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The most annoying statement for survivor imo (not hating on anyone) and the aftermath of the DS nerf
"Make DS base kit for survivors" Making DS base kit is just another band-aid fix to tunneling. Just look at where we are now.
The whole reason DS even exists and does what it does is because of tunneling. Due to how the game worked back then (and still now for the most part), killers had to tunnel to gain the upper hand on the survivor team because it was the only way they could manage; it was a band-aid fix for tunneling but tunneling was seen as very unfun for survivors. Because the devs have for so long ignored the core issue of tunneling being so effective, it has become a huge problem that will need a substantial amount of work to redesign and balance.
With the upcoming DS nerf, you can bet that survivors will drop it out of their kits and replace it with BT (most likely if they already didn't have that) as a replacement. I think that this will obviously encourage killers to tunnel which is effective and not exactly unfair, but it will definitely make the game more unfun for survivors. The devs will HAVE to do something about this or the player base will decrease by a large margin.
I swear, a patch full of health changes to the game would help so much. And no, the few handful of balance changes we get every 3-6 months do not count. I mean a patch where the devs work really hard on to fix bugs that have been around for a long time (the silent survivor bug and nurse in general), buff killers that need them, and maybe even rework Haddonfield (seriously, I hate this map with a passion). Several other people have said the same thing I am saying several times. I swear this game is like a malnourished stray dog. It could be so cute and cuddly, but just needs love and care.
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Agreed, wish they would just hold off on ONE killer update and focus that energy on fixing the game and make it a healthy state. Don't think anyone would be super upset about it considering they have over 20 killers to play in the meantime
but no instead they would rather produce more bugs and release broken killers
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I still cant understand why you should drop ds after the nerf. I use ds since the first rework and i used it like a anti-tunneling perk. When the killer didnt tunnel me, i didnt force it. And with that mindset it was really rare that the new deactivation conditions would have hurt me. But ds was still a valuable perk for me. I did escape many time bc of it. So i will never switch it.
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Survivors running DS are likely running BT and UB.
The point of the DS change is due to the fact that DS right now is used as an offensive tool for extremely aggressive playmaking, not as an anti-tunnel tool. An unhooked survivor looking to play optimally will be able to either harass the killer with the knowledge that they'll either be slugged long enough to use UB to negate the slugging, or make a risky unhook play and essentially never lose a hook state for it.
Right now, the best move a Killer can make is ignore the unhooked survivor entirely, in which case they, assuming a 20s rotation time, can do half of a gen in complete safety. If slugged, the Killer probably loses the unhooker in chase, and he cannot pick up the DS unhooked person - if they have UB, it is a free down for the survivor. At worst, the Killer picks the survivor up, and gives the other survivors 15 collective seconds of safety AND loses the unhooked survivor. He probably has to spend 20 or so seconds either catching up to or finding another survivor. It's ridiculous when you think that it can happen four times. So right now, DS when used correctly and aggressively, is a free down state for survivors AT WORST, and if the Killer ignores them, they get half a gen. That's pretty powerful.
The change will make it so DS is no longer an offensive tool. You can't run into the killer's face after being unhooked and do a gen / unhook with wild abandon. If you're actually being tunneled, as in you get unhooked and the killer keeps chasing you, DS serves its purpose perfectly. If you start doing a gen after being unhooked, you don't need to be protected. You're choosing to play injured and greedily, and the Killer should be able to slap you for that instead of just letting you do half a gen for free because the stupid perk will punish them for punishing your greed.
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Well the problem i have with DS right now is that it is played as a way to tease the killer into getting stun. But the upcoming change is making the perk super weak against it's first purpose : anti-tunnel.
I mean if a survivor get tunneled right away off the hook, even after 60 sec of chase, the perk deactivate which is not long at all in a chase ! I think the best way would be that if the survivor is in chase the countdown of DS should stop until the survivor escaped. Many perks works the same way : Stake Out, Diversion, Lucky Break. Those perks triggers depending on a situation, soit would pretty easy to add a condition to DS aswell.
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Whenever killers complained about DS, the answer of survivor mains was: "just don´t tunnel!"
Now that the perk will prevent exactly this and only this, the same survivors complain that the perk is useless.
Hypocrisy at its best.
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That's what the OP advocated for. Fixing tunneling by implementing alternative, better strategies. Make 12 hook games significantly more viable and much more rewarding. Make tunneling and camping less viable and less rewarding and no an emblem penalty doesn't do anything. Balance out weaker killers so they can be on-par with stronger ones, balance out survivor perks so the weaker ones and stronger ones are closer in power, the whole shebang. That's literally what op wanted from reading their post.
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Well the perk will be useless against tunnel. I love that working on a gen or unhooking someone else or healing yourself cancel the perk but getting heal shouldn't for example.
Even with the current DS there are tunneling killers but even now DS is not an anti-tunnel perk. It just need to have a cooldown of 60 sec stopping if the survivor is getting chased, so it truly punish tunnelers and not killer who just downed an other survivor and get to down the DS user in less than 60 sec (which is the main complain killer have right now, getting called tunneler when they just downed an two survivor in less than 60 sec...basically for doing their job)
Also i wonder if by healing self mending is take into count ? coz if yes then Legion is about to get played even more just so you can Frenzy and deactivate survivor's DS then tunnel them.
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Getting healed by another survivor doesn't cancel ds.
If you're self caring by the hook then that's a you problem when they return and honestly one of the dumbest moves you can do.
Mending is not a healing action and so won't be taken into account. If it was, it'd be affected by Botany Knowledge and Desperate Measures, similar to how Snap Out Of It and Waking Up used to be (and subsequently were revealed with Nurse's lol)
Also, the timer for DS doesn't matter now. They could legitimately make it 10 minutes and it wouldn't make a lick of difference due to it deactivating as soon as someone progresses the game. 60 seconds isn't enough to properly stop tunneling and it should honestly be infewsed to like, 180 at minimum because if you get, say, the new Game map and drop every pallet your chase will last well beyond 60 seconds.
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No not right now but it will, at least that what the WIP of the DS changes showed.
Also i would like that you don't call me dumb and stay civil. µAs i didn't show any direspect to you i would gladly ask for the same respect. Thank you ^^
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That's what I'm talking about. Getting healed by another survivor will not remove your ds timer, as confirmed by the devs on twitter.
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Totally agree but 180 would be way overkill don´t you think? :D
And yeah if your routing is good you can easily extend the chase for 5-6 minutes on new Gideon, it´s hillarious haha
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Not really. What are they gonna do for those 3 minutes? They can't progress the game in the slightest without losing their perk.
######### it, make it 20 minutes long. At tier 1. And the timer doesn't decrease when in the dying state. It doesn't matter because they cannot progress the game at all with their perk active and if they spend 20 minutes doing absolutely nothing you've literally already won the match.
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Well i remember seeing the WIP on stream saying it would be removed by getting heal.
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Mhh the timer needs to have a limit, otherwise you are guaranteed an escape during endgame no matter what if you get unhooked with a gate open or hatch spawning close after haha
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At which point, like with a bt save, you could chase the unhooker. Alternatively if the team didn't open the gates and only 99'ed them the recently unhooked survivor opens the gates their ds is gone.
Or the devs could implement some other measure to ensure that it doesn't activate in endgame.
However during the main portion of the match it quite literally doesn't matter how long the ds timer is. If you don't tunnel they can't use it.
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It says, and I quote, "Healing". On twitter this was confirmed to mean "healing yourself and others". It only triggers on actions you perform. If other survivors heal you, it does not deactivate.
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Yeah I agree with the main portion of the match thingy but making it any longer than 60s would be suuuper busted in endgame scenarios, like old MoM levels of busted :D
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Nothing will reach old MOM level of busted, rather thankf-
Actually no Yakuyoke/MDR Spirit does come pretty close. Aside from that, nothing will ever reach old MOM level of busted, incredibly thankfully.
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oh my apologies then. ^^
then i guess the rework is ok but still make lack the power to make it an anti-tunnel perk. I feel like as solo survivor i never have enough perks slots to have a chance ahah (Iron Will + WoO + Kindred + DS)
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Then bring DS as it is the solution to tunnelling.
I really don't see the point of what you are trying to say.
You are not being tunnelled if you are happily sitting on a generator are you?
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I suspect you will be right for the first week of its change until survivors realise there are plenty of anti tunnel perks that whilst not as good as old ds can still do phenominally. Lucky break, kindred and iron will the list goes on. Unlike ds you need to think and come up with a plan to slip away.
Ds was and still is a broken concept because invulnerbility/extra health states are inherently broken in a time trial based game espicially when its clause for activation is you as a survivor losing to a killer in an earlier chase.
Saves should be complex affairs ones with risk and actual thought bt is a terrible response to deal with tunneling you need to obscure the survivors position make it hard to chase or at the very least take a hit to buy them enough time to reach the strong loops. Bt is for camping/desperate plays.
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about Lucky Break wasn't it suppose to get buffed to only restart the countdown when you healed up ? coz right now it's a meh perk as 3 minutes isn't really that long.
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I really don't think that many people will just drop DS. Maybe some people do and especially right after the patch, but a handful of no obsession matches that play out in the way they sometimes do will probably make them change their mind.
I do agree there's a lot of wacky issues that should be looked at though, and even if it's not a "health chapter" which I kinda doubt will happen, even pledging to hunt down and fix some of those issues in midchapter patches or something would be fantastic.
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yeah that is the thing : there always should be an obsession. No matter the perks brought into the game.
To me it makes sense, kinda like the fact that devs added hatchets in every lockers and made hooks based on maps not on which killer is in the game : so that you don't know what you are playing against, as killer or survivor.
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True, balancing killers and somehow changing the game a bit to make 12 hooking survivors or spreading out the damage would make the game more fun for both sides and give killers a good chance to kill the survivors on strong maps.
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Disagree with you on lucky break, iron will, and kindred as full-on anti-tunnel perks. They are just perks that in general that help you evade the killer, but that doesn't make them anti-tunnel perks specifically.
BT though was a camping/tunneling fix though for sure, and I think it should be changed.
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I highly doubt you come across soul guard that often, and also how is corrupt a crutch perk?
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Anti tunnel perk design should be about robbing/mitigating the killer's ability to track a survivor post unhook, not grant them more health states and stuns. Your view of anti tunnel perk design creates perk design templates like current ds which allows for 60 seconds to push objectives at little to no risk which unsurprisingly is prone to exploitation and is broken. Anyway these perks create scenarios where your decisions as survivor and have no lose condition. Anti tunnel should be perks that mess with the killers tracking senses so the injured survivor can try and evade them. Its the logic of anti tunnel perks needing to add health states and force the killer into lose lose situations that enable design like ds.
The point of lucky break is to prevent tunneling by allowing you to sneak out of a killers patrolled zone. You can still be punished for messing up and getting caught post unhook This is good anti tunnel design. End game wise I do believe bt is needed It has a purpose if a little to strong in some other areas. What would you suggest that would be anti tunnel that isn't prone to exploitation? You can't preface every anti tunnel perk with do objective this doesn't work condition on every anti tunnel perk you put forward. That mechanic reeks of being bug ridden and prone to exploitation. What if gen tapping bypasses it or maybe they start running around with a key what then? The cleanest way to do anti tunnel without breaking the game is having unhooked survivors use periods of reduced sensory tracking to sneak away.
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to the killers who somehow think you need to tunnel to get consistent 4ks. You make us killer mains look bad. You 100% do not...
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Lucky break is a good perk. But any perk you compare with the likes of bt, iron will and ds is gonna end up looking terrible. The perks I have listed are so absurdly powerful its not a healthy standard to hold other perks to. Lucky break also doesn't play well with meta survivor play which is alleviate pressure rush hooks and let bt and ds do the rest of the work. I can't imagine what it must be like to design solid excellent perks like dance with me and second wind only to have these long standing survivor perks overshadow every other perk option.
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I agree, but without a fundamental rework of the games core hook/death mechanic tunneling will always be a good strategy and widely used. Unfortunately, I don't think that's ever happening.
I don't think survivors should drop DS if they care about tunneling since it still helps against that, the ones dropping it will be the ones who knowingly abused it or who are overreacting imo. There's a certain mindset of "this got nerfed so it must be bad now" that might play in as well.
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DS's existence wasn't about tunneling. It came out at a time when tunneling was still defined as chasing 1 survivor for too long, which was boring for 3 survivors, stressful for the single survivor being chased, and annoying for the killer. The "tunneling" that's complained about today was only fully accepted as toxic by most survivors around the 3rd (maybe second.) rework of DS, which pushed it towards an anti-tunnel perk.
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My thoughts and takeaway from their last stream was “We want killers to Tunnel and Camp because we want there to be a threat”.
So in essence they have created perks that (sort of?) counter these which means that survivors have to bring them into a match in the hopes that if say survivor A has BT, but survivor B doesn’t and survivor A is the one who is hooked, it handicaps the group.
Oh don’t worry I am not asking for them to buff these perks but unlike many I am not blind to the fact that this is a problem for two reasons. It makes the rest of the “non-meta” perks feel like waste, and it doesn’t solve the problem that will continue to persist.
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