NOED Discussion
I know, I know another Noed topic...
I would like to start a civil discussion about this perk.
Majority of the DBD community know this perk is really unhealthy for the game for the following reasons:
-it is the only hex perk which lit up at the endgame (but why?..)
-it has a built in old undying with full value
-it has the devour's first hit surprise (no warning like Rancor)
-user gain unlimited exposed status effect until the totem is found
-user gain 1 stack PWYF
The perk is NOT Overpowered by any means, it's core issue is it rewards the user for bad gameplay. Hex perks should be high RISK high reward perks, but theres next to no risk bringing this perk.
Why? Because the survivors have to cleanse not just one totem but ALL OF THEM (built in undying). There is no difference between cleansing 4 totems out of 5 or not cleasing at all, so this "just do bones" argument is just ridiculous and you know it.
People fear and respect Devour Hope for a good reason, but anyone who uses Noed... well let's just say it's a Badge of Being Bad.
Maybe it's just me, but in red ranks when I go againts a killer who plays like a bot, without any mindgame, any tactics, just follow people like a zombie, I'm certain that person is a noed gamer.
This perk plagues low ranks too, because the players doesn't need to unlock certain killers to use it, it's base kit perk.
So that being sad I just wanted to shed some light on this issue. Devs please consider reworking this god awful perk with the next DS and OoO change, so we can get closer to even more balanced/healthy game.
Guys please share your opinion on this matter, I would like to hear it.
Comments
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I keep seeing survivor mains spout "It rewards the user for bad game play" all the time, but that isn't the truth. The truth is it punishes survivors for bad game play. If the killer was bad, your team should have had no trouble cleansing dull totems. They're usually near gens and not overly difficult to spot. Survivor is mainly a team role with the option to be selfish and play solo. One player isn't meant to cleanse all the totems, everyone is. The devs have even implemented perks in order to promote totem cleansing- Detective's Hunch, Small Game and Inner Strength.
The perk is not god-awful, the majority of survivors are.
If the survivors were good, they would have no trouble taking turns looping the killer while their teammates work on generators. Strong perks in the game are a good thing, it breaks up the monotony of the matches. I rarely ever even see NOED in most of my games. Even when it does come up, it is cleansed within 30 seconds unless my team was bad.
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I'm not a Main. I play dbd at rank 1 both killer and soloq survivor. Theres no telling your soloq teammates cleansing totems or not. I just simply confused why would the survivors have to cleanse 5 totems for a single hex perk, why isn't it lit up from the beggining just like the rest?
I agree, the majority of the survivors are bad,but this has nothing to do with noed. Let's be real here the most efficient players don't give a damn about dull totems. So i just don't understand your argument, if the surviovors are bad they won't finish the gens anyway.
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I agree, this problem do falls in the soloq QOL category aswell.
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Noed literally has the worst possible requirement in the game, meaning the killer has to do there best with only 3 perks. The reward is for the failure of 4 survivors to find totems and the risk/gamble that the perk even activates. Saying it is unlimited is an overstatement as the gates don't take that long to open and egc starts the moment everyone can leave. Totems should be hard to find, something the devs have not reached yet.
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I understand that counter-argument in the case of a swf, but what about solos? Are we all supposed to go around the whole map once or twice to make sure each totem has been cleansed?
Obviously NoeD is a rare perk anyways, but I just thought I'd give a counter arguement to your counter arguement.
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If you want to mindlessly hold M1 on gens and do nothing more, that's on you. NoED is a mediocre perk that can be disabled before it activates. And survivors don't complain about DH because it never came into play cause it spawns right before a gen or up in a hill
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It's the same reason why killer isn't warned about DS or BT. It's to stop tunneling/gen rushing.
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So here’s an idea for NOED
I think it needs a buff and a nerf to be solvent.
Buff: The killer can see the aura of all survivors within 30 meters. (This number can be adjusted up or down guys)
Nerf: Once the killer downs a survivor, the killer has only 30 seconds before NOED extinguishes itself. However, if the killer locates and downs another survivor in that 30 seconds, the timer resets to 30 seconds. This continues until the timer runs out. Hooking a downed survivor also resets the timer to 30 seconds.
In this way, it is not an infinite devour hope. It can be outlasted or destroyed. It also does not reward a bad killer because at best a bad killer downs only one person. If they are camping a hook, a survivor can force a hit, but not unhook the camped survivor, in this way, NOED stops a camper. It’s still very strong, but what say you?
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I see what you're saying but I feel like NoeD should'nt be that much of a problem.
- It doesn't have a built in old undying. Sure if you want to prevent it and cleanse all 5 dull totems prematurely but you shouldn't need to.
- If its only for bad players then it wouldn't be at all effective. Once the survivors find out NoeD has been activated they can all spread out to search for it remembering where the totems were or use perks like small game. Once its knocked out they should be easily able to rescue their teammate from the bad killer.
- This can be versatile with an endgame build like Noed, Remember me, blood warden, and undying. This perk doesn't need to be a crutch but can also be a powerful tool. Some say its toxic running an endgame build but in my opinion its the opposite. The games not over until everyones left the trial either through escaping or sacrificing. Also perks like bloodwarden and NoeD are the opposite of toxic. They would never work if survivors left immediately instead of t-bagging in the exit gates. The games not over until you escape. As a killer its my job to kill you all and as long as your still in the game I can use anything I want that the game gives me to accomplish that objective
This is just my opinion on how this perk isn't just a crutch for bad people but an actual perk that can be used strategically since I feel too many survivor feel like the game is over once all 5 gens are done and the killer should just give up and be humiliated with flashlight clicks and t-bags instead of hunting them down till the very end
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Guys stop this whataboutism, Ds and OoO getting changed aswell and I'm really happy about it. My goal is to have a balanced game not this and that side getting stronger.
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Well, the game is literally designed for the Killer to win chases. These perks merely prolong the inevitable.
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I'm not talking about whataboutism. If you read what I wrote it's the same reasoning. You can't always ignore the context of what's happening if it's actually relevant to the discussion. I'm equally as tired of People shouting whataboutism all the time. Especially when it doesn't make sense to.
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I see. If there is an obsession in the game, it's enough for DS warning. BT saves are obvious aswell. For the matter of genrush... well yeah thats a whole another of gen speed problem and can be go hand in hand with Noed.
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I like NOED happening when I'm a survivor, it makes for an exciting endgame. Trying to find the totem or pull off a risky save spices things up.
As killer I recently started running it, but only after I have a match against OoO survivors (lately this has been happening more frequently). I won't bring any gen defense perks and just see how it plays out. I get salt sometimes, but oh well, it's just a game.
Some players give NOED users crap, but just ignore the meta powerful perks that killers go against. Just because someone brings it doesn't mean they are a bad player.
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Survivors being bad has everything to do with NOED. You don't have to do all 5 totems. You can wait until the 5th gen is completed and then look for the lit totem. The reason why the totem isn't lit up is because it has an activation requirement. It's not like Devour Hope where it has to be active in order to acquire tokens.
Having bad teammates isn't a reason to gut a perfectly counter-able perk. Just like killers are not entitled to easy games and have to keep pressure up throughout the match, survivors need to do the same, and cleansing totems is part of it. If you want to use the excuse of having bad teammates that you can't rely on, then you can just hide and open the door and leave. Survivors would then finally learn how to start cleansing totems.
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If you want to have a civil discussion, don't start it by stating a falsehood. No, the overwhelming majority of the community do not think NOED is bad for the game. As another poster stated, it does not reward the Killer for bad play, but rather punishes the Survivors for bad play. NOED is the most easily countered Insta-Down option in the game. All it requires is the Survivors to treat Totems as the objectives they are in fact.
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Yes, your whole team is responsible for finding totems. There is a reason why the broken bones remain after a totem is cleansed, so you can keep track of them.
If that is too much, your team can always ignore totems until the fifth gen pops and then you can hunt for the lit totem.
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I would disagree with you on a couple things.
First i really hate it when people use the phrase it rewards bad gameplay, it doesn't, in order to use NOED you still have to chase and get hits. Does infinite tier 3 myers reward bad gameplay, he can function the exact same way, except there is no cleansing his power?
The idea that NOED has no risk attached to it is also wrong. Even though it almost never happens survivors can cleanse all the totems, or find and cleanse it once it activates, which can actually be better if you remember where you saw totems that you didnt cleanse. There is also the risk that if the survivors aren't playing altruisticaly that you will only get one down and sacrifice with it anyways. There is also the fact that you are playing the game with only 3 perks up until that point. There is a definite difference between the effectiveness of NOED and the number of survivors remaining when it kicks in, 2 survivors very effective, 4 survivors not so much.
Last you need to consider the perks it counters on the other side. There are many examples of perks that mirror or are direct counters to each other, Stridor-Iron will, Franklins-Items, lightborn-flashlights, aura reading-distortion/off the record, and lots more. In the case of Noed, it counters 2 perks, Adrenaline and Hope. So any changes that happen with NOED would need to be reflected in those perks as well.
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Falsehood? Everytime I see Noed in play, if its on stream or other comments on the internet the reaction is almost always the same..an eyeroll or laugh. Second, I don't think its the most easily counterable one shot option, especially indoor maps. Haunted grounds much much more counterable by hiding. There's a reason why decent killers never use this perk,they dont need it because they are confindent in their skills to prevent survivors to finish all the gen. Lastly (its a bit off topic), you never wondered why was it overused in Hexy's turnament ?
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A couple of things:
- Social Media is NOT the community. All the people who come here or bother to post videos is a tiny minority compared to the total number of players. Most never come here nor care.
- If you read the previous posts on NOED you will find there are TONS of people who feel the Perk is fine. They will explain why it is fine. They are not of the opinion you are and it is not appropriate you should assume you speak for the overwhelming majority of the community.
- I and others have posted AT LENGTH on how you counter this Perk and why it is NOT all that and a bag of chips. Do you want me to do it again?
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Okey.
1. People who play this game AND on DBD social media is the part of the community, sure not as involved like people on forum, but they still the part of it.
2.And I made my statement why IMO isn't fine. Never said I represent the majority... so talking about falsehoods.
3.Fully understand what to do when Noed pops up.
So before you try to being passive agressive again, I remind you:
In this topic I shared my thoughts, 1.3k hours experience and others reaction I saw. Not agreed with me? Sure, no problem. But don't get mad if I don't agree with another topic.
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But there's the difference. It acts as a warning not that the killer knows that the survivor has DS or BT for sure. The killer is forced to just assume that the survivor has it and try to play around it. The devs designed noed as a hex perk to make totems more important as a secondary objective, regardless of if the killer has it or not.
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I mean if that's the case then make your choice is unhealthy because it rewards the killer for good play and punishes the survivor for saving their teammates
and bbq is also unhealthy because it cut search time down and punishes those who are doing anything far away
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MYC is healthy because it encourages the killer to not tunnel and go after the rescuer. At least, that's what I think the devs thought when designing it. I personally am not a fan of it because unlike NOED, it has no counter other than not unhooking your teammate.
BBQ is rewarding the killer for chasing the survivor, hitting them twice, picking them up, walking to the hook and hooking them. It collectively punishes the survivors for losing a chase. It also help survivors by encouraging the killer to not camp.
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I know I'm just saying when they put it like that many perks can be unhealthy
Like x perk has y requirement it dose too much or there's no"counter" so its unhealthy when it boils down to that many perks can be unhealthy then
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You said, and I quote, "Majority of the DBD community know this perk is really unhealthy for the game..." so please don't try to pretend you didn't just try to speak for the majority. Of course you did. I'm not trying to be passive aggressive. I'm a very direct fellow. I'm telling you your entire OP is based on assumptions and biases that do not hold up to scrutiny. But let me give you a little anecdote that you can check yourself.
When Blight was released and Undying hit the ground running, EVERYONE was trying out Ruin + Undying. There was a MASSIVE drop in the number of posts where people complained about NOED. Why pray tell? It is because Survivors started doing Bones like crazy. Ruin + Undying caused them to have to do Bones so they could complete the ONLY objective they ever seem to care about. Nobody cared about or much talked about NOED during that period because NOED was getting cleansed out of existence so fast the Killer's heads were spinning.
Everyone killed every dull Totem they spotted or hunted down to prevent Undying from transferring Ruin. And the side-effect of that was that NOED never got to go off. Many Killers just stopped bothering to put it in because it was a bad gamble. Then as the popularity of Ruin + Undying started to taper off, and rumor hit that Undying was going to change anyway, NOED started showing back up in posts again. That is because Survivors stopped caring much about Totems.
One will hope, with the ferocity of Devour Hope + Undying being used in the last few days, that Survivors will, once again, remember the OTHER objective they are supposed to work on and do those darn Bones. There is nothing wrong with NOED. Again, I can (if you are serious about wanting a thorough, civil conversation about this topic) repost an essay I wrote on why NOED isn't a big deal, why there are way worse Insta-downs, why it is all perception over reality, and HOW you can easily avoid it. Would you like me to do so?
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Please stop this man, it's getting old. Stop rushing gens for one minute and do the totems. Pretty much every survivor meta perk "rewards bad gameplay."
SB - "you caught me lacking, zoooooom, I'm gone"
BT - Killer coming? I'll unhook you anyways because you have immunity.
Adrenaline - Unhook me so I can get a free health state and burst of speed.
Dead Hard - Oh I'm injured? Let me use these immune frames to lunge forward through bear traps and hits.
DS - I was just hooked but the killer can't do anything because I'll hit him and make him drop me.
Unbreakable - Yeah, I got downed but I can get right back up tho.
And so on...
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I agree theres always a risk bringing a hex perk, but with Noed the risk is much much lower in my opinion. The problem is that I fail to understand, why is that for a SINGLE hex perk u have to do all 5 totems, but for the rest u just have to find the right one. If the perk would lit up from the very start, nobody would complain about it.
Devour, Ruin, etc without undying can be cleansed within 15 sec the start of the game and thats why high risk. Of course theres a whole game before your as survivor to cleanse all five, but no one, NO ONE, with the right mind will do multiple circles around the map just to make sure all totems were cleansed before the last gen pops.
If Noed pops up just leave or with still 3-4 survivors remaining try to find that 1 pesky totem. That's counter only in the endgame after it activates. I think the only two thing really counters noed: Maps with addon, which is finite and detective's, which overshadows Small Game. Funny enough, luck has the most impact when talking about risks and countering totems.
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I know you fail to understand; that is crystal clear. Totems are OBJECTIVES. The DEV want you to do them. They exist to slow down and balance Generator speeds, i.e. the Gen-Rush. Consider the following:
- NOED is a general Killer Perk, i.e. anyone can get it.
- NOED is one of the first Perks the Blood Web THROWS at you.
- NOED can only be stopped by the Survivors going after ALL the Totems.
It is almost as if the DEV specifically created the Perk as a soft push for Survivors to do Bones. They make it a gamble for the Survivors NOT to do them, just like it is a gamble for Killers to put in Hex Perks. You can gamble that the Killer will not take it and save all time for faster Generators, or you can hedge your bet and do Bones too. It will either pay off big or hurt really bad. Do you see my point.
NOED is there because the DEV want it there. They don't like to screw with agency, i.e. your choices. They could MAKE you do Bones by making NOED base kit if they wanted, but they prefer not to be that heavy-handed. They created this dilemma on purpose.
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There is a large consensus among both survivors and killers that NOED needs an adjustment of some sort. It seems a smaller minority think it is just fine.
The complaint of having to search an entire map when totems have not been cleansed is legitimate. You don’t always have 4 people looking. It is not bad play to leave totems uncleansed when only one perk has a legitimate effect on leaving them.
NOED has a stigma for rewarding bad play by killers. This is much more true than the opposite, punishing survivors for bad play. That is ridiculous. Survivors run circles around a killer, and only when he has a one hit and a speed boost can he have a fighting chance. That’s not endgame strategy, it’s pathetic.
The perk needs some adjustment. It needs to take into account the trade of 5 totems to 1 perk that no other hex has.
So I suggest the changes from my last comment, or this single change that follows:
NOED lights all totems, and replaces any already lit totems with itself. If any lit totem is cleansed, NOED disappears.
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Ruin + old Undying sitation were different, becasue survivors got the notification and saw Ruin in action as soon as tapped the gen, so of course people hunted totems, its logical. Noed not up from the very start, there is no reason going out of your way to do bones before gens. I personally do dull totems when i see one but refuse to circle around the map if there is no ruin or any other hex active, It' not efficient gameplay, and it is only secondary objective not main, That's why i dont understand people call survivors bad when they doing their Main objective over the secondary.
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"It rewards the user for bad game play"
DS
Unbreakable
DH
BT
etc
I'm sick of hearing that. "Those are are anti-tunneling perks!" NOED is an anti gen rushing perk. Do bones
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No, it isn't different. It is only different because you DON'T WANT to do Totems unless you have to do them. Survivors should be doing them EVERY match, period. You don't need a notification. However, you can choose not to do them. Clearly it has bitten you on the rear enough times that you came here to try to get it changed OUTSIDE the game rather than simply DOING the darn Bones in the match. Clearly it has been proven that the Bones CAN be done. Survivors simply lack the dedication or will to do them. That is on them, NOT NOED.
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I said i do it when i see one, but wont running around like a headless chicken finding dull totems, NOT efficient. Tell me, you do every bones in every single game by yourself and if not u make sure that every totem were cleansed?
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This again? Doing your main objective fast should be punishable? Same as downing/hooking DIFFERENT survivors fast within 1 minute and then eating the 59 sec current DS from the first hooked?
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Yes. When I play Survivor (and I mostly play Solo) I kill every Totem I see, lit or unlit. As the game progresses toward the last Generators coming up, I start putting more and more energy into looking for any Totems left. You can tell when another Survivor has killed one because of the leftover debris. You can literally count. You also know what lit ones have been destroyed without even seeing the debris for those because of the audible. Thus, if a Survivor wants to know how many Bones are left, they can keep track.
On that same note, let's say all the Generators go up before all the Bones are done and NOED is in play. NOTHING prevents you from still tracking down the now lit Totem and just turning it off. Most of the time the Killer is making a beeline for the gates which gives people hunting Bones a lot more freedom to find it. I played a game earlier today where I was downed by a Killer due to NOED going for a gate, and one of my fellow Survivors found it, cleansed it, and then came and pulled me off the hook. You gotta love people who play David, they always have the biggest stones. My point is that is not uncommon. I've done it many times myself.
If you want to get stung less by NOED you have to factor Bones in; that is the long and the short of it. You can gamble or you can simply do them. There are only five Totems, and four Survivors. Every Survivor (and I mean EVERY Survivor) spots between 1-3 Totems simply moving about the map in a match. It happens EVERY time. If each Survivor sets aside the short amount of time to cleanse at least 1-2 of these, NOED is pretty much a moot issue. Just cut into that wasted time self-caring in corners or urban evasion squatting around the map and you will find you have all the precious seconds you need to kill Totems.
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The bones are there. Do em or get NOED
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I’m new to the game but I really don’t see an issue with the perk. If the killer has someone on hook after all the gens are done and you haven’t managed to get rid of all the totems, don’t have DS, borrowed time, soul guard, DH, sprint burst etc etc, and therefore can’t effectively work as a team to save them without risking dying too, then fair play.
What’s with all the handholding in this game? Browsing through the forums all I see is nerf this, nerf that, I don’t like this please change it, I don’t like that please change it. In the majority of cases, even as a new player, I can see that these things are fine and/or have counter play.
NOED for example. If you’re the last guy, your team didn’t manage to get all the totems down by this very late point in the match, and you get caught out looking for hatch or heading for the wrong exit gate, fair play to the killer. I see no issue here whatsoever.
Or if you’re the last two survivors, the killer manages to get one of you on hook and you either have to abandon them or give your life for theirs. Fair play to the killer.
Or the first scenario I mentioned. Full team, one on hook, haven’t been able to find all the totems by this point in the game and still can’t find the last xyz before hook stage progresses or struggle phase ends, and can’t use teamwork or second chance perks to save them even if the killer is camping the hook. Fair play to the killer. He got a kill at the very end. Not a big deal. You still won. Move onto the next game.
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The perk is NOT Overpowered by any means, it's core issue is it rewards the user for bad gameplay. Hex perks should be high RISK high reward perks, but theres next to no risk bringing this perk.I mean... what would you call having to play with a dead perk for the whole game, for it only to matter at the very end of the game?
Sounds like a standard case of High Risk High reward to me.
There's also a point that every love to ignore when it comes to that particular perk : It's the only one right now (since blood warden still doesn't activate when the gate are powered rather than open) that actually give you any advantage during that last part of the game.
All the gen related perks? Worthless.
All the information perks that are often related to gens? Worthless.
Delaying perks? Pointless.
You dont have ANYTHING else to let you deal with a simple case of "I have a hooked target, the door are powered and I want to make sure I can secure that hook". Unless you are someone with a very particular ability, there's literally NOTHING you can do to prevent 2 or 3 other survivors to unhook someone right infront of you during the end game because in the overwhelming majority of the cases by the time you land 2 hits on someone, you'll have more than likely run across the entire map and reached the gate.
Hell, if you have borrowed time and deadhard or just DS for the hooked (which the overwhelming majority of high rank player have) you can almost always pull off a solo that is almost impossible to counter for the killer unless the 2 doors are literally at the exact opposite of the map.
I'll be totally fine with a removal of noed if the end game was a bit more fair, and doing so is extremely simple : Just make the door lever regress at a 100% speed (ie the same speed than it takes to activate them) when not worked on, that way the survivor wanting to rescute a late hook will have to do it knowing they'll have to open a gate in its entirety after that, or will have to have someone stay at the gate to keep it at 99%.
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Well put, Noed is basically the only "second chance" perk the killer have.
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Devs will never give up the gambling part of the game, deal with it.
They like and they will keep the inconsistency on purpose, no matter how/what you and your opponents doing.
Thats how the game was built, the whole system logic is based around the built in randomity.
Thats why they always called the game asymmetrical.
Thats how they are trying to stay to their imagination as close as possible.
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NOED isn't unbalanced but is unfun to play against. Doing totems or not in solo/swf isn't indicative of skill. I could make huge plays and run the killer much longer than they can afford to, to get downed to NOED and be camped with no chance of getting off the hook unless the team finds the random totem spawn in time.
I believe this perk is dated like old ruin was. Strong against lesser skilled survivors but almost useless at high level.
The most anticlimatic experiences I've had in this game have mostly involved this perk NOED. I would love to see a compromise that rewards a good killer and not a bad killer. The token system is my favourite compromise.
Just my two cents.
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With Undying gone, survivors already moved to the next perk that punishes survivors for just doing gens.
I guess nothing will be enough until the game is a pure gen repair simulator.
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In solo queue, the latter is definitely better than the former option, although I do think it would be possible to remove it if there was some sort of totem counter (even if it was attached to small game)
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Very well said, any decent survivor team worth their salt runs at least one totem tracking perk, even in solos you should always slot in detectives hunch and a map
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Besides, totems are bloodpoints and everyone likes those dont they?
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NOED is noob friendly alot of people starting the game use it. Because when they start the game they don't know about mind games, hiding the red light, chasing in general etc. So imo NOED is fine. If you're rushing gens and the game is over under 6 minutes and get hit with noed its your fault for not doing totems. I love hearing every excuse people give for not doing them "It takes too long or finding them is hard". If you really hate it that much bring perks or a map.
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A terrible meme I made just for these discussions
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I love your terrible meme.
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I disagree with the idea of a totem counter that freely gives survivors information. Uncertainty of the amount of totems is a strength for hex perks and they really don't need nerfs, no matter how little. If anything, I read an idea on the forums that can work. Devs can implement a candelabrum in the basement. Every time a hex is cleansed, one of the candles go out, this way, survivors can work for the information and don't have to bring in a perk.
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