I want an objective conversation, please.
So mostly I want to talk about one thing in particular.
Toxicity. But mostly why the most toxic people are the loudest in the community.
Like as a killer main I honestly see A LOT of toxic survivors. T-baggers, flashlight spammers, and the like. But I also see a lot of just plain survivors, people playing their role and doing the best they can against my assault.
And conversely, I've played enough survivor to see toxic killers. Tunnelers, campers and similar behavior. But they're not all that bad.
So why whenever I am here on the forum looking for conversation on current topics, the people posting 80% of what I see as posts or comments seem to always be crying either "Killer favoritism" or "Survivor favoritism."
I'm an objective person or at least I try to be. So I can see what each side is talking about when they speak about issues they perceive about the game and how it's being handled. But they gain nothing by being so toxic and pushy with their thoughts and ideals.
So thoughts?
Comments
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Sorry for the text wall.
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People are biased and unable to look at things objectively, and hence the perpetual whining and moaning. There are only three things a Player has to do to be a good sport:
- Don't cheat, either by hack or lag spike.
- Don't disconnect; if you start a game, finish it.
- Be humble in victory and gracious in defeat.
That's it. Those are the ONLY standards that should be applied to our fellow Players. All the other garbage is self-serving nonsense. The problem with a Forum like this is it is NOT the community. All the people on this Forum are but a drop in the bucket against the actual numbers of people who play. Most of them will never post here or even come read anything here. Places like this attract people who want to complain because they know they have a captive audience, or at least assume a sympathetic one. That is why there are so many HERE when you really don't run into near the same statistical number in the games themselves.
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People like to be terrible and justify it after the fact. Then when you challenge them, they get indignant about being called a liar and then further entrench themselves. That's toxicity for you.
The "Favoritism" complaints stem from the fact that this game was not balanced to begin with, but the players did not discover how to use that imbalance for a while. So as people get better and better at the game, the cracks become more and more unclear as people leveraging that imbalance becomes more widespread. BHVR patches things at the speed of soon(tm), and so when they finally fix one aspect on one side and don't to another, people view it as unfair. There's a skill re-adjustment period many people don't like going through, where they cannot rely on what they had before. That is what upsets them.
That and a lot of BHVR changes really don't seem to be well considered.
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I agree with pretty much everything you said. The only thing I have a problem with is how you said people can't be objective. Because, ironically, your comment proves you are an objective person or at least in this instance. So all in all well said.
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I like how you drew attention to the period of adjustment. As human beings I think we can all agree that change is scary so when we're forced to change, it definitely can sour a previously enjoyable experience.
A well-worded statement on people pushing against something they're naturally averse to but something that they have to deal with as it's unavoidable. And to be honest I think it's sort of idiotic to assume that the developers are going to try and fix all the issues every side has all at once it's just not possible. So when they do finally fix stuff everyone is obviously not going to be happy.
Well said.
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Its also hard to be gracious in defeat because people judge you by the killer your are playing now I wont lie I do the same but only to freddy players because his snares allow you to loop wrong but stil get a hit but anyway this is the best example I can remember I'm playing ghost face I get red forest it's a 4 man swf I can tell by the fact that they all trash talked even though it was a very close game and I got 1 kill and there was a ooo as well with 3 adrenaline and the holy ds saves the day
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Sorry but NONE of the examples you gave are toxic.
Are they sportsman like. Probably not. Are they all fun to face. No. Are they toxic? Absolutely not.
Really the only toxic thing in the game, is being ignorant in post game chat.
Maybe the tbag at the exit gates, but if someone spikes a football after a touchdown, is that not similar? Is a spike toxic?
Toxic and entitled are overused terms with no meaning left in this game.
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People come to forums to complain, mostly. So on average you get irrational arguments based in emotional response. The asymmetrical nature of the game only fuels the fire. My advice? Learn to recognize when a poster is being irrational and move on. Don't waste your time arguing or worrying about their opinions - you need to pick your battles, and you will never win using logic vs. emotion, at least not in their minds.
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Can I just point out that the only things you by name called not toxic are the things survivors do.... It's not about what you may or may not consider toxic, it's about why the people who call one thing toxic, but defend another toxic thing, are so vocal versus most people who just roll with the punches.
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I can understand it being hard to be gracious in defeat. I'd be lying if I said that whenever I have a game where I got close but struggled for one kill or didn't get any kills or what have you that I didn't get salty and talk crap about the enemy team. Although I play mostly on Xbox so I don't have a chance to message everyone in game chat like PC players do so it's mostly rambling to myself.
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Same xbox gang rise up granted I play without cross play due to pc huntress and nurse
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It's easy to form a bias, especially if you favor one side over the other.
I'm survivor main, mostly solo and, my friends aren't good so... swf is not much advantage, lol!
I think a part of the problem is the Survivor gameplay is split between skilled swf and random solos who cant communicate. This leaves a wide gap between giving the killer an actual challange or, a skilled killer rolling through solo's.
Also the developers slow response to OP builds and "meta" gaming. OP builds, perks, ect, dominate much of the game. They are often the most unfun things to play against and, feel oppressive to both sides.
They are concerned with constant visual updates, cosmetics and, new content. I understand those pay the bills but, the underlying problems often go overlooked for far too long.
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Fair point. I just like the thought that some people can have a conversation without arguing that what they say, think, feel, or experience is the end all be all for everyone.
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This is also really good perspective. I'm a killer main with some but Survivor experience but the discrepancy in the hours on one side versus the other is quite large.
You bring up good points about survive with friends and communication. I've faced survived with friends that are terrible and others that were great. Same with solos, I've faced some that have completely steam rolled me and some that have fallen like dominoes.
In terms of Park builds I can't say that I've ever felt a huge difference between an optimized perk build versus a non-optimized perk build but the highest rank that I usually touch is rank four and that tends to be right towards the end of the month as I'm not a super dedicated player.
Very well said and thank you for the input.
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I've found that the most toxic of players aren't complaining about legitimate issues. They are:
1) Frustrated with a game mechanic or portion of gameplay, but are unable to voice/type their thoughts. So they revert to base Internet behavior like "Yo mama" and similar, because they can't vocalize their frustrations.
2) Pissed off at themselves for screwing up. Much the same as #1, but in this instance they want to deny their poor performance and instead throw it on a second party because it makes them feel better. It's not my fault, it's yours.
3) They've been raised to believe that insulting someone online doesn't count because "Internet rules", or some form of this logic. At that point, anything is fair game be it racism, sexism, or your best "mom" joke. They just don't understand that it is unacceptable behavior because their parents didn't teach them very good manners. Can also be a learned behavior from spending years online and involved in social media culture.
4) They're just a piece of filth human. The rarest form, these people are just complete wastes of humanity. Their lives are so void and despair filled that they have to insult others and trash talk them to fill that empty space and relieve a bit of the despair they feel. If they don't do this, then they have to face the fact their life is utter garbage, and quite frankly they probably should do themselves the favor. This type is becoming more prevalent though because of social media outlets encouraging this behavior and the rise of Cancel Culture.
5) Because I really did spend time with your mother last night. In some instances, this might be a fact and not an insult. Always check your facts before dismissing a statement.
6) Because people have to be "cool" in front of their friends. Most toxicity I get comes from SWF teams (received and watching it in post-game). Trying to act like a hardass in front of your teammates is a good bonding experience. It does tend to backfire though when that Killer remembers you and gives you a good taste of karma (done it a few times even though I try to be a better person).
As far as game mechanics go though, if it's not cheating, it's not toxic. My opinion though. I hate being camped, tunneled and all the rest, but it is part of the game and there are times the Killer MUST do these actions if they want to achieve specific victory conditions. This is not toxic, it's part of the game the way BHVR made it. If they did not want this in the game, and ffs it's been chewed over so many times, it would not be there.
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To me toxicity in-game is:
Players that call you names and phrases to get you to say anything in end game chat or messages on console
everything else is trying to get you (as killer) to chase them till all gens are done or bad sportsmanship overall
And the same for killers: Facecamping (not proxy) refusing to pick up survivors when all 4 are slugged and hardcore tunneling (finding a survivor and killing that one before going onto the next)
Toxicity on the forums:
The community is so focused on what they don't like that they forget (or chose not to acknowledge) the other side exists (or have complaints of their own)
Survivor only players want killers weak (cause that's fun /s)
Killer only players want survivor perks weak (cause that's fun /s)
Players that play both sides (doesn't matter if it's 50/50 or 90/10) want things to be fair for the games sake
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You are wrong. I said none of OPs examples are toxic. Which included , their words, camping and tunneling.
Nothing anybody does in game is toxic to me. Including hitting a guy on the hook, killer strategies, survivor silliness. It's a game and people take it too seriously.
Don't cheat, and don't message stupid #########. Then play how you would want to verse and enjoy the game.
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I think people find it difficult to really reflect on their own gameplay and how it affects others in the game. It's much, much easier to find other problems - as Survivor it could be that other survivors not playing well, the Killer is playing unfair, the Killer's powers are too strong. As Killer, it could be that the Survivors perks are unfair, they're playing as a SWF group, they were being toxic, etc. There's always something you can blame other than yourself.
End of the day, the game has two aspects that ramp up toxic behaviour; first, it's player verus player. When you're pitted against someone, there comes an element of competitiveness. There's winning and losing at stake. And secondly, it's a team game. Meaning you have to rely on other players assisting you and doing their part in order to win. If you feel like your opponent has an advantage that costs you a game you were playing well, you'll act toxic. If you feel your allies aren't helping you enough and cost you the match, you'll act toxic. And if you feel like you have an advantage and want to rub it in someone's face, you can act toxic. It's a 'nature of the beast' kind of problem, which isn't helped by players who only play one side and don't get a balanced idea of how each side plays/works.
Not even going into the unspoken rules and meta of the game cos that would take a whole lot of writing haha. But basically, I think it comes down to that; Player verus Player encourages competitiveness, team based play means you can lose a game while "doing nothing wrong", a lack of understanding when it comes to how the other side plays the game makes it very easy to pass any blame or errors off on other players in the match.
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So your question is why are they toxic?
Typically because they only play one side and have a very skewed perspective.
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I only play killer sometimes when I have to do a daily or to understand how something works. So my opinion will be survivor mostly. This last update has changed the game drastically. I'm finding it harder to achieve my ranks (I don't stress about it). I don't mind working for it, that's part of the fun. There are several things that are seriously broken and need to be fixed. The pallets for one, if they're too close or something you can't drop it? Ummm what's the point then? The tunneling and toxicity has gotten ridiculous. You can't control that, but it does ruin gameplay in my opinion and something should be done. It seems like a typical strategy to tunnel a survivor to change the amount and then play semi normal. The Unbroken emblem.... the description is right there. I fight hard, get away and end up being the last captured and die instantly on my first hook. I don't get anything for unbroken.... Which the tool tip says otherwise. Hitboxes seem to have been an issue always and now they're worse. I played killer to see, it's ridiculous what I was able to do. I did let everyone go most of the time but I pushed it to see what I could do. I shouldn't have gotten the 4K.
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