The issue with tapping to get an advantage and to avoid skill checks (for instance gentapping)...!

@fcc2014 said:
It takes longer to Gen tap than actually work through it. Who cares if 4 survivors gen tap their way through the whole match the problem isn't gen tapping the problem is you! You need to apply map pressure. Stop using excuses as to why you "fail".

Hang on there, there is a difference between tapping your way through until it's done and just tapping once to remove the regressing mechanic, including any effect put on - like overcharge. It takes time for the killer to make the gen regress - ie. to apply the overcharge effect, time which the killer could be using to apply map pressure.

So no the problem isn't me - if you can't see that there is a problem, then you have a problem.
Also, being able to just keep single tapping to avoid an intended game mechanic, is by definition an exploit, which devs really should realize but apparently don't.

@Malakir said:
@Incarnate gen tapping isn't an exploit and any survivor won't do that unless its for fun. It would take AGES to complete even 15% of a gen. There is ruin? Just work through it, its faster, gentapping would take the same time of 5 gens

Your definition of exploit is kinda over the top, then dr juggle the survivirs is an exploit, body block to hit the chainsaw is an exploit and from there we can go through 'every aura perk is an exploit' since would be a snowball effect started by a dumb statement

Gentapping actually is - do you know the definition of an exploit in video games? There are slight variations of the definition: "an exploit is the use of a bug or glitches, game system, rates, hit boxes, speed or level design etc. by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers." This wasn't intended by design, and quite clearly the player is gaining an advantage that wasn't intended, and that devs haven't done anything about it just says something about them, because this quite clearly is very imbalanced.

Also, did you not notice the example with overcharge? Where they don't keep sitting and tapping it through until done, but simply tap once to remove the regressing + overcharge effect and then run off, they don't even care if they're going to face a skill check that they will auto fail - they don't lose time doing that.

@powerbats said:

@Incarnate said:

Devs make the rules, teh devs say it's not an exploit so your claims to the contrary have no basis or factual claim to be correct. That's just your opinion and gen tapping doesn't stop the explosion from overcharge. As far as Ruin being gen tapped if you're complaining about that then the problem is most definitely you.

In fact you want them gen tapping away since it takes them forever to finish 1 gen and quite often they'll still blow the thing up.

Yes, the devs make the rules, but that doesn't mean thats how it should be, the really should've been consequential and fixed it when they learned it was being abused, instead of just whitelisting it to avoid having to fix it.

This is actually something that is at the core of how skill checks trigger, you can litterally avoid any skill check that has detrimental effect just by tapping instead of holding, so it most certaintly is an exploit by the general definition of what an exploit is in video games.

You're right, it doesn't stop the explosion, but the explosion part has little relevance in this regard, because the tapping part is being abused to set it off thus removing it. Same goes with removing the regression from a generator, which takes more time for the killer to apply than it does for a survivor to remove - just a simple tap from the survivor that is all.

In regards to ruin, it's actually still avoiding the detrimental effect - the intention with ruin isn't just to slow you down in repairing the gen, but actually also to prevent you from finishing. It litterally states that good checks will regress the progress by 5% and only great checks will be 0% loss. So if you cannot see that even despite the devs saying it's not an exploit, it quite clearly is, because the players are directly AVOIDING an intended detrimental game mechanic, and by allowing it, they're litterally doing an injustice to the players using for instance hex ruin. Same goes with any killer when in regards to removing the regression and effect with a single click rather than what was intended.

@Malakir said:
Dude they get no advantage by doing that, you are the one who doesn't know what an exploit is. Get in a place of the map where the killer can't hit you is an exploit, bugging the killer in a pallet is an exploit, do gens 95% slower for the lulz isn't an exploit. Tell me what advantages gives except make it slow af?

Does make gens go faster even with ruin? No
Ignore overcharge? No
Make the gens be quiter for a big? No
Let them progress even when grabbed by the killer? No

I can go on being even more creative and it would always turn to be a no unless the question is : for a laugh?

You should know what an exploit is don't manipulate words to fit your narrative, it doesn't give any advantage and nobody uses that especially that often that a thread is been needed. I just saw done it once when the general was at 95% and took 30+s to finish it looking those 2 vibrating on a general (for the action button spam) so no, its not an exploit.

I don't even know why you are so upset about it, like I said if you think its an exploit then almost anything its an exploit starting to dribbling surveys and ending with the very core mechanics. Please before write a statement like that do me a favor, think

They do get an advantage by gentapping, or any other single tapping to avoid a detrimental skill check.
The intention with Hex: Ruin isn't just to slow you down in repairing the gen, but actually also to prevent you from finishing it. It litterally states that good checks will regress the progress by 5% and only great checks will be 0% loss. So by tapping your way through you're AVOIDING an intended detrimental mechanic - because even if it take 95% longer to do, you actually will still complete it, where it's possible you wouldn't if you didn't keep tapping the gen.

I'm not saying that tapping a gen will ignore the overcharge effect, but what I am saying, because they haven't dealt with the tapping issue, that is being exploited and abused. As I described above, just tapping once will remove regression effect, one doesn't even have to make the gen progress, it's just a single tap, and the regression effect is gone - which I'm saying is what survivor players do. Litterally, they if they see a gen that regressing, they litterally just run past it and as they run past it all the do is tap once and then continue to keep running.

Quite litterally, at the core, you can tap through most where a skill check would trigger to avoid any detrimental skill check - which means that the tapping mechanics as a whole can bypass many detrimental game mechanical effects - which normally would be considered an exploit in video games, but for some reason the devs don't realize that tapping is an actual issue for game balance.

On the note of manipulating words, I'm doing no so such things, if anyone is manipulating words it's you, because you're using examples that has absolutely nothing to with the subject.

@Nos37 - I do, but that wasn't the main point either, and it's actually in less than a second. The point though, even without overcharge, the killer is spending time on applying an effect that works over time, that can be remove just by a simple tap.

Do you realize what I'm saying with whats actually wrong at the core with the fact that you can tap through most that would trigger a skill check, to avoid the detrimental effects, in other words directly negating them?

@Malakir said:
Say that hex ruin is for preventinf too finish the general its hilarious. I'm not the best survivor ever but I still work through it efficiently I actually get more great skillchecks with it than when there isn't. With ruin your slow the gens for extra 10s and I can assure you isn't by gen tapping, it would take way longer

Since you are making really silly statements can I ask you what rank are you? I've been rank 1 in both sides for awhile now and been in this forum as well and never saw somebody cry so much about something I would call tactic

Gen was kicked?
*Yes, its regressing now? -No. Someone around - yes, look somewhere else
*No, look somewhere else

If you look at it's description, it's quite clear thats how it's intended - obviously how well it works depends on the skill of the players. But that still doesn't change the fact that the players are directly negating it's effect
Consider it's combined with other effects that make it more difficult to pass the skill checks, then it's more efficient at what it's intended to do - which can directly be negated by tapping.

What is silly is the fact that it's not being considered an exploit by the devs.

I play in the red ranks.

Also, you're approaching this from a wrong angle - because thats usually what you would do, but that doesn't mean it's actually not an issue. The point of the matter is, that it takes less than a second to remove an effect that first of all is an effect over time, but also an effect that takes longer to apply than it does remove it - a simple tap is all, the survivor doesn't even have to keep tapping, the survivor can tap and continue to run.

@Malakir said:
Also, you're approaching this from a wrong angle - because thats usually what you would do, but that doesn't mean it's actually not an issue. The point of the matter is, that it takes less than a second to remove an effect that first of all is an effect over time, but also an effect that takes longer to apply than it does remove it - a simple tap is all, the survivor doesn't even have to keep tapping, the survivor can tap and continue to run.

That's very true but now ask yourself a question. Would it be a problem if the maps were balanced and genrushing wasn't an issue? Would it be a problem if the survivor had to do something else in order to escape? even something minimal, nothing huge.

If the answer of any of this question is no then you got your answer

You're really avoiding the issue, how many times do I have to say it's not just tapping gens - this is at the core, almost any skill check be avoided by tapping, which will avoid most detrimental effect imposed either by addons or perks, in other words negate them.

Also, using all of these non-relevant examples isn't really constructive to this discussion nor to your argument.

@Nos37 said:
Here's a breakdown:

• A Good skill check with Ruin is 5% regression, or 4 charges = 4 seconds of Survivior repair lost
• Survivors can tap a gen twice per second, at best, and that tap only adds 0.25 charges = 1 charge every 2 seconds
• This means that the Survivor would have to get a Good skill check every four seconds to lose as much progress as they would by gen-tapping!

I can tell you that I don't get skill checks that often as Survivor. Gen-tapping is in the Killer's favor.

Still, the main point here is that they're completely ignoring any detrimental effect other than it takes longer.
Also, there are things that will make skill checks happen more regularly, plus it's not just Hex: Ruin, it's litterally anything that would impose a more difficult skill check, that they're avoiding - which means that they avoiding potentially failing the check - which would direcly alert the killer (unless technician triggers), but otherwise it would alert the killer where the survivor would have to consider continueing or leaving the gen. So it's most certainly not just about it taking a longer, but by tapping you're avoiding a lot potential consequences which is directly for benefit of the killer - where tapping to avoid those basically means it's not just the addons or perks involved but a lot of game mechanics that are being bypassed this way.

Like I said, it's not just gen-tapping thats an issue, but the very fact that you can just tap to avoid skill checks, which have possible detrimental effects and game mechanical consequences linked to them... how is that not an issue?

@Nos37 said:
As Survivor, I can choose not to work on a gen and I'm avoiding any detrimental effects that failing a skill check would have. (I can simply pass skill checks and I'm avoiding any detrimental effects as well.) The gens don't get done as fast, giving the Killer more precious time to find and sacrifice Survivors. Gen-tapping does the same thing: gives the Killer more precious time...

Hang on a second there..
Choosing not to work on a gen would allow you avoid any detrimental effects that failing check would've, but then you wouldn't have any progress on the gen at all. But the part about you simply passing skill checks because you're avoiding them, is very incorrect - you're not passing any skill checks, because not being given any skill checks to pass. So when you are actually are working on a gen or doing something where a skill check could trigger, you're not supposed to be able to avoid skill checks altogether, the only reason you can is because they've made it in a certain way that makes you able to do so even when it wasn't intended. Furthermore, avoiding these skills checks where detrimental effects and game mechanics with actual consequences associtated with them are directly being negated.

So when you're avoiding the skill checks from triggering, no matter the action, you're actually robbing the killer of the alert/notification it was supposed to get, something that is intended to help find you the survivor. So by avoiding these skill checks, you're directly removing an important gameplay aspect from the killer and therefore you're negatively affecting the gameplay balance, which is weakening the balance killer's balance.

Just because two things give the same, doesn't mean they're the same or that they're both ok just because one is.

Seriously, how can you not see this is an actual issue? There are so many game mechanical and gameplay aspects that are directly avoided through just tapping to avoid skill checks.

@powerbats - you can most certainly avoid skills checks by tapping, it's potentially possible that a skill check might trigger, just as you tap, but not very likely, plus a tap isn't holding for a few seconds, tapping is tapping and holding is holding, not the same thing.

Currently as it is now in the game, it doesn't matter if it's just a tap, like less than 0.25s, it will still stop the regression without a skill check, but it's not if a skill check triggers that matter in this regard though. The time you spend on stopping the regression actually does matter in relation to game balance, because it takes the killer roughly 2s to apply the regression, but you can remove that with less than 0.25s of effort.

The point about that you can avoid skill checks by tapping, isn't just gen-tapping, it's tapping in general, in effect you can litterally avoid most skill checks that have a detrimental effect imposed on it, where avoiding the skill check you also avoid the negative effect thats associated with it, where this effect is intended to help the killer, which directly hurts the killer's gameplay and balance - how is it that you don't see this?

@Nos37 said:

@Incarnate said:
Seriously, how can you not see this is an actual issue? There are so many game mechanical and gameplay aspects that are directly avoided through just tapping to avoid skill checks.

I see it, but I also see that the cost outweighs the benefit, and the devs can always steepen that cost.

The Killer will patrol gens if not in a chase so it's only a matter of time before every gen is checked. A Survivor can choose to repair at 50% the normal speed to bypass skill checks that could potentially reveal their location to the Killer, but it's not worth it because the Killer will check that gen eventually anyway; especially if it takes the Survivor twice as long to repair.

As Survivor, would you equip this perk:
"Exploitative: You know how to navigate your way around intended game mechanics. Chance for skill checks reduced by 100%. You heal, repair, sabotage, and open exit gates 50% slower."

By removing gen-tapping from the whitelist it puts more strain on the enforcement team. It's not as simple as "okay, you did a thing, now you are punished." As stated earlier: it's arbitrary.

• This Survivor spent 160 seconds repairing a gen (instead of 80 seconds) without the possibility of me (the Killer) ever knowing his location (the equivelant of that Survivor having passed every skill check). Ban?
• This Survivor worked on a gen for a split second before being pulled off by an Evil Within 1 Shape. Ban?

The team would have to watch through hours of footage to make sure they don't accidentally or needlessly punish a player (on top of the hours of footage for worse things that are bannable).

If you see it, then it doesn't make sense why you'd even suggest that, because all of that is completely irrelevant, as it's a simple matter that it shouldn't be possible to just tap through to avoid skill checks, and as such they won't need any enforcement teams in this regard.

How they fix it is a different matter, but avoiding skill checks means you also avoid detrimental effects and their associated gameplay mechanics and aspects, which are important for the game balance - hence why they need to fix it rather than allow it because it directly negates associated gameplay mechanics.

@Nos37 said:

If I find a dollar on the street, pick it up, and keep it, I am stealing.

If it costs the city (and therefore taxpayers) hundreds of dollars for me to be arrested, booked, and brought before a judge, is stealing that dollar an actual issue? What about $5? $20? The crime is arbitrary.

If the dollar was in a sewer drain among filth and trash, and I had to get on my stomach to squeeze into the sewer and ruin my clothes just to get it, was it worth it if I have to spend money on the water bill for cleaning my clothes? The cost outweighs the benefit.

I think you're making it seem to be costing them way more that it actually might or will.
Also, this affects game balance alot more than it just being the tapping of gens, as I've been trying to point.

@Beverly said:
Gen-tapping is the equivalent of watching paint dry to me. Spamming the same button over and over again to avoid ruin skill checks just doesn't seem worth it, especially considering how long it takes and how dull it is. I usually get it done much faster by bum-rushing it.

That's probably the best course of action to take during ruin since you can safely assume the rest of your team is running around like headless chickens trying to find the totem. As far as running up and tapping the gen to stop regression during a chase goes, it feels useless. The killer will just stop to kick it, creating a bigger setback.

The skill checks really aren't that big of a deal. Anyone can work through ruin. Gen-tapping, however, prolongs the repairs and does not do much.I would not worry too much about it. Heck, the survivors may even miss out on co-op points if they're repairing with someone else.

Yeah? The point though is with what I've been trying to point out above, is that it isn't just tapping gens where you can avoid skill checks with detrimental effects, but most skill checks in fact. And in doing so, you're also avoiding other associated game mechanics, which directly affect the intended game balance.

To give an example..
If you tap the gen or any other skill check where if you failed it would actually alert the killer, by giving the killer both a visual and audible cue, by tapping you're effectively avoiding the skill check, and by avoiding the skill check you're also negating the associated gameplay mechanic from triggering, which will rob the killer of that benefit. Which is it directly will affect the intended gameplay aspects and balance.