others gets me lot more hatch games.

    Call me a baby killer, but I dont know what to do against a squad with flashlights/DS, if I finally manage to catch one and pick him up, then im not gonna move away from the hook anymore :lol:
    Watching streams have told me that it is not my fault being an "unexperienced" killer at only 500+ hours, nope even the several thousand hour killers can do nothing against it :wink: (you as a survivor main wont understand that though)

  • kwieen
    kwieen Member Posts: 1

    Surviror main here (600h)- played killer for 3 hours maybe.
    I also often get ######### up by getting tunneled or camping killers.
    BUT this is a personal problem. Neither DBD nor the killer is responsible for how you feel about camping.

    @The_Trapper said:
    Camping is a legit strategy. Tunnelling is a matter of opinion, if i'm a survivor and I get tunnelled; i'm not angry at the killer, just the survivor for unhooking me at a bad time.

    But if i'm a killer, i'll tunnel if I see them. Gens are completed to quickly to be picky about who I chase, and I don't much appreciate playing nicely just to get teabagged at the end.

    I also handle my rage about this with this opinion. Camping and Tunneling is a legit Strategy.
    I guess, killers who play this style aren't skilled enough like Killer, who don't need to camp.

    It is everyone's decision in which way he wants to play (i don't mean hacking, guys :D)

    So everyone calm down and spread love between Killers and Survivors <3

  • Manta
    Manta Member Posts: 117
    Master said:

    @Manta said:
    Whilst camping is obviously not against any rules, it's tedious gameplay. Just saps the fun and energy out of a game

    Actually it can be quite refreshing after a long and frustrating chase to relax in front of a hook, accepting that you cannot win everygame due to the balance and just waiting to go in the next game

    Haha, I've not once felt that whilst being camped in a year and a half 😂
  • Warp
    Warp Member Posts: 5

    @Master said:

    @Warp said:
    Camping is just for baby killers, the worst strategy in the game. Tunnelling, on the other hand, is not wrong, but if your tunnelling when other survivors are easier to get(in a more exposed position), then it's your problem. Even though I'm a survivor main, and don't have much time on killers, I know that killers don't have a lot of time, but in too many occasions, I can sit on a gen right next to the loop where the killer is being looped and the killer just going to tunnel. I usually play Billy or Myers when I play killer, punishing the survivor doing a bad save seems to be more effective, sprint will usually be already used, I can get a chainsaw or on them most of the time. For camping, its just a waste of time, as sacrificing is only one of the four emblems, and spending 120 seconds next to a hook and let the survivors to get almost 4 gens done(if they do gen which is what they should be doing) doesn't seem to be a good trade, looking for other survivors is far more effective, I tried to facecamp everyone, most of the time I only get 1 or 2 kills, while going for others gets me lot more hatch games.

    Call me a baby killer, but I dont know what to do against a squad with flashlights/DS, if I finally manage to catch one and pick him up, then im not gonna move away from the hook anymore :lol:
    Watching streams have told me that it is not my fault being an "unexperienced" killer at only 500+ hours, nope even the several thousand hour killers can do nothing against it :wink: (you as a survivor main wont understand that though)

    Get in more chase to practice, kills don't equal skills, rank doesn't equal to skills, getting more experience by chasing will help you more than camping and getting a single kill dude.

  • Warp
    Warp Member Posts: 5

    @Master said:

    @Warp said:
    Camping is just for baby killers, the worst strategy in the game. Tunnelling, on the other hand, is not wrong, but if your tunnelling when other survivors are easier to get(in a more exposed position), then it's your problem. Even though I'm a survivor main, and don't have much time on killers, I know that killers don't have a lot of time, but in too many occasions, I can sit on a gen right next to the loop where the killer is being looped and the killer just going to tunnel. I usually play Billy or Myers when I play killer, punishing the survivor doing a bad save seems to be more effective, sprint will usually be already used, I can get a chainsaw or on them most of the time. For camping, its just a waste of time, as sacrificing is only one of the four emblems, and spending 120 seconds next to a hook and let the survivors to get almost 4 gens done(if they do gen which is what they should be doing) doesn't seem to be a good trade, looking for other survivors is far more effective, I tried to facecamp everyone, most of the time I only get 1 or 2 kills, while going for others gets me lot more hatch games.

    Call me a baby killer, but I dont know what to do against a squad with flashlights/DS, if I finally manage to catch one and pick him up, then im not gonna move away from the hook anymore :lol:
    Watching streams have told me that it is not my fault being an "unexperienced" killer at only 500+ hours, nope even the several thousand hour killers can do nothing against it :wink: (you as a survivor main wont understand that though)

    Why won't I understand? I do get completely destroyed by swf groups sometimes, I know its frustrating, while the group feels great, But when you start to destroy survivors, isn't that frustrating to the survivors? While you are having a great time. Being a survivor main doesn't mean I know nothing about the killer side of things, I have been through a lot worse than what you experience now, try killer back in the day when pallets are in every available spot and everyone runs sprint + balanced landing (there is no exhaustion at the time).

    BTW, I used to only play killer as survivor is much harder to learn.

  • Sly
    Sly Member Posts: 2

    I am perplexed by players in this thread that feel camping is legitimate but tunneling is questionable. Camping is a more unfun mechanic then tunneling in every situation imaginable.

    You start the match on Ironworks of Misery in the corner by an empty gen. No jungle gym. Start of the game the chainsaw revs up and Billy lucked out and picked your corner first. You give him a run for thirty seconds before your barren wasteland results in you a down. Billy hooks you up and revs his chainsaw for an eternity.

    Some survivors are very altruistic and come by the hook to see you're getting the old camp. They employ distraction measures to get you down. No gens get done. Billy downs a survivor and you get unhooked.

    Well now you can play the game!

    No, Billy is tunneling now and you're down again because all the nearby pallets were used trying to save you. You're on the hook again and camped.

    So to break it into two bits.

    If survivors fail to lure the killer away, or don't save you. You joined a game and wasted a minute and a half on a hook picking your nose. The killer secures the kill they wanted.

    The initial layout of my story shows you got off the hook. Let's imagine instead there are pallets to run through and windows to vault. The killer is tunneling you but you're making choices. You're deciding what to do. Do I loop this area and try to outsmart him on the lunge? Do I hope this locker before the chainsaw hits me? Maybe since he was a scumbag to me, I can be a scumbag back and play this window three times.

    If you get tunneled you can at least participate in the game. If you get camped it's boring, unfun and everyone gets less points. Killer is not chasing if they are staring into Neas eyes hatefully.

    I dunno about other players, but outsmarting the opposing player (rather as a killer or survivor) is more fun than taking my hands off the keyboard and watching Dwight die on a hook.

  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @Warp said:

    @Master said:

    @Warp said:
    Camping is just for baby killers, the worst strategy in the game. Tunnelling, on the other hand, is not wrong, but if your tunnelling when other survivors are easier to get(in a more exposed position), then it's your problem. Even though I'm a survivor main, and don't have much time on killers, I know that killers don't have a lot of time, but in too many occasions, I can sit on a gen right next to the loop where the killer is being looped and the killer just going to tunnel. I usually play Billy or Myers when I play killer, punishing the survivor doing a bad save seems to be more effective, sprint will usually be already used, I can get a chainsaw or on them most of the time. For camping, its just a waste of time, as sacrificing is only one of the four emblems, and spending 120 seconds next to a hook and let the survivors to get almost 4 gens done(if they do gen which is what they should be doing) doesn't seem to be a good trade, looking for other survivors is far more effective, I tried to facecamp everyone, most of the time I only get 1 or 2 kills, while going for others gets me lot more hatch games.

    Call me a baby killer, but I dont know what to do against a squad with flashlights/DS, if I finally manage to catch one and pick him up, then im not gonna move away from the hook anymore :lol:
    Watching streams have told me that it is not my fault being an "unexperienced" killer at only 500+ hours, nope even the several thousand hour killers can do nothing against it :wink: (you as a survivor main wont understand that though)

    Get in more chase to practice, kills don't equal skills, rank doesn't equal to skills, getting more experience by chasing will help you more than camping and getting a single kill dude.

    When a several thousand hour killermain playing this game as his job cant handle it, how am I as a normal player supposed to practice enough to be able to handle such a situation (assuming that the game mechanics allow you at all, which I dont think they do)

    And im not talking about nurse, thats another story

  • The_Trapper
    The_Trapper Member Posts: 186

    @kwieen said:
    Surviror main here (600h)- played killer for 3 hours maybe.
    I also often get ######### up by getting tunneled or camping killers.
    BUT this is a personal problem. Neither DBD nor the killer is responsible for how you feel about camping.

    @The_Trapper said:
    Camping is a legit strategy. Tunnelling is a matter of opinion, if i'm a survivor and I get tunnelled; i'm not angry at the killer, just the survivor for unhooking me at a bad time.

    But if i'm a killer, i'll tunnel if I see them. Gens are completed to quickly to be picky about who I chase, and I don't much appreciate playing nicely just to get teabagged at the end.

    I also handle my rage about this with this opinion. Camping and Tunneling is a legit Strategy.
    I guess, killers who play this style aren't skilled enough like Killer, who don't need to camp.

    It is everyone's decision in which way he wants to play (i don't mean hacking, guys :D)

    So everyone calm down and spread love between Killers and Survivors <3

    That's fair enough, I guess survivors who use any strategy such as looping, using DS, using a flashlight or any item also lack the skill to play a survivor who doesn't use them :silenced:

  • ED93L0RD
    ED93L0RD Member Posts: 2
    I've played both sides and tend to play killer more granted I have been playin survivor recently but none of the less coming from a killer main I think camping and tunneling aren't play styles I think theyre scummy, they suck the life out of the survivor your doing this to and it's not fun to be idle until someone you caught is now dead
  • AlexAnarchy
    AlexAnarchy Member Posts: 685
    edited June 2018

    @Dwight_Fairfield said:
    Both suck, IMO. The only time I think camping is ok is if the exit gates are powered and someone is on the hook.

    Just gonna post this for you and master and any other folks who wanna say camping is not okay nor intended or should be removed.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS3DvvOQI04

  • Dwight_Fairfield
    Dwight_Fairfield Member Posts: 7,016

    @AlexAnarchy said:

    @Dwight_Fairfield said:
    Both suck, IMO. The only time I think camping is ok is if the exit gates are powered and someone is on the hook.

    Just gonna post this for you and master and any other folks who wanna say camping is not okay nor intended or should be removed.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS3DvvOQI04

    Ok I watched it. Which part of this is relevant to what we were saying?

  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @AlexAnarchy said:

    @Dwight_Fairfield said:
    Both suck, IMO. The only time I think camping is ok is if the exit gates are powered and someone is on the hook.

    Just gonna post this for you and master and any other folks who wanna say camping is not okay nor intended or should be removed.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS3DvvOQI04

    Camping is just a non-fun strategy for the other side, sure its totally legit but I dont think that we want to support this kind of behaviour, do we?

  • Dwight_Fairfield
    Dwight_Fairfield Member Posts: 7,016
    edited June 2018

    @Master said:

    @AlexAnarchy said:

    @Dwight_Fairfield said:
    Both suck, IMO. The only time I think camping is ok is if the exit gates are powered and someone is on the hook.

    Just gonna post this for you and master and any other folks who wanna say camping is not okay nor intended or should be removed.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS3DvvOQI04

    Camping is just a non-fun strategy for the other side, sure its totally legit but I dont think that we want to support this kind of behaviour, do we?

    Oh is that what he was referring to. Yeah you're right.

    We all know the Devs are ok with camping. But that's like saying they are ok with body blocking the hook and other stuff survivors are allowed do that annoys the hell out of killers.

  • GunManSpy
    GunManSpy Member Posts: 50

    Camping and Tunneling are okay, I don't complain. I don't do it myself when I play killer though, I like to give people a chance plus you get more bloodpoints for not camping.

  • AlexAnarchy
    AlexAnarchy Member Posts: 685

    @Master said:

    @AlexAnarchy said:

    @Dwight_Fairfield said:
    Both suck, IMO. The only time I think camping is ok is if the exit gates are powered and someone is on the hook.

    Just gonna post this for you and master and any other folks who wanna say camping is not okay nor intended or should be removed.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS3DvvOQI04

    Camping is just a non-fun strategy for the other side, sure its totally legit but I dont think that we want to support this kind of behaviour, do we?

    We don't want to support using legit strategies put in the game from day 1? Boy if that is'nt the story of DBD in a nutshell.

  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    @AlexAnarchy said:

    @Master said:

    @AlexAnarchy said:

    @Dwight_Fairfield said:
    Both suck, IMO. The only time I think camping is ok is if the exit gates are powered and someone is on the hook.

    Just gonna post this for you and master and any other folks who wanna say camping is not okay nor intended or should be removed.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SS3DvvOQI04

    Camping is just a non-fun strategy for the other side, sure its totally legit but I dont think that we want to support this kind of behaviour, do we?

    We don't want to support using legit strategies put in the game from day 1? Boy if that is'nt the story of DBD in a nutshell.

    I don't think the devs had what's happened in mind when they put those in though Alex. Although talk about the law of unintended consequences lol.

  • FIEND8LOODED
    FIEND8LOODED Member Posts: 336
    edited June 2018

    I'm not a big fan of camping, but I realize that it's a viable strategy and I'm not gonna voice my unhappiness after the game because I'm not that kind of person.

  • kimukipi
    kimukipi Member Posts: 137
    edited June 2018

    Tunneling is a really bad experience for the survivor that gets tunneled. I didn't realize this until I started playing both survivor and killer almost equally. Its a legit strategy for the killer i.e. to remove one opponent at a time but man how un-fun it can be for that survivor. You see the pig crouching and moving just far enough for you to get unhooked and then follows you around to put you down again. For the added salt, the pig has "Make your Choice" equipped (facepalm). Its especially brutal against solo survivors. After multiple first hand experience, I decided not to tunnel on the first hook when I play killer. I either go after the rescuer or completely ignore them and go after the bbq stack based on the situation. However I don't hesitate to tunnel on their second hook if the survivors are competitive and gens are getting done promptly.

    Camping is debatable and has its own pros and cons if done properly which have been discussed in plenty already so I won't get into that.

    Post edited by kimukipi on
  • Itq
    Itq Member Posts: 29
    edited June 2018

    Both sucks. People doesn't camp / tunnel because those are "viable strat" (while they are) they do it just because they want to be dicks against other players in their game. Same applies to flashlight / ds fuckbois

  • ArcaneMantis
    ArcaneMantis Member Posts: 29

    They're both legitimate strats and honestly feel at least SOMEWHAT encouraged in some cases. We need not look past the whole obsession mechanic to see that tunneling IS a thing and sometimes is necessary. Camping eh not so much but Insidious is a thing and for a very obvious and specific strat. Is it fun to be on the end of a tunnel or a camp. Nope not at all but hey, its almost never fun when things dont go your way.

  • Otar
    Otar Member Posts: 6

    I always hunt the survivor, who unhooked the victim, so the victim get another chance to win this game, so it is a little bit tunneling. Sometimes I sacrifice just 1 survivor, but the rest of the group got hooked 1 or 2 times. So there is fun for me, because I can chase and it is not too frustating for the survivors. Camping is a no-go for me, because it is just boring, except i get a full swf-group, who run behind me, while I'm carrying a survivor and try to instant unhook, if I just go away 1 or 2 meters.

  • PrinceIpos
    PrinceIpos Member Posts: 15

    it's pretty frustrating to be camped and tunneled and depipped because evader points alone can't get you a rank

  • Beverly
    Beverly Member Posts: 184
    edited June 2018

    I loathed it when I first started playing, since I wasn't exactly a pro at juking/hiding. My gameplay was cut short whenever it happened because if I was being camped/tunneled, I had zero chance at getting a second shot. Now, I'm not bothered by it since it buys time for my teammates. Also, what is ultimately going to determine if a survivor makes it out is generator progress. Progress isn't hindered completely if one person is tunneled/camped. That leaves 3 people to do generators (If they aren't chasing the killer around and trying to flex their borrowed time and purple flashlights by unhooking as soon as the killer leaves.) Now, if it's the end game and the killer needs to secure a kill? That is common sense, and I'm not angry about that. To sum it up, annoying but understandable.

    Post edited by Beverly on
  • bandgeek16
    bandgeek16 Member Posts: 1

    Both suck, IMO. The only time I think camping is ok is if the exit gates are powered and someone is on the hook.


    I agree wi that caning is okay when the exit gates are powered and you wanna secure a kill but I hate being tunneled that just makes you the main target the whole game and no matter how good of a player you are you can’t run around a good killer forever 


  • Nick
    Nick Member Posts: 1,237

    Game supports camping / tunneling unfortunately. It's not nice, but I dont blame the killers (especially the weaker killers)

  • Dwight_Confusion
    Dwight_Confusion Member Posts: 1,650

    Camping is okay in certain times.

    When I'm getting hook rushed... you bet I'm patrol camping.

    I love how I can't go after the injured survivor when they are unhooked. It's just a great thing to hear.

    Survivors aren't entitled to survive.

  • StalwartXX
    StalwartXX Member Posts: 80
    edited June 2018

    I dislike camping, and won't do it. Hard not to be accused of it if when leaving a hook you spot another survivor on the way for the save and chase them but meh.

    Tunnelling is annoying but makes sense. If a survivor gets saved and you've got the choice between the 1 hit injured survivor or the 2 hit healthy one, why not go for the weaker one? It also makes more sense towards trying to lower their numbers. I can understand people dislike it and the reasons why, but letting you go because you were hooked seems like expecting way too much leeway really. Especially if that person has given you the run around for a while before you hooked them.

    Although I will say that if someone seems really new or bad to the game I'll try to give them a chance. I've had games where the person is clearly still in that learning curve where if it seems cruel to tunnel them then I won't.

  • HeroLives
    HeroLives Member Posts: 1,985
    I get why killers camp . It’s the same reason I avoid getting in chases as a survivor ,I can’t win them. 
  • Kate_Denson
    Kate_Denson Member Posts: 7

    I hate camping.... I do that aswell BUT! only when i get teabagged 24/7 from a person.. but i only camp him then ^^.

  • RATT
    RATT Member Posts: 33
    edited June 2018

    I'd personally would rather be tunneled than camped. At the least, you have an opportunity to loop, juke, and mind game the killer, versus going against a camping leatherface or revving Billy boy. Camping is a legitimate strategy so I'm not as bothered by it either. As long as 4 man SWF's exist, and the game still goes in their favor I can't really complain about camping, tunneling, juggling, etc. I mean, what else are you supposed to do when both exits are powered and you downed someone by a door? Kind of have to cycle the doors and camp a little.

  • ToxicTapp
    ToxicTapp Member Posts: 63

    Insidious Myers trying to camp to rank 1. Its an amazing strat. Rank 15 already and I've only gotten 2-3 0 kill games, I usually get 3-4k. You might have played against me ;)

  • Volfawott
    Volfawott Member Posts: 3,893
    Tunneling I count as the killer version of gen rush you're basically rushing through of your objectives to sacrifice. Also tunneling and gen rushing are both annoying for their respective parties to deal with.
    The same way I can't fault one side for doing their objective as quick as possible I can't really fault the other one.

    Of course this is when I'm not talking about mindless tunneling which if any killer does decide to do they're incredibly stupid. Mindless tunnelling is basically going above and beyond to try to get one person either it means the killer ignoring people and going on a long winded search for that one person even if you don't know where they are or wasting your time telling one person who's clearly going through infinite or extremely safe looping areas
  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @Itq said:
    Both sucks. People doesn't camp / tunnel because those are "viable strat" (while they are) they do it just because they want to be dicks against other players in their game. Same applies to flashlight / ds fuckbois

    I tunnel because it is the only strategy that can make me win the game.
    In a game where before the first chase has ended, there can be done 3 gens easily, I simply dont see another solution

    If you have any solution what to do against genrush and can actually suggest another strategy isntead of tunneling, please explain it to me. I would love not having to play like that

  • Mringasa
    Mringasa Member Posts: 980

    Tunneling and Camping both have their places at the higher Ranks. They do not belong below Rank 14'ish. Everytime I played against some sad Killer who was camping at Rank 17/18, I just shook my head because they learn nothing about chasing, downing, and when to hook (sometimes you need to leave that slug and go nail the person you just saw peeking around a corner). Not to mention the simple things like where Survivors like to hang out and how to properly patrol so you aren't wasting time.

    At the lower ranks, both of those should be banned imo. Obviously not going to happen, but if you need those type of tactics to win at that level of gameplay, rethink your strategy and learn the basics first. High Ranks? Hell yeah. You need every advantage you can get, and if you catch that first Survivor just as a couple gens are popping on you, fire up the grill and throw on some burger, it's campin' time.

  • Badboy_Bobby
    Badboy_Bobby Member Posts: 25
    The only people who defend camping are campers. If the exit gates aren't powered there should be no reason to camp
  • Volfawott
    Volfawott Member Posts: 3,893
    The only people who defend camping are campers. If the exit gates aren't powered there should be no reason to camp
    So what you're telling me is, if I hook someone and I could see other teammates practically hooks swarm to save them I have no reason to be there. Why should I leave? That's three or even four people not working on gens. What am I meant to do go out and find them mystic fifth survivor.

    I'm all fine with you guys hang around the hook that person is going to die and they are on a time limit ticking down and no progress is being done with escaping.

    So cool, call it what you want but I'm fine with just pulling up a chair waiting for the person to die and then going after the idiots having a tea party around the hook