http://dbd.game/killswitch
Killer Mains and their idea of "Balance"
Comments
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you see theres this thing called a moron. They aren't good at the game, and both sides have them, and they are very good at b1tching about everything because they don't know any better. They're also notoriously loud
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But mostly survivors will cry if killer is using strong perks and strong addons.
According to survivors who I have played against, nurse without slowdowns and just tracking is unfair, nurse with slowdowns and 2 tracking is unfair.
Oni with M&A and IF is unbalanced and unfair.
Trapper with corrupt and pop + trapper bag is unfair.
Wraith with all seeing (purple) is unfair.
Hag, boring.
Freddy, boring.
Billy boring.
Huntress unfair with sniper builds.
Demo unfair with stbfl.
Pig unfair and boring with stbfl + combat pig.
Ghosty unfair (yes I've seen people complain about him).
Myers most fun addons are unfair.
If you as a killer use strong stuff you are the bad guy, but if a survivor has full meta perks then it's all good.
That is just basing from my experience on the game and this is from someone who started early in 2018.
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There being a 4k 0k difference doesnt matter tho. The AVERAGE should be a 2k. If 50% of the games are a 4k and 50% of the games are 0k, that goal of an average 2k is reached
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I think the only two things this game really needs balance wise are some of the maps need to be revisited again. Maps like Shelter woods are too killer sided, and maps like Bedham are so survivor sided it's laughable.
Also, the matchmaker and ranking systems of course would need to be much better as well.
I have other issues but they cannot be fixed at this point in the games life cycle, it is impossible to change the other issues I have with the game anymore. (Such as the game requiring that killers have half their build dedicated to just stalling the game; and survivors around just speeding things up or giving second chances)
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On the forums? Their idea of balance is nerfing anything they deem "second chance" or "undo button".
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Yes, I want a 4K every game if I can manage it. I suspect every Survivor wants to get out alive, and if they did that would be four escapes every game. I do not recall any Survivors ever caring much about my fun when I play Killer. Likewise, I don't focus on the Killer's fun when I play Survivor. The game doesn't provide fun. You have to bring that. You either enjoy the challenge and rise to it, or you don't. This is a PvP game where the two roles have mutually exclusive goals. So when I'm playing Killer I'm going to try to get you all. When I'm playing a Survivor I'm going to do my best to get my entire team out alive. I don't expect the opposition to give me any quarter or cut me any breaks.
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Kill rate is a dumb metric, though for a completely evenly skilled team vs killer it should avg out to two kills, or one escape with hatch.
I play both sides religiously, and i typically get 4k's or solo escapes (or just you know solo sacrafice myself for the entire team to get a 3 escape)
But like.. kills aren't the final metric of winning imo. i mean, if a clown can get a 4k vs a freddy who can get a 4k against the same team whilst having vastly different perks and abilities, whose truly the superior player? who feels like they've won?
the freddy likely had a far easier time of it, but would that denote that the clown had a more rewarding game? or a more stressful one. whose the better player if their playing against a perfect team and still get a 4k? are they both masters of their craft and was it a fair win.
did the clown camp until they all died? did the freddy?
how do you define a win in dbd?
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And you are missing my point.
It is a terrible financial decision for them to ignore this aspect of the game. Competitive play is what keeps games alive for a long time. If they don't do it, a competitor will. And games are already trying to do the asymmetrical thing again. It is only a matter of time until one succeeds and this game dies.
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In order to win in red ranks you need to 4k or 3k with a lot of points. So a 70-75% kill rate is likely the most ideal. But i dont care for kill rate what really annoys killers is buggy broken mechanics. Survivor this patch got to see some of the absolute nonesense crap many killers have to deal with.
By that I mean the desync issue is awarding unfair hits. Meanwhile im playing blight and several months after release still sliding off walls. I'm still getting huntress hatchets give an indication of a hit (blood splatter) but then randomly not connect because dead hard? Then theres recent map changes that have gimped many range killers even though indoor maps exist which horribly neuter them as well.
Most of the stuff mentioned above was unintentional whats even more grating is the intentional nerfs that have utterly annialated the play rate of traditionally popular fun killers. Ie billy and nurse. The deliberate effort to rain them in was so horribly executed many lost interest in the killers entirely. Again kill rate isnt pissing off killers its these horrible god awful design choices.
I remember when the pallet vaccum got changed we could still get kills even with pallet vaccum nonesense exisitng or double pallets. These changes forced survivors to play better. Coasting off easy pallet vaccum safe zones was out. Looping and pathing got more efficient. This will continue espicially since even now people are adjusting there pathing to accomodate the new map changes.
Tldr killer mains want cleaner less clunky gameplay that dosent break or have glaringly simple counterplay.
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I definitely do not aim for 4 kills every match despite being competitive. I just want the game to reward my skill when using playing a killer. For example, if 12 out of 15 phase walks as spirit, I land a hit and I am decimating the survivor in a chase, I expect to be winning that match. I think most killers want their efforts to be rewarded whether it is landing nurse blinks, landing clown bottles or using wraith stealth effectively.
Its the same for survivor, survivor expect to escape when they're outplaying the killer and winning the chases. depending on teammates, you should be able to get unhooks, heals and complete generators when your survivor team is doing well in chases. Its just that most of the time, Survivors are able to escape even when half the team was not playing very well and being able to effectively use a killer power often yields no reward when survivors are playing well and it has little impact on the match(as vast majority of killer powers are really bad/easy to counter-play).
As people have already stated, Kill rate is nothing more than a final result. Its not good statistic for balance. Its only good statistic for finding out how good a specific player is at playing that killer(assuming no facecamping, noed etc.). Average hooks and hook progression is a way better statistic for judging average balance of the game. Ideally a killer should get 7-8 hooks on average per game, however how many hooks a killer gets is based off survivor's skill in a chase & coordination on generators. If everyone really skilled at the chase and optimize the objective(as a team), than a killer will not get many hooks. Stronger killers have more opportunity to set up mindgames(opportunities to get hits), so the killer's skill matters more and has more input on outcome of a match. weaker killers less input on the match and often their abilities/tools they have to work with either do not work(too easy to hard-counter) or are ineffective/not rewarding to use in general.
devs should not focus on statistics, they should focus on gameplay interaction between the killer/survivor above all else. I am not sure how I would describe this, but the other important aspect should be to focus on functionality of the creation in gameplay over its effectiveness. If something is meant to be good at stealth, than it should focus on being very good at stealth and not worry about its overall statistic in relation to others. These two factors preserve fun aspect of the game and fun should be major goal for both sides.
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Dude, I never missed your point. I said the financial incentive isn't there for BHVR, I never said an assymetrical game can't be competitive or even make money.
And it's not like they haven't already tried to make competitive assymetrical before. Hell, the first ever true Assym-game, Evolve, was extremely focused on becoming an E-sports, it was born with that as part of the intent. It didn't work then, but I still loved the game for what it was.
Also, BHVR tried to make another Assym-game, one they were gearing towards strictly the competitive scene... It flopped within months.
This is why BHVR specifically is reluctant to go into that position again. Also the fact that they attempted tournaments in the past with this game, and for the most part they were embarrassing.
I do hope another game dies pull of ayssm in a more competitive style of game, I absolutely do. But it's likely just not going to happen with this game
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To be honest everyone has there own opinion and what some class as balance others won't regardless of what changes same with all things I guess, but for me in a game where most ppl class escaping as a win or killing all 4 as a win I put to them if the killer ends the game with 3 kills and 1 guy escapes who then has won? Is it the survivor or the killer? Let's face it it doesn't really matter for me I want to win but with this game there is no clear what is a win as is it pips or kills for me I look at the points if I'm survivor and the whole team gets killed but at the end say I have the most points as all that killer has done is camped and tunneled and teammates have been over altruistic I'd be like we'll be ain't won look at his ######### score but like every1 we all have our views but for me where there is no clear and concise win I use points as more of a realistic benchmark for who won as if I haven't done enough on either side then I have lost like I say that's just my opinion
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You're so biased its laughable.
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If a 2k is perfect balance why does it almost always give a saftey pip?
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Basing balance off of kill rates is one of the most stupidest ways I've ever seen a group of developers.
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As a killer main but as someone who also plays survivor I agree with you. It makes me cringe when killer mains moan about not getting a 4k every match. I want balance but not balance to favour killers ACTUAL balance in the game where neither side as a ridiculous edge for some reason other than skill. All I can say is please don't think all killer mains are like this, they represent us badly
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Those stats aren't reliable though.
There are a lot of factors that make them unreliable.
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I usually get 4k kill most of the time with Freddy he 2tiers I leveled him up mostly
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Me baised? LMAO!!
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Yeah but usually you have to work to try to actually get those 2 left in early game
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Take a look at all youre posts mate
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Don't waste your time responding to him. You'll only give yourself a headache. Just look at their comment history and you will understand.
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A 50% survival rate would be balanced as an average, but a 2k/2e isn't realistic in how the game actually works.
Killers start the trial at their weakest, all survivors are full health, 3 hooks from death and all resources are still available. As the trial progresses, pallets are destroyed, items are used, perks are used up and hopefully some of the survivors are closer to death than others.
Once a survivor dies, the other survivors need to pick up the slack. As this goes on, survivors get weaker as they run out of health states, have more work to do, and less resources to use to do it.
So goes the snowball, as survivors fall, so do the chances that anyone escapes (excluding hatch escapes).
The way to balance the game is improving matchmaking, re-balancing maps that are one sided, and probably look at the most common perks and add-ons and figure out why those are the most common and give some nerfs and buffs to improve the variety of gameplay styles.
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Anyone who thinks this game is balanced quite simply is a moron. You're in a casual game, it's not competitively balanced.
The problem with it at the moment is that you don't need to be good as survivor. Some players are good but you don't need to be, you just need to do gens and not waste your time hiding in a bush or sight-seeing. That's it and you win.
Killers don't want the easy 4k they just want balance. If you think the game is balanced then how come it's universally agreed that as killer time is money and even something like walking to a gen is a decision you need to carefully weigh up and see if you have the time or if it's worth it, whereas survivor you can meme about, chill, play silly games with other survivors and still get the gens done in time?
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I'll be honest, I could give a damn about true balance if they just made the game ######### fun.
Give solo survivors a different objective beyond survival; something that awards just as many points or something.
Give new perks to the game that do nothing but increase blood point earnings or something but don't buff you. Like "Gain a stackable 25% BONUS in bloodpoints in all categories however your power cool down/Charge time is doubled" or something. I would love that.
It removes the stress about "Winning" and rewards you more for TRYING TO JUST PLAY.
That's what this game needs more than anything right now, a will and motivation to just....play.
There is too much stress based around trying to win either by killing everyone or escaping; and nothing properly awarding you or giving you a sense of accomplishment for literally anything else. Change that; and I promise the atmosphere of the game would change immediately for the better.
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Which is boosted, but when it's Killer nerf time... Stats.
But when we look at them same stats, Nurse has a weak kill rate and pick rate. She should be buffed based on this information, but ya know... Stats only matter in a nerf.
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It aint about kill rate, It is about the fact that when you get down to It survivors have more control then the Killer in the game.
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I'd be satisfied when ranking is fair and survivors don't act like toxic little children.
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Thanks For the heads up kind bush creature.
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I think all the discussion of statistics in this thread misses the forest for the trees. There is such a thing as the "Bell Curve" which is the heart and soul of actual statistical analysis. The DEV do not expect perfect balance to be defined by all games coming down to a draw, i.e. two kills and two escapes. That would be impossible to achieve and deadly boring if you somehow managed it. It would mean the game has become entirely predictable.
What the DEV are looking to accomplish is a Bell Curve which radiates out from two kills and two escapes. That is the best you can do in this kind of PvP game. Individual matches, however, are going to be all over the place. For the sake of argument (and not a personal claim here) let's say that I get 3-4K nearly every game I play. This is true against potatoes and good players alike. That doesn't mean the game isn't balanced. Let's be MORE realistic and talk about Otz. Just because he is capable of inhuman feats of skill in DbD doesn't mean the balance is off. That is simply Otz being Otz; he is that good. My point is for every Otz there are literally hundreds (if not thousands) of Killers who are lucky to get a single kill (some can't even get a hook).
People are always trying to "interpret" statistics, but those doing so are looking too hard and seeing things that aren't there. The most valuable and telling information is visible in the Bell Curve, period.
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THIS
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Both sides cry my dude. These forums are proof of that. Survivors cry as much as killers. Both sides get equally butt hurt about things.
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they already admitted hook suicides are averaged into those things since they "have no way" (meaning are too lazy or poorly skilled) to sort those out
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Do we need to bring up ALL the quotes from any given social media platform the devs use and survivors crying bloody murder about how this and that killer needs to be nerfed if not removed at all, and when you dig deeper for their reasoning it turns out they deem killer broken because they can't run them easily/in general can't apply their uninspired 'endless loops chase' approach?
But seriously now:
The issue is with entitles brats on both sides: Players who demand an 'iWin' button. Survivors who seem to only think the game is good if they can insta-finish gens and insta-wiggle off while stunning the killer for the entire match, and killers who want a 4k by so much as looking at the dbd icon on their desktop/dashboard.
And it's these brats that drown out the genuine helpful feedback. Things like why the killrate with freddy/bubba/spirit is off-balance, reasons why certain perks need to be overhauled etc. The brats just drown them out. Be angry at those people, not the rest
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This person gets it ^^^^^
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For me, it isn't stress. It's lackluster end of game. I really don't care if I escape, though it is nice to do so. It does suck though to lead the Killer on a long, end chase that allows whatever other remaining survivors there are to get out, and though you've been active in the game the whole time, the reward is a pittance.
I suppose the intention is to feed into the decision to play altruistically or not and I can respect that intention, but as you say, it would be more fun and probably more engaging to have efforts like that have a bonus reward.
I imagine that Killers can have similar frustrations.
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You know survivor queues are so long because killers are rare right? Because killer is underpowered and not worth the abuse.
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Absolutely. I'm more interested in a quality match/chase.
If the match is going my way I have no problems giving up the hatch or gate. I've walked people gen to gen and let them out if it ended up too one sided.
Doesn't get returned as much because I've def been beat up by Srv's but there are some out there that will which is always appreciated.
Is there any way to track kill/escape rate ?
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I would be satisfied if I could make a play and be rewarded for it.
Right now you only get a hit when survivors stuff up somehow since most loops have safe spots and holes all over them to see what the killer is doing.
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There is not really any metric that shows who has won, and it's hard to find any metric that shows how balanced the game is. In general, you shouldn't play this game to win. We just have to accept that Dbd can be very unrewarding and punishes mistakes quite harsh. This game is hugely momentum based. I had games were i played very bad as killer (or let's say, i got a map like Ormond, survs did gens and i couldn't pressure enough due to the map being too big) and suddenly in end game i could turn the tide because they ######### up a save and i slugged everyone. Or if the killer suddenly decides to chase that god Meg and the last 2 gens, while being in a bad position, just pop, even though he had an early kill in the match.
Kills doesn't mean that you played good, the same goes for escapes. If the killer camps his 2 only hooks (that he had in endgame) to his 2 only kills, does it mean the match was balanced?
Or if you get 10 hooks but only 2 kills, what does that mean? Some would say, it means the killer dominated the match. For me, that means that you either don't care about kills or that you are a BAD killer - because killer is not just about doing good chases and mindgames - it's also about management and game sense. If you don't manage your hooks even though survivors only have 2 or 1 gens to do, you don't know how to play killer efficiently. I know, sometimes survivors manage to magically draw your attention to that one Feng who hasn't been hooked yet. But as a killer, you should know when to "tunnel" or "camp" (given that you're a sweaty tryhard), because killing someone is the greatest form of pressure for the killer in this game.
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No ones asking for a 4k every game. But killer does need buffs as do solo que survivors. I dunno what the point of your post is? To make it out the majority of people are asking for insane nerfs, nope simply not true. Yea there small groups of survivors and killers who are asking for insane stuff but that's the same with every group.
Your point is invalid, not true and isn't helpful in the balance discussion stop being toxic .
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That's the whole problem if you wanna Ballance something look at the pros don't make everything easy for noobs since it becomes broken for pros. Devs will never achieve any balance with currect tactic using some kill rates is stupid ask pros. I myself am rank 1 piggy main piggy is so bad killer that I win only because of my game knowledge and intelligence. I would say that I have 90-% kill rate not counting amount of people I let go just because I feel sorry for them.
My record is 20 or so 4 k's in the row tho to be honest most of the survs I meet suck at the game and are overconfident. Maybe in 1 in 20 games I meet 1 good survivor and 1 in 60 games a good swf which can f me hard. To balance this game whole stupid looping must be reworked to the point in which it can be easy enough for the noob and not be just running from one pallet to the another forcing killer to change a target. How would I affect that? Add some events happening on the map extra objectives power ups abilities something like that game rn is just not good and can be easily exploited especially for poor m1 killers not even mentioning stupid mechanic of undetectable in which you are being detected by perks spine chill etc just moonwalking xd reminds me of old legion. I would gladly do something good with the balance of this game but it's the core that's is corrupted without implementing new mechanic's changing few numbers would never make this game balanced but what Am I expecting from people not playing their own game they don't know what they are doing
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