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Dead Hard vs Blood Lust
So I've seen a lot of debate on whether or not Dead Hard is OP and if it should be nerfed. Killers say it's an easy get out of jail free card and survivors say it barely works due to latency and you end up exhausted on the ground. I get both sides, I truly do.
But after thinking about it, what's the difference between Dead Hard and Blood Lust? Both reward the opposing side for being bad at a chase.
Dead Hard allows a survivor to possibly get to a pallet/window or avoid a hit.
Bloodlust allows a killer to catch up to a survivor faster because they've had difficulty chasing them.
If you're going nerf one then you have to nerf the other.
Comments
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I have said the same a few days ago that if erasing a mistake by pressing "E" is the problem with Dead Hard, Bloodlust is basically erasing a mistake by pressing "W".
I would totally be fine with removing both, lol.
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Agree, send both to hell pls
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I’m fine with both being removed, but I worry how that would affect newer killers who struggle in loops & chase.
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I don't see the equivalence.
Also, perks are supposed to have some benefit in using them. People need to stop with this OP bullshit. It's a strong perk not OP.
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Works for me.
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That's the thing. The majority of the complaints I see on the forums are from killers/survivors that more than likely have under 1000 hours. They fail to realize DBD isn't just a game you can pick up and be good at overnight. It takes countless hours of grinding and repetition to learn how to loop. And it takes countless hours playing killer and studying survivor pathing to understand where they're most likely to run to.
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Remove Bloodlust, if you want to see even more Spirits, Freddys, and the like; and never see a Wraith ever again.
I'd be ok with reworking Bloodlust, but don't see justification for completely gutting it.
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Agreed. Dead Hard and Bloodlust are both reward-for-failure-relics at this point. I wouldn't miss either of these two things.
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I totally support this 👍
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And sometimes they get bad RNG and there are no pallets making DH useless?
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I made this exact point in a thread the other day.
I just don't see how you can not feel the same way about both of them. Either nerf both, or leave them both alone. How can you scream for DH nerfs, which cost a perk slot and to some extent counters bloodlust, but have no problems with free BL.
No perk slot needed.
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Yeah but DH take perk slot and blood lust not, thats why is problem.
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It's not a trade off for having an extended chase.. some maps literally have complete dead zones the minute the match starts.
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What Wraith uses Bloodlust? The second you get a hit you should immediately be going back into cloak to catch back up. No killer needs bloodlust anymore and this was proven when they removed it for a weekend a few months back.
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It depends which bloodlust you’re referring to. For levels 2 & 3 I agree, for level 1 that’s not true at all.
Holding W in a straight line after being hit = Around 20 seconds to catch up
Bloodlust = 15 seconds to activate
You can’t tell me bloodlust activating because the survivor held W is “being bad in a chase”.
But remember Bloodlust exists because of how bad the map design used to be and the past few months we’ve slowly started to see that same bad map design creep back into the game
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Thats not the point of this thread. But thanks for repeating what others already have said.
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Except there literally is no main problem. It wins extra seconds in chase, just like bloodlust wins killers extra seconds in chase. It fixes survivor mistakes just like bloodlust fixes killer mistakes when they don't mind game properly and force survivors into the proper tiles.
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You’re such a deceitful liar
DH can activate at anytime by any player on button press. Meanwhile I dont think a lot of killers have ever reached Bloodlust tier 2 or 3 in years.
Make DH only activate after 30 seconds of chasing then hows that? Oh and pallet drops or vaults reset the timer
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First of all, I dont have a problem with Dead Hard. Even for distance. The only time Dead Hard is really somewhat of an issue for me is when the Survivor did never use it but uses it in the lategame (probably because it did not work before, lol). But it is indeed true that the Perk is only functioning partly.
And before Dedicated Servers, nobody complained about Dead Hard. Now when it is used for Distance, everyone complains (or because they saw that other Survivor Perks got nerfed, so lets go for the next one, eh?). Killers always say that Survivors should adapt - they adapted, used DH for Distance and then it is wrong that they adapted.
However, the main point here is to compare DH with Bloodlust. If Dead Hard is erasing a mistake by pressing a Button, so is Bloodlust (but obviously stronger, since you dont have to waste a Perk Slot). The fact that DH is only used for Distance nowadays and that some people see that as a problem was made in so many threads already. So contributing only this looks like you have not really read what OP was writing.
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Here’s the thing bud, no killer is going to defend Bloodlust levels 2 or 3 so fair enough strip those and DH out of the game :)
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Bloodlust 1 needs to go as well. Once it kicks in, unsafe Loops become totally in the Killers favor, despite them messing up. Bloodlust has no place in this game anymore.
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Blood lust ONLY exists because of infinite loops which has been said many MANY times.
Its foolish to say its for anything else as the developers not that long ago turned Blood Lust off to see if they had fixed the infinite loops.
There are still A LOT of semi/true infinite loops so bloodlust was turned back on because the game still needs it to make up for bad map design.
So there is no equivalence between the two as one is a good survivor perk and the other is a baseline mechanic meant to break infinite loops.
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"Stop substituting the concepts. Nobody complains that "adapting is bad". The problem is that the result of that adaption is unfair."
I would disagree. But in general, adaptions evolve into good things (for those who adapt), that is the general point of Adaptions.
"I remember you complaining about ads slinger tactic, where you just threaten survivor with ads without actually shooting, which makes survivor change their path and get hit.
Imagine if NOBODY did that on slinger's release except some rare players, then SOMETHING happened and EVERYBODY is doing that thing with slinger. Not same levels of bullshit of course, but I hope you get the idea. People adapted -> certain bs tactic/thing is revealed -> it's fair to tune it down."
The difference would be, Deathslinger would still be problematic because there is no reaction time to his shot at certain distances. You basically cannot escape a good Deathslinger. So removing the ADS-faking from Deathslinger would do nothing while removing the Distances requirement from Dead Hard would make the Perk useless since it would only be able to dodge a Hit then, which does not even work.
"Let's compare monday and orange in next post please, they are similar too, both words consist of 6 letters."
The main argument is that pressing "E" is a way to erase a mistake. Bloodlust is just pressing "W" to erase mistakes. Quite compareable, Bloodlust obviously a lot stronger tho.
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Bloodlust doesn't necessarily kick in after making a mistake though. Sometimes, loops are just ridiculously strong and chained one after the other. Sure, they don't always spawn like that but it's RNG so it does happen and depending on the map you're playing on it happens more often or less often. I've had a stupid set up as survivor on the reworked Father Campbells chapel yesterday. It was a long junge gym into the shack into another normal loop. If you're a solid survivor, the killers odds of catching you right there with just the normal loop pallet, the jungle gym and the shack windows are just extremely low. I suppose that's more of an RNG problem which also screws survivors over at times, but nevertheless bloodlust in this scenario does plasterfix the ridiculous set ups to a degree.
That said, for any other normal loop bloodlust really becomes just annoying to go against. When you're in a chase with a killer and they just run around the loop a couple of times until they get bloodlust 3, you really feel powerless as survivor because you're stuck. You can't really leave the loop because the killer will be right on top of you so you're just screwed and not because the killer outplayed you, but because the game gave it to the killer.
So yeah I do see the similarities with Dead Hard where you don't exactly need to be skilled to outplay the other side. It's just a game mechanic or perk that grants you this. I'd say I see more people using Dead Hard than bloodlusting killers but it should be something to keep in mind for future updates either way.
In general they should just fix the RNG, get rid of the ridiculously strong or weak set ups and make them overall solid set ups where both sides have a fair chance. The killer should be able to get the survivor, but the survivor should also be able to have a shot at escaping. It probably requires a lot of work though, so I don't see it happen anytime soon. Once, the RNG is gone and all loops are normalized then bloodlust should in my opinion be removed. Dead Hard should be changed too, because like you said when we're talking about "granting a free down or escape" they have similar effects.
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The problem with Bloodlust is that it's integral to the design of a lot of loops, specifically Haddonfield. And if a killer Bloodlust you anywhere else you won the chase so who cares, be ausw it takes bloody ages to bloodlust someone.
It's not the same with Dead Hard. In a game where killers rely on survivors mistakes, it is literally designed to undo a mistake.
A better comparison might be Bloodlust and Holding W, however once again we enter into the region of it not really being a great comparison thanks to the fact that Hold W is a viable strat and easily the one I encounter the most.
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Unsafe Loops are fair loops. IMO there should be a little bit less Pallets and way more unsafe Pallets, this would result in Killers not being forced to break Pallets immediatly and Survivors not running out of Pallets because that Rank 12 Meghead threw every Pallet in 2 minutes.
But for that, Bloodlust needs to go. A unsafe (or fair) Loop means that both players can play it. I can drop the Pallet at an unsafe Loop and run the Killer around, faking a vault which might allow me to gain distance. This is not possible with Bloodlust because at some point (even Bloodlust 1), the Killer becomes too fast to do that. So the fair Loops becomes unfair because the Killer gets a Speedboost for not being able to outplay the Survivor and just circling the Loop while pressing "W".
Some Loops are too unsafe, e.g. Hawkins loops are just "respect Pallet, get a hit" for the Killer. But something like the outside Loops of Badham are pretty fair.
And during the Bloodlust experiment, most of the time as Killer or Survivor I did quite well at such kind of Loops. But I also got run around the two Pallets next to the School on Badham by a Survivor, I was not able to get her - because she was better than me. And it is ok that she is better than me, it would have been unfair if I would get a Speedboost because she was outplaying me.
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There are still some ridiculous loops on maps that killers NEED bloodlust at. For example, the atrocious back to back tile setup in the middle of Suffocation Pit, as well as the middle building on Father Campbell's Chapel. Some long fence loops still spawn on Haddonfield too at times, good luck catching up without it.
Your comment about "Both reward the opposing side for being bad at a chase." is ridiculous too. That suggests that you think anything longer than a 15 second chase is the killer being bad at a chase. Also, for survivors, it doesn't reward them for being bad in a chase necessarily. They could be an amazing looper, but make a simple mistake and fix it by using Dead Hard. Doesn't mean they were bad in the chase at all.
You're also forgetting that Dead Hard also gives invincibility frames as well as the distance. Bloodlust JUST allows you to travel slightly quicker, which again, at some loops is DEFINITELY needed. Good players will typically use Dead Hard for the distance because it's the most efficient way of using it, weaker players will typically try to react at the last second, and if they're successful, the i-frames prevent them from going down, if they're not successful, that's when they'll go down exhausted.
Not to mention, you don't instantly have Bloodlust as soon as you enter chase. You have to wait 15 seconds, up to a total of 45 seconds before you reach the fastest state of Bloodlust. With survivor, you're going to regain your Dead Hard very easily when you're working on gens, meaning it's most likely going to be available ready for the next time you're injured in a chase.
I'd be fine if they removed Bloodlust 2 and Bloodlust 3, because once you reach around the 35 second mark in a single chase, that's when you're starting to risk losing the game because of one chase (if you're against good survivors).
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If a loop is unsafe, isn't it already in the killer's favour because it'd be really easy to get a hit? If the survivor stays at the unsafe loop after taking a hit, that's their fault for not using the speed boost from the hit to run off elsewhere.
Bloodlust will only work at unsafe loops if they're already injured from earlier on in the chase and then ran to an unsafe loop. If a killer has to spend 15 seconds at an unsafe loop where it's already easy to get a hit anyway, they're just a bad killer.
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consistently red rank wraith main here. About 90% of my chases never go into bloodlust and even then it's mostly because I know I'll benefit from it. Honestly I think the removal of bloodlust would only hurt bad/inexperienced players. Bloodlust in and of itself isn't really a mechanic you use by accident, you consciously make the choice to bloodlust.
I'm with you on reworking it but I don't think it would change less popular/less powerful killers being played because the people that do play them, that aren't new, are smart enough to understand how to play without bloodlust.
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You think the speed boost from Bloodlust is unfair when you're being looped at a building that has one or two god pallets?
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When getting hit, sure, it is better to use the Speed Burst to get away. If they get hit during this scenario and stay there, they deserve to be downed, completely agree.
But if there is an unsafe Loop and the Survivor drops the Pallet, but the Killer respects it, the Survivor will get hit, no matter what. They cant make distance and they also cannot play the loop, because at some point, Bloodlust kicks in. Without Bloodlust, they at least would be able to mindgame and maybe trick the Killer in doubling back, which allows to get to another Pallet. Ideally this would be another unsafe Loop.
Like I said, there should be way more Pallets but less safe ones. This would solve 2 things - Killers would not need to break that many Pallets in a Chase and can continue chasing, because there is not much they can do if the Survivor runs from Jungle Gym to Longwall, they cant mindgame those structures. And the second thing solved would be that one Survivor can use up too many Pallets, if someone is running around, predropping every Pallet, they are playing pretty safe and will most likely not get caught, but those Pallets are gone. And everyone can play like that. But more experienced Survivors can make more use out of unsafe Pallets and there would be plenty of them.
The only people who would be at disadvantage are either Survivors who can only run safe Tiles or Killers who rely too much on Bloodlust. And both groups need to git gud at this point.
I had normal results during the "No Bloodlust-Weekend" as Killer and as said earlier, sometimes I got outplayed, but this was fine by me. And as Survivor it felt good to be better than the Killer who was not able to catch me at an unsafe Loop because they still tried to just hold W the whole time.
In the end, it would just be nice if the better player would be rewarded.
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Bloodlust is irrelevant for those structures since you need to break the Pallets anyway, which removes Bloodlust.
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Bloodlust 1 needs to remain as long as survivors can buy so much by just holding W on maps like Midwich, Lerys, Rotten fields, Mothers dwelling etc basically maps that give you a long clear run. Especially so if there is plenty of windows. It also doesn’t really do much as pallets as many are too safe for Bloodlust 1 once dropped.
To remove BL1 you’d also need to remove the effectiveness of holding W as survivor.
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Bloodlust 1 is fine. It helps out a little but it takes a while to kick in first and breaking pallets and using your power removes it so there's little issue there. Bloodlust 2 and 3, while dumb don't pose much of an issue either because if the killer is relying on tiers 2 and 3 to even catch you then they've wasted A LOT of time doing so and put themselves in a horrible position.
Dead hard is another thing entirely. In theory I wouldn't have a problem with it, you use it to dodge and attack and buy a little bit of time but it's rarely ever like that. The most common use for it is so somebody can deadhard to a window or pallet and extend the chase and that really kinda sucks sometimes. Especially for a pallet, you as a killer can make a good read at a loop and catch a survivor off guard but they can just simply undo your read and dead hard to a pallet, throw it down and rob you of your down for 30 seconds or more. It really sucks sometimes because no matter how well you played the loop they can just simply rectify their mistake and there's really nothing you can do about it aside from praying that server detection favours you over them. Then there's the whole issue with people being able to dead hard over trappers bear traps which is just really dumb. But in all honesty I have no idea how you'd rework the perk without making it bad, in a certain way dead hard kinda reminds me of Flash from League of Legends. A spell that was so powerful is basically defined the game's ENTIRE balance philosphy. Although I'm not saying Dead Hard is that powerful but it gives a hell of a lot utility for what little cost it needs. I just wish it more like Lithe or something, that perk is pretty rewarding when you make good reads by gaining extra distance to another loop but you get nothing out of it if you're making mistakes.
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Well there it is. "We need Bloodlust because survivors just exist".
You don't "need" bloodlust.. You want bloodlust because instead of sneaking up on and mind gaming them you would rather just bloodlust them out in the open. Like what else is a survivor supposed to do? Every killer aside from Nurse already has a faster movement speed. Do you expect them to hold any other key aside from W when running away from you?
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Tbh you survivor mains are full of #########. I play both sides and and am very good at both and it’s getting boring how easy it is for me to escape as survivor lately and I literally use my ambulance build for fun which is botany knowledge, we’ll make it, resilience and that new Felix perk that gives +14% faster unhook and heal with each injured survivor and it’s disgustingly easy to get out as a solo 6-7 matches out of 10 and if I’m really selfish it’s even 7-8. You guys have dead hard which 90% of the time survivors go through me, idk I can’t with dead hard but often pc players can so idk what that is, you have sprint burst which lets survivors literally run at you and be invulnerable and make a huge distance which is another 30+ sec longer chase, than you have spine chill which gives you a notification 36 meters away, that is enough time to go hide in corners and be useless and leta not forget lately lots of med kits with borrowed time or syringe.
Before I get survivors sending me gifs with “this is bait” and other crap, I use kindred sometimes too and empathy and I see what you guys are doing which is basically being completely useless. You get 3 spine chill gamers with dead hard and med kits in a match which equals 3 bad loopers, 2 will be useless, 1 will get chased and throw pallet after pallet down and since no one is doing gens and no pallets left, who’s gonna run killer on TL wall? Exactly no one.
I can’t stop laughing when I hook a tea bagger with dead hard and when my bbq shows me 3 survivors crouched 40 sec away from me opposite side of the map.
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Do you think survivors should be able to waste so much time by just holding forwards? If its lerys you can just hold forward and mash spacebar too and take 1000 vaults as you hold forwards.
Survivors keep complaining that killers need to take “skill”, Spirit and freddy apparently take none they would have you believe and yet here they are defending wasting time by holding forwards.
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There is no equivalence... wanna know why?
PERK vs BUIlT-IN MECHANIC
Bloodlust isn’t even balanced in this game anymore. There are no more infinites and if you are getting ran at an “infinite” then that means you were always bad at chases to begin with.
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